Was siphoning gas, now guns

[mockturtle]

Is it legal to hold someone at gunpoint while you phone the police? Just curious.

 

[akrvbob]

mockturtle asked:
Is it legal to hold someone at gunpoint while you phone the police? Just curious.
= = = = = = = = = =

It is almost certainly illegal to pull a gun and aim it at someone if your life hasn't been threatened.

But that is the least of your problems!! Anyone who sees it happen (including the perp) can sue you for being traumatized by the event and has a very good chance to win!!!! You or your insurance company will pay BIG TIME!!!!!!!

Assuming you win the civil and criminal cases (which is unlikely) you still lose because the cost of the trial will devastate you financially. My CCW instructor told us the average cost of a trial involving a gun is $80,000. He pounded away at the point that even if you win, you still LOSE!!

NEVER PULL A GUN UNLESS YOU TRULY, DEEPLY AND HONESTLY FEAR YOU WILL DIE WITHOUT IT.
Bob

 

[mockturtle]

We had a guy in town who held a fugitive at gunpoint in his back yard, using his cell phone in the other hand to phone the police. He didn't get into any trouble but I suppose he may have considered his life might be in danger. If I found someone under my RV in the middle of the night I might consider myself in danger. Cutting into fuel lines could result in fire.

 

[Donedirtcheap]

Mock, I agree with what Bob says. I dont want to hijack the siphoning thread but since you asked. It may also depend on what state you are in. I understand that Texas has some provision for protecting your property. DO your own research and know each states laws. You may be charged with brandishing or some other clause if you went out to the guy siphoning . In Michigan you have the castle doctrine which allows you to protect yourself within your dwelling. If it has an attached garage and the incident happens in there, its part of your house. It also applies to your vehicle as it becomes your dwelling so to speak BUT you do not have the right to protect your property, NO not even your dog. It then all comes down to what Bob says and its going to make your life hell one way or the other.

If you are in your house in Mich and someone breaks in and ends up shot in the back, you are covered by the castle doctrine. Its not to argue or quibble about how he got shot in the back as it could happen in a struggle or in the heat of the moment. When they break in, the line has been crossed, bottom line is dont break in. It also brings up another issue which is a moral one. Do I really want to kill someone as they are heading out my back door with my TV? Well......I dont as I can replace the TV and I dont want to relive it in my nightmares. I will use it to protect my life or someone else life but I would never go beyond that. I would have to be to the point that I was going to be injured or killed. Yes, in Mich you do have the right to protect someone else who is about to be killed or seriously injured. Will there be a price to pay? Oh yes there will and that price will be determined by what comes down in those moments. Lets say its a wanted felon who's now attacking another victim or someone who is drunk attacking someone with a strong possibility that he really isn't out to kill them. In the first scenario there is a strong possibility that you will go home and in the second scenario a very strong possibility that you will be in jail, and maybe for a long time.

Not ranting on you, just trying to share. If you are able, take a cpl course sometime, it will be interesting and you dont have to get the permit. If you do get the permit you will fully realize what a huge responsibility it is and it will even make you a better citizen. I believe it will will also cast a vote by you to all the bad guys that there is one more good citizen out there that wont be a victim. I also believe that those of us who are armed are providing a form of second hand protection to those who oppose guns. When ever I suggest that those against gun ownership put some form of identifying marker or sign on the front of their house saying "THERE ARE NO GUNS IN THIS HOUSE", they get really mad at me. They just cant seem to put that sign up. I mean, what are they afraid of? Very strange.

 

[vanguy]

this happened at a company i worked for. they left one of the vans parked on the street overnight. in the morning all they found was a long hose from the filler tube, an empty gas can, a small puddle of gas, and a bigger puddle of puke. it was pretty easy to piece together what happened!

 

[mockturtle]

Sorry to have hijacked the thread. My question was purely hypothetical. First, I have a concealed weapons permit and am familiar with the laws in my home state as well as a few others and I know that laws vary from state to state. From an NRA website, 'The Armed Citizen':

Studies indicate that firearms are used over 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. Shooting usually can be justified only where crime constitutes an immediate, imminent threat to life, limb, or, in some cases, property.

[emphasis mine]

There are some example on this site: http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/15080/armed-citizen-35/

 

[flying kurbmaster]

I bet Imperial Tobacco would have interesting stats on smokers, if the op would have walked out brandishing a rifle instead of a tire iron and got shot by the siphoner who then claims self defence because he thought his life was in danger then go to jail for a year for stealing gaz, would that work.

 

[Donedirtcheap]

I bet Imperial Tobacco would have interesting stats on smokers, if the op would have walked out brandishing a rifle instead of a tire iron and got shot by the siphoner who then claims self defence because he thought his life was in danger then go to jail for a year for stealing gaz, would that work.

