starting issues 1987 Dodge B250

[Kaylee]

No idea.
Which makes more sense?
The kind Marine was confident it was the issue, and that it would be a trivial fix, but the parts guy store had that scary vacant "WTF" look.

 

[B and C]

Easy fix to me means a mounting bolt the engine installer forgot to torque down (or didn't put in). Probably the top one as it is a little harder to get to and would allow the starter to fall out enough when the lower bolt loosened. The bendix wouldn't engage the teeth on the flexplate with it canted like that. I know this is worse than greek for Kaylee

 

[highdesertranger]

when dealing with parts store people look for the old guy/girl with grey hair and glasses. yes some of the best parts people I have dealt with have been female. I also try to stay away from Orielly's and Autozone, you may-as-well go to the drive up window at Jack in the box and ask them. highdesertranger

 

[Firtree]

Uncle a WWII Marine Ranger, Makin Island

 

[Elbear1]

Well one thing I was always thinking auto parts wont have a loose bolt. You need to pull another bolt out and go to a hardware store and get a matching length and thread pitch. Then get some blue loctite for them. Or go to a junkyard.

 

[Kaylee]

Thanks y'all! Very helpful info.

Update:
Phoned around, and asked at The Library.
Only one local shop was willing to look at it, and not until tomorrow pm.
I'm hoping The Marine will notice me, and help.

Easy fix to me means a mounting bolt the engine installer forgot to torque down (or didn't put in). Probably the top one as it is a little harder to get to and would allow the starter to fall out enough when the lower bolt loosened. The bendix wouldn't engage the teeth on the flexplate with it canted like that. I know this is worse than greek for Kaylee

You explained it so well that that that made perfect sense to me.

Is it possible that the auto parts guy (gray-haired & older than me) was having a Morning morning brain fart?
Maybe I'll wander over again, after lunch.

Are starter bolts a standard size?
If so, maybe I could borrow the right size wrench and try doing it myself.
Note: I have very weak hands due to 3 hand injuries in my youth followed by 3 decades of heavy keyboard use.

 

[B and C]

IIRC, those starter bolts are a standard size but I think they are a hardened bolt and not the type you would get at a hardware store (see below). If you look at the head of the existing one, there are markings to indicate hardness: https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/bolt-grade-chart.aspx

An auto parts store should have one though. An ACE hardware store might too as the ones I have been in have a pretty good bolt section.

 

[Qxxx]

Kaylee Serenity, you should still get one of those brush tools and clean the battery terminals. Starter motors draw up to 200 Amps when cranking and some oxidation on the terminals will have a big effect. Can be done now.

Whenever there is a problem, of course there can be multiple causes. However, it helps to have a list of the "most" common causes for each type problem - usually meaning starting with the easy stuff and going to the more complicated. Different people will have different ideas. Eg,

- starter don't crank: loose battery terminals, oxidized battery terminals, bad wires, bad starter solenoid (thus pound on it with a wrench), bad starter motor, flukey switch on automatic shifter.

- engine runs rough: bad distributor cap or points, bad distributor timing adjustment, spark plugs need cleaning and regapping, bad spark plug wires, dirty EGR valve, dirty carburetor, gas filter needs replacing, gas pump is flukey.

- engine leaking lots of oil: check oil pan nut is tight, then oof.

This way, many commonly-occurring and easily fixed things can be prioritized and checked without needing to go to the shop. General maintenance issues. Once you eliminate the most common things, then address the more complicated issues.

 

[bonvanroulez]

About 30 seconds of Googling produced a wealth of information about Dodge starter bolts.

Using keywords:
dodge 360 starter bolts
mopar small block starter bolts

Produced plenty of information, and even suppliers for the hardware kit.
The parts should be common to Mopars from the 70s, 80s, 90s.

The upper is a stud threaded into the bellhousing.
The lower is a bolt.
The threads into the bellhousing, upper and lower,  are 7/16" x 14 pitch.
The nut for the stud is fine-pitch;  7/16" x 20 pitch.
The stud on top may facilitate installing a starter by supporting its weight,
but many people reported simply using the same bolt top and bottom, 7/16" x 14 pitch x 1.25" - 1.5" long.

