The Russbus ;?D

[Fearnoevil]

Every once in a while I check out the prices on similar buses and so far I still believe I got a killer deal - just saw another identical E450 with 295K miles on it for $10,500, so $3,000 is still looking good, lol ;?D

 

[Fearnoevil]

So a friend texted me that there would be a reading tonight at Prairie Lights, a local book store in IC, and the featured author would be Dee Williams talking about her book "The Big Tiny - A built-it-myself memoir". It's less of a "How To Guide" than a memoir about that time in her life, about how almost dying from a heart disease caused her to reassess her life and priorities and to return to her "true self" and built a tiny home in the process, hmmm sounds familiar, well all except the almost dying part, lol. But I think we can all relate since it's probably that kind of introspection that drove many of us to decide to make a change and choose this alternative lifestyle.

Anyway, she was very good, quite a sense of humor and I thoroughly enjoyed her talk, even decided to buy her book. There were a lot of folks there, so I didn't get time to talk to her much, but I would love to find out more about how she made the actual transition, giving up almost everything to downsize so drastically (how DO you decide what to keep and what to jettison, stuff just gets to owning you, lol, hard decisions indeed). Fortunately I will have another chance, she mentioned having a pot luck open house Saturday evening at her brother's tiny home which is right here in IC, so that should be cool to see and maybe I'll get a chance to ask her.

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This just inspired me all the more to get busy on my tiny house on wheels, (just need more $$$ and time) ;?D

 

[Fearnoevil]

BEAUTIFUL DAY today, the weather here in Iowa has been amazing, way below average temps the last couple of months, definitely the coolest summer since I moved here 7 years ago, which is fine by me cuz I hate all that heat and humidity, I ain't no reptile, lol.

So I decided to get out and do some more demoing, finally going to tear into the inner skin and see what I'm dealing with. And of course nothing is as easy as it seems, got those overhead soffit covers down, pretty easy on the passengers' side, but of course on the side with the fold-up seats had to deal with drilling out the seatbelt harness anchors, but only a minor pita. Found spray foam in good shape which makes me happy.

But to get to the rest of the skin, I have to remove the window frames so I can peel the skin. I've also decided since the only full window which will be usable will be the one directly behind the driver seat, that it might be a good idea to swap it out for the 3rd one back that has the emergency exit built in. That way it will provide a nice big opening to let fresh air in, when parked of course ;?D. However when I removed the emergency exit window I not only discovered a lot of rust on the exterior pillars, but the skinny piece of outer siding stuck to the window and pulled off. This revealed rotting plywood wherever you looked and explains the delamination. Sucks! Here's a few pics to illustrate:

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I'm not sure exactly how far to go to fix this, a part of me wants to now remove the windows and cut out all the bad crap and re-skin it, that would be the "right thing" to do, lol. But I'm also pretty sure that can't be cheaply. But if anyone has a cheap (relatively speaking ;?) fix I love to hear it. What kind of materials would make a decent replacement?

Other wise the cheapest, but least best route, is to just patch and glue I suppose, aarrgghh, I get frozen with indecision at times like this, lol.

 

[stude53]

If you can expose the rest of the wood by removing interior skin, Look up "Wood Hardener" on Google.

I have used this type of liquid to restore wood's structural integrity, penetrating and hardening rotted window sills in a house so I could use plastic wood to fill and sand cracks before painting. Worked good.

Since you will re-skin interior walls, you can just harden the wood and skip painting and just reinstall windows with a good sealant.