Nice edit as I tell them, post the sign, or it could be a different color house numbers, not a sign, but a way to indicate no guns in this house. It just doesn't seem to happen and I'm puzzled as to why.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

I didn't really want to get into it Do you have a sign on your house saying, I got guns and am dying to use them?:huh:

 

[Donedirtcheap]

Kurb, yes I have NRA and gun owners of America stickers on my car and anyone should assume that they are at risk when thinking about breaking into my house or any other house as they dont know who is armed. I do fire guns on my property at a regular interval and hope that it reaches the ears of any with questionable motives. I do want them to think I'm armed rather than unarmed.
If I opposed guns, and being somewhat principled, I would be happy to in some way indicate that my house has no guns. So all I say is if a person believes that people are basically good and we gun owners have nothing to fear, is that they should be principled, step forward and show us the way by promoting the fact that their dwellings are gun free. Until that happens I will continue to believe that they are benefiting from us gun owners and wont admit it. It just seems like an easy way to stand their ground, show their principals and win us over. It is or it isn't. its sort of a like a person criticizing me for having fire insurance yet that same person has fire insurance himself and doesn't want to admit it.

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Kurb, I also notice your loss of any good argument when you have to inject things like "I have guns and dying to use them" when as I stated above its the last thing I would ever WANT to have to do. I do feel the ultimate responsibility for me rests on me, not the state.

 

[MK7]

always park with a curb as close as possible to the driver side so no one can get under it.

This is an excellent tip. Damn thieves.

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Some sort of metal wrap would help definitely. I dont think anyone would take a grinder to a fuel line wrapped in metal, with all the sparks it would cause.

The scary thing about this is that some idiot with a grinder may be too stupid to think about his possible death, which may include yours if you're napping inside. If he's a crackhead, even worse.

 

[Donedirtcheap]

Kurb, this is an example of how the deterrent effect works. One particular incident back int he 80's involved a German couple on vacation in Florida who were killed during a car jacking. It was actually a time when people started demanding that their second amendment rights be upheld and the shall issue movement began. Carjackers would target Florida tourists after identifying the fact that they were in rental cars, head flown in to Florida and therefore could not be armed. Just like house numbers, they targeted those who they knew were unarmed. So.....they moved to a system of not identifying rental cars and citizens began arming themselves, resulting in a big drop in Florida's crime rate. If you dont know who is armed its kind of like Clint said.....Do you feel luck punk?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/miami/282189-miamidade-license-plates-2.html

 

[MK7]

We had a guy in town who held a fugitive at gunpoint in his back yard, using his cell phone in the other hand to phone the police. He didn't get into any trouble but I suppose he may have considered his life might be in danger. If I found someone under my RV in the middle of the night I might consider myself in danger. Cutting into fuel lines could result in fire.

But if he runs, therefore the "danger" is over, it will be very iffy if you were to threaten to shoot him if he doesn't stop and wait for the cops. This is pretty much what Citizens Arrest is, but scumbags will still sue and ruin your life and finances, win or lose.

And of course, if you shoot him in the back, you're screwed beyond belief.

 

[mockturtle]

Totally agree! And I was never suggesting that anyone would actually shoot someone for gas siphoning.

 

[Lucky mike]

I guess this is more a lesson in stealth......knowing ones surroundings , and parking remotely or out of the way in iffy areas sometimes has consequences......

of course this is one of the reasons I have the dog...it warns you ahead of time your to close and when the door of my rig opens always remember....dont worry about me , but more about the Husky that is about to attach to you with no mercy!!!!...(she likes big chew toys!)

Release the dogs!!!!.........never met a thief who called the cops!!!....never met anyone who could outrun Nikki!!!

 

[mockturtle]

I'm sorry that I started this hijack :dodgy: but catching a perpetrator flagrante delicto, it would be hard to just let him get away with impunity. And, in the dark, it would be hard to get his driver's license.

 

[compassrose]

Before any of you start broadcasting that you carry guns, you had better make sure you are in a state that recognizes that your vehicle is a residence. After being robbed (twice), we have learned the only good it does to call the cops is to get a report to file with the insurance company. First time we had several hundred dollars of cash "removed" from our house. Second time my Dad's 4WD pick up truck was towed by thieves out of our yard while I was at my fathers funeral. Both times the cops did NOTHING but file paperwork. And the thieves came back a couple nights later to get my Jeep (my security system went off). After that I sat up at night with a loaded gun (yes, I did tell the cops and the whole neighbourhood knew too). After two months of no sleep, we decided to unload the house.