Bob

 

[Fearnoevil]

Hey Stude53,
Well the main problem is that, sadly, the exterior is constructed of an incredibly thin plywood, I swear it's barely 3/16, with a 3/32" layer of fiberglass resin on top, so the wood is practically non-existent. As I was removing the window screws, I noticed that several were different, square head, as if they'd been removed for some service/replacement, and as easily as the windows came loose, I believe that the knuckleheads who did the work may not have used any sealant at all. It's as if they thought that the rubber gasket would do all the work sealing out the elements, so who needs silicone

It's in such bad shape that it crumbles to the touch, and is still wet from rains about a week ago, and unless it stays dry, I'm not sure if any treatment will work (but then I don't have any xp in this area so if I'm wrong I'd appreciate being set on the right path). Maybe I just need some dry weather and cover it with plastic tarps to give it a chance to dry out and then follow your advice. Sometimes I'm tempted to just rip all that ripply crap off and then maybe use metal roofing sheets as a cheap fix, lol. Might work, idk, any input is appreciated.
;?D

 

[SternWake]

So you are saying that the walls are basically from outside to inside, 3/32" fiberglass, 3/16 wood", and more fiberglass on the inside, or bare wood on the inside?

And the wood is rotted, and the fiberglass is delaminated from the wood?

Is the fiberglass still firm or is it squishy?

I work a lot with wood and fiberglass, and this does not sound like a fun repair. It kind of sounds like no amount of money would make me take on this repair job.

Back when I used to occasionally repair other's surfboards, some would need so much work, that building a new board from scratch would be easier. They'd ask me how much it would cost, and I'd say to do it properly, as much as a new surfboard, and it will weigh twice as much, and never ride the same again. I'd tell them to get over their sentimentality and ride it till it breaks while saving for a new board. But there was no way I was going to expend the effort or material required on a lost cause.

Not saying to junk your ride, just that the effort going into a "proper" repair might be overwhelming, expensive, and perhaps ineffective.


If the wood is so rotted it can be scraped off, and just bare fiberglass is left, then new plywood can be pressed into service with some thickened "fiberglass' resin. But getting it tight and bubble/void free is not so easy.

Basically resins come in 3 forms. Polyester, Vinylester, and Epoxy.

Polyester is cheapest and used the most, and is the easiest to work with. But it is not very cheap by the gallon, but compared to epoxy, it is.

Epoxy is the strongest and bonds strongest, but most ester resins will not properly cure on top of epoxy, or bond to it, though there are exceptions.

My fiberglass roof was attached to the metal roof, with drywall screws. Yes those screws which rust if you look at them and think about a glass of water. Screwing into or through fiberglass is not just as easy as a impact driver and a screw, and it is likely that all your damage was caused by someone not caring or being completely ignorant or both.

BTW, many people refer to caulk as silicone, but there are differences. Many people avoid silicone caulk, as it is extremely difficult to ever get anything to bond to a surface to which silicone has been applied, and then removed.

Automotive paint shops despise silicone, as it causes fisheyes.

Be very wary of where silicone caulk is used, and silicone spray for that matter too. If sanding a surface on which silicone was applied, then the surface should be scrubbed with acetone or lacquer thinner or some other hideous solvent before sanding begins.

I pretty much only work with epoxy now, and can just use rubbing alcohol to clean the laminating tools, though a 50/50 rubbing alcohol and distilled white vinegar mix seems to work even better.

Human skin is no barrier to acetone. Solvents are nasty things best avoided whenever possible.

 

[Fearnoevil]

It appears to be a resin, no fiberglass in it, on top of thin plywood which is just bare wood on the side where it was glued to the steel frame structure. So the plywood is rotting (at least in the part that's delaminated) but the resin is solid. Yeah just thinking of how to "repair" this stuff is giving me a headache and I agree that it's probably too damn much work (and cuz I'm inherently lazy, lol). That's why I'm seriously considering just ripping it off (mostly to get to the rust, clean and seal the metal surface if that's necessary?) and replacing it with a fairly cheap metal roofing material, something like this stuff:

It's less than 1/2 the price of RV siding PLUS I can just pick it up at Home Despot, so cheaper still and I would think it's durable enough. Anyone ever try using something like this?

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Oh and roger, no silicone caulk, that stuff is shite. I'd probably go with Sikaflex marine grade.

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How to close in the ends and around the windows is a bit of a challenge. I imagine some kind of J-channel over the ends and just caulk heck (neatly ;?) out of it would work, but windows may be a tougher challenge, at least to keep it clean looking as opposed to the redneck version, which would include tastefully applied duct tape accents, lol.

 

[Fearnoevil]

Now that I think about it, it might not be that easy to remove if all the spray foam was applied directly to the plywood, might make a real mess, or it could just come right off, any thoughts on that?

Also, what if I just put the siding on over the existing skin and just drill and screw the heck out of it? Certainly easier, plus I think stronger due to leaving the skin intact and probably more waterproof, as long as I get the screws and windows sealed really well.
;?D

 

[stude53]

If there is enough solid plywood you can screw into, maybe. You may need to put framing studs in the interior to attach the outside skin securely.

Hard to know without seeing what you are dealing with overall.

Bob

 

[Fearnoevil]

I have decided to definitely add siding over the existing skin, and I'll look at that GE sealant too.

Bob, I think there's enough existing studs, but it also might depend on the lengths I can get the siding in as to whether I'll need to add some, so thanks for that idea ;?D

So I've got the interior stripped and just waiting for a certain check to come in so I can get busy buying the materials to start Phase 1 of the RussBuss conversion, waiting with great anticipation for that, lol.

The rear of the bus has more rust of the lower wall members so I may have some replacing to do. The very bottom channel is in really bad shape and needs replacing, but that sounds like a lot of work so I may just weld a plate across it and build around it since it will be out of sight.


It may work out to my advantage, as it's got this short little emergency exit door back there, (never understood why it's so short, I've whacked my head a few times already) and I fear tall folks could knock themselves out completely trying to exit in a real emergency, :dodgy:. Personally I think it was designed by a midget trying to get even, lol. Anyway, this is where the bed is going to be and that is going to make it even harder to get in and out, which I'll want to do to get to the porch.
Here's a pic...

So my idea is to first remove the door and frame, cut out the cross piece above the door, remove the lights up top and put a new cross brace there, reinstall the door frame and then add a new cross brace at the bottom of the door. I'll also add a few more braces top and bottom, from the door pillars to the outer rear pillars.

That should put the door in a comfortable position to get in and out, but I had also planned on having some storage under the bed accessible through the back door which I'd still like to do. So to keep that I'm going to look at installing a long short hatch, probably from a marine application, if it's cost effective. I could just access it from above by building an access in the bed platform, so I'll have to decide which will work best (and what's going to be stored down there).

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Kills me how they decided to skimp on spray foam in some places, makes no sense to me, either put it in or don't, why leave patches uncovered?

Another issue I'm hesitating to deal with is the floor - I'm curious as to what the condition is under there (could be bad if the walls are any , but it may be hiding some major problem. However there doesn't seem to be anything apparently wrong, seems really sound, and so I'm probably just going to add a layer of blue foam and then add flooring.

 

[Fearnoevil]

Yeah that's a problem I constantly have to keep balanced, I tend to get really meticulous, seeking perfection and usually going overboard at every opportunity , lol, so I have to keep reminding myself that there is such a thing as good enough. I also agree on the spray foam, I've got a couple different kinds coming in the mail so I can test which works best to fill in the gaps. I'm also planning on furring out the walls using 1-3/8" metal studs and then filling that in with blue foam panels for additional insulation, same with the ceiling, so that should give me pretty decent insulation overall.

As for the roof, I mentioned somewhere that there's 3 different kinds of material used on the skin of this bus (well 4 if you add the metal in the cab area). The main exterior skin is as described, and then the corners and the "nose" at the front section of the roof are made of your standard fiberglass cloth/resin, and that stuff is flexible and not very strong and is cracked in several places (noticed that it's pretty soft when I was up on the roof looking at the front "nose" area). Then there's the roof itself which is much stiffer/stronger stuff and is in really good shape - no leaks and I'm able to walk on it without any problem and I weight around 200lbs (well on a good day ;?). And roger on that insulating paint, sounds like good stuff, but is that stuff more like an elastomeric sealing compound? And if not have you heard of this stuff, "Insuladd Insulating Paint Additive", it's ceramic microbeads which can be added to paint and coatings?