David used to work home security. You can not stop a determined thief. But most thieves are lazy and will take whatever is easy. So make it hard to steal your stuff. Motion lights are good and you can get solar ones. Sirens are very good as thieves don't like attention being drawn to them. Do not make the mistake of thinking that prominently displayed security signage (even fake) doesn't work. That is the #1 deterrent. A sign stating that you have guns on board may encourage some to break in while you are in a store or restaurant. Also most public parks object strongly to anyone carrying a gun, loaded or unloaded.

Many cellphones take pictures. You could take a pic of the thief, auto and license plate.

 

[Donedirtcheap]

compass,
State doesn't have to recognize your vehicle as a residence but you do need to know that states laws pertaining to how weapons are transported. The major difference also being a CPL. You made good points and another that I would add is that many times crime is closely connected to a person. Its stuff like a friend of the kids friend who stops by with the gang or overhears conversations about what you have or when you are not home. In the example you gave its very strange that some random crook just happened down your street while you were at a funeral. Just a guess but I would say its someone who knows you or someone in the neighborhood that sees you coming and going. Often its someone shockingly close to you.
When I lived in Michigan I remember going to work one morning and while passing the usual houses I notice the yellow police tape all around a house. The grandson of these people had visited with one of his crackhead friends from Pontiac Mi. and in the way that kids do he was mouthing off about gramps and how he always had money hidden in his house. Well, a few days later the crack head broke in and bludgeoned gramps, grandma and one of their sons and his wife with a hammer.
I had a neighbor behind us and on the corner side street come over asking if we say anyone the day before at between 11:00 am and noon. I said no we are at work then, he said well someone kicked the door in and took the TV's and computer. That was the time that his wife took the youngest kid to some class for an hour. It was probably the dirtbags across the street, not some guy who traveled from Detroit and just happened to hit that house on that day within that one hour time frame. Impossible.
Just like in a house, anyone carrying in a vehicle with or without a permit should have the proper safe to store a weapon while going into buildings that do not allow carrying. Any gun in a house should be locked up if its not in direct control.

 

[GotSmart]

I had to pull a loaded weapon on a person three times in my life.

1. Steroid and Cocaine blasted neighbor who thought I insulted his girlfriend. Just seeing the 357 stopped him halfway over the fence, and kept him there long enough to hear my side of the story. He was nice to me after that.

2. Snatch and grab thief who saw boxes in a previously empty apartment. One look and he was gone. The cops were able to follow the wet footprint from him pissing himself for more than a block.

3. Another neighbor in the same complex that sent his girlfriends 10 year old through the window and took a everything he could carry. He threatened to stab me, and I drew down on him and called 911.

I moved out of that neighborhood, and the people left were sad to see me go. Apparently it had become much safer since I moved in, but I could not see risking my wife and new child over things.

I now have plenty of insurance, and would rather have new tools than used ones. I still make sure I am in a safer place.

 

[compassrose]

compass,
State doesn't have to recognize your vehicle as a residence

But it does with castle defense (probably called other things in different states). By not recognizing your vehicle as a residence gives them the right to search it under the same guidelines as a vehicle.

In the example you gave its very strange that some random crook just happened down your street while you were at a funeral. Just a guess but I would say its someone who knows you or someone in the neighborhood that sees you coming and going. Often its someone shockingly close to you.

Yes, it was my POS druggie neighbour who was sleeping with half the county commissioners who gave the thieves the rope to tow it out of our yard. Do you THINK the slut knew them? Her son (nice boy) was a friend of my daughters. He was banned from our yard and I told him if I caught ANYONE in our yard trying to steal anything, I would shoot first. No need for questions. He would not tell us who took the truck because it was his mom's dealers. One of our other neighbours had someone try to break into his house. They came home early (had only been gone 10 minutes or so) and spooked the thieves. They think they were after the gun collection (this was the same guy we sold David's 3 shot 410... apparently a 3 shot 410 is desirable). He paid a visit to the druggie and told her (in front of her husband... now divorced and he got custody of the kids) that if a single gun or anything else went missing, he was going to shoot her because only a person sitting right on top of the house would have know they had just left the house. My prayer was that she would rot. I think I got that one. A month after we moved out of the house, we drove back to pick up our huge (almost full) LP tank. Neighbour who was baby sitting the tank for us said she was diagnosed with advanced case of penicillin resistant Gonorrhea and had passed it to several of the county commissioners (who were in the process of getting divorces). Excuse me but YIPEEE!

have the proper safe to store a weapon while going into buildings that do not allow carrying

But seriously, how many do? Especially in a vehicle.

IF we had a gun, it would be under lock & key with extra ammo hidden. Also we would have a hidey-hole for times when we were in a public park. Not that we have a gun of any kind. I think for a carry permit, you have to have a registered gun. In my family, there are very few registered guns. It's just a tradition based on distrust of the government.

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BTW, I dislike dopers, "recreational" or hard core. They think nothing of stealing from you. That includes family members (who have also stolen from me).