For the rust I bought a little Bosch angle grinder with wire wheels (got a great deal on a factory refurb), mostly to do the underside to clean it up prior to spraying sealant down there, but yeah I'll be hitting the rust spots inside before applying some paint. And the reason I'm thinking of removing/replacing some of the supports is mostly because I want to raise that door. With the added height of the bed, that opening is down to a very short space and I really don't want to be continually whacking my head when I access the porch.

 

[Patrick46]

I'd be inclimnded to coat any and all those frames with Ospho before doing anything else!
Ospho (available at any hardware store), is a phosphoric acid that transforms rust to iron phosphate. Once it dries, you can paint right over it, in which case I'd be inclined (again) to use X-O Rust, or Rustoleum. This should stop most of the rust in it's tracks. DON'T SKIMP on these steps.

As for the skin of your bus, I think I'd reskin the whole thing with aluminum panels. It may cost a bit more then other things, but you've have a nice, new, rust resistant surface. As long as the framework is coated, you shouldn't have any issues with electrolysis.

 

[SternWake]

Ospho is a good product. My issue with it is that one can keep applying it with a green scotchbrite pad and it will work like naval Jelly and actually dissolve the rust down to bare metal, and naval jelly probably works better at removing the rust, where as Ospho is designed to make the rust turn black and prep it for painting. It also cleans the bare metal and paint nicely and allows paint to stick very well. I like wiping any dried powder off with denatured Alcohol before applying paint. Apply and let it work for a bit then go over it with the scotchbrite and the black areas will get smaller as the rust is removed down to bare steel.

You can;t stop rust completely, but when removed completely down to bare steel, you can come very close especially when topcoated with a good paint.

As for rust preventing paint, rustoleum is kinda garbage compared to some others. I do like their tops side yacht enamel, but 24 hours between coats makes it slow. Their normal paint is no better at preventing rust than any other low dollar paint, and is miles behind a product such as rust bullett.

The ceramic insulating microbeads added to the paint make it rough like 120 grit sandpaper. Then the surface collects dirt and grime and is not easy to remove. I tried making it smooth with many coats of regular paint over the layers with the additive and never got a smooth appearance and it collects grime and is hard to clean, and I have no proof it actually does any insulating, but have not tested it either, just kind of wish i never heard of the product as it increased the workload and reduced the final outcome appearance.

I'll use it to build paint thickness or for as a non slip additive to paint, but never again on any flat surface which I want to look good when done.

My experience with spray foam is a bad one. if it is not allowed to expand fully, it remains corrosive. Lots of vans from the 70's were eaten from the inside out where the foam was applied to painted steel. I'd dig it away from the rusted steel and make sure to get some ospho in there. You will be needing lots of Nitrile gloves and dollar store scrubbie sponges to get the ospho where needed. It is as thin as water and can really penetrate the rust, so the second application is a good recommendation.

Ospho is not going to burn your skin when in direct contact, but it is not something you want your skin absorbing. it releases a strange smell as it turns the rust black.

 

[LeeRevell]

Ospho likely contains a weak form of phospforic acid. I haven't heard of it but will check it out. I have rust issues with my E150.

 

[SternWake]

All rust converters contain phosphoric acid at some concentration. So does Coca cola which is why you hear about people treating rust with that.

Good rust intended paints have some too. I've used the thicker permatex rust converter stuff, the Ospho is superior. There is a similar "prep and etch" product sold in large quantities at home depot and similar for less $ than Ospho which is about 13$ for less than 2 quarts. I've soaked rusty bolts and nuts in ospho overnight and they come out gray, rust free and with a little cleaning and some wire brush, ready to return to duty, or be painted. Obviously not the threads though. Metal treated with Ospho needs to be painted afterward. If left untreated, it turns white after getting wet and rust will eventually poke through again, but at a much reduced rate/level.

Sold at ACe hardware.

 

[Fearnoevil]

Thanks guys for the great advice, I hadn't thought about fixing the rust with Ospho, so that's now on my shopping list and the same for Rust Bullet and latex gloves. If it has phosphoric acid, even a weak solution, you definitely want to avoid extended contact with that as chronic exposure to a weak solution can cause a variety of dermatitis, burns and ulcers.
And I guess I had been hoping to avoid scraping foam to get at the wall studs, but as my hero Mike Holmes always says, you gotta make it right, so guess that's what I'll be doing this weekend, lol. So throw in a face shield, wire brushes and painters and brushes as well. Oh and a Tyvek suit just in case, stuff could be flying when I put that grinder and ospho to work

And thanks a ton SternWake for the info on that paint insulation additive, I can just see how that "textured" look could quickly accumulate dirt, and being under the deck would make it triply hard to keep clean, felt like I just dodged a bullet, whew .

 

[akrvbob]

See what happen when the insanity runs rampant?

Now if only we could do something about the locusts?
Bob

 

[offroad]

Know it's been a month since last post. But how is the build going?

 

[Ballenxj]

WOW! I can't believe I missed this thread. Lots of good information in here. Good luck with your Russbus.

 

[Fearnoevil]

Okay, for an update, I've finished cleaning up the inside, got the ribs treated with Ospho (hard stuff to find round these parts, although it is on Amazon if anyone else has the same problem). I fixed a bad starter that put a kink in things for a bit, but since that's fixed I've been able to change all the fluids (just finished the rear differential today ;?) except for the transmission which I'm going to try to do tomorrow, going to do the whole flush/change so keeping my fingers crossed on that one :-/.

The iron for the deck is getting delivered Tuesday or Wednesday so I'll start on that soon. I have run into an unexpected "engineering" problem, very simple but is preventing me from going with my original plan, that of penetrating the roof with the supports. Seems that because of the wheel chair access, the two sides of the bus aren't identical - that is the vertical supports don't line up - so due to the differences I can't line up my posts. That and I failed to really examine/measure the angle of the roof at the penetrations, which turns out to be extremely steep at the lowest starting point, which means the roof jacks won't work properly.

Sooooo, I was left looking at probably having to bolt the posts to the exterior of the bus, which I really didn't like - one for appearances and two because I'm planning on residing the bus with a ribbed roofing metal and couldn't figure a way to do that in a way that looked decent and didn't create all kinds of leaks along the sides if I cut around each of those vertical posts. But then I thought :idea: what if I went ahead and put the posts on the exterior, the full height of the bus, then put furring strips in between the gaps, then filled those spaces with 1 1/2" blue foam panels, wrapped it in Tyvek and then sided with the roofing metal?

That would solve several problems, I won't have to deal with the roof penetrations (which I admit were an added challenge and possibly a problem waiting to happen), I can now remove and enclose all those windows I'm not going to be using, the insulation just got a lot easier and last but not least, I could keep from loosing 3" of width in the interior which, with the very limited space I have, was causing me a couple of headaches trying to fit certain fixtures in there (and yeah, 3" can be as long as a mile when you really need it ;?) So today I spent an hour talking to a guy at Lowes who was, conveniently a retired roofing contractor, really nice older gentleman and really knowledgeable (and seemed to like helping me McGyver a solution to my problem). He helped me choose the best materials, including some stuff I didn't know about called closure strips designed to fit whatever style of metal roofing profile I choose (beats trying to fill those spaces with expensive marine caulk ;?).

The only challenging part will be how to seal the top/roof area and leading edge but I think a roll of metal flashing, 3M adhesive tape, Sikaflex RV roof adhesive/sealant, Eternabond sealing tape and a final coating of elastomeric ceramic roof paint, that should do the trick (plenty of overkill, just the way I like it ). Not absolutely sure, but I think this is going to work, and is as simple a method as possible all things considered ;?D