The parts should come from the specialty parts area, not the galvanized hardware grade bins, grade 5 or grade 8 bolt with flanged head, or in case of the stud nut a grade 5 or 8 flange nut. 
Any well-stocked hardware or auto parts store should have these.

The wrench size for the above will be 5/8".

It appears that the Mopar starter is grounded through the mounting hardware so a loose starter could cause the intermittent no-crank condition.

 

[Kaylee]

Thanks!
When I looked at the battery connectors yesterday, they did have some corrosion, which kind of made me happy in hopes that that was "all" that was wrong.
The Marine's inspection made me much happier.

Any suggestions for kludging something to use to clean the connectors?

I'm ~50 miles from the closest Walmart, ~20 miles from the closest real hardware store.

bonvanroulez: Thanks, but please keep in mind that (as I"ve noted in previous repair threads), most online auto parts store sites do not work with the browser security settings I have to use (I use my laptop to "build" and distribute cybersecurity tools, so I must use a much higher level of security than "normal" surfers).
That's why I'm particularly thankful for folks who can do that searching for me.

Thanks Brian for confirming that a missing bolt is a reasonable cause, and explaining it well enough that I got it (ok, some of that was Greek to me, but enough permeated to reassure me).
I'm still hoping the Marine will wander by.

Meanwhile, I'm using the free wifi to do some live Server testing. woo-hoo.


Speaking of Monday morning brain farts...

Is it possible that the auto parts guy (gray-haired & older than me) was having a Morning Monday morning brain fart?

There, fixed that for me.

 

[highdesertranger]

I still haven't heard if it's a starter mounting bolt or not? everyone seems to be assuming that, did I miss something?

the old guy at the parts store should have been able to help you. there is a section in parts stores called the help section, the correct mounting bolts should be there.

highdesertranger

 

[Qxxx]

"Any suggestions for kludging something to use to clean the connectors?"

Don't need a kludge. These can be had at the auto parts store across the street, etc. Wire brush.

https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool-W147C-Terminal-Cleaning/dp/B004BTV82U

 

[B and C]

It was an assumption based on what was said. Mounting bolt seems to fit the bill as the engine was just swapped by a not so great mechanic. I can't imagine a bolt out of the starter itself unless someone worked on just the starter. My $0.02 worth.

 

[highdesertranger]

I agree that more than likely it's a mounting bolt, but missing a mounting bolt will not stop the starter from turning over. unless it was so loose it lost it's ground but in that case it would never start the van or would make such a god awful noise when trying to start it.

like I said before, it's very difficult to do diagnosis over the internet.

Kaylee can you post a picture of the missing bolt?

highdesertranger

 

[Kaylee]

Thanks!

HDR: Once the parking lot clears out, I'll try to take a picture. I'm kicking myself for not asking Kind Marine to snap a pic.
I'm still hoping he'll pop by (he's a regular Library free wifi-er, with no home internet).


Been mostly working on dreary data analysis & live Server testing a 2nd new component, so it wasn't a wasted day.

TFIC:
Pro-tip for Newbs: If/when you're going to breakdown, hope that it'll be somewhere with decent free wifi.
Also... after the initial stress/gut-dive, try to find something/anything that could-be-worse or that's even a tiny shard of silver lining.
I keep thinking: it could be worse, my entire engine could have seized... and/or it could be mid-January.

Which reminds me... all breakdowns, even relatively wee ones, qualify for raiding one's Emergency Chocolate!

( TFIC == Tongue Firmly In Cheek )

 

[Kaylee]

Update:
After the Library closed & parking lot cleared out, I did crawl under it.
Um, it was all Visual Greek to me. #eek#

The auto parts store had offered to jump it so I could drive to the repair shop where I had made an appointment.
Next day, they tried, but, um, the starter being seriously wonky, it didn't start.

The repair shop is only a half mile away, but Liability Paranoia is apparently strong up here, so it took me a couple of hours worth of phoning around to find the cheapest tow quote was $120.
Yes.
Seriously.
I kid you not.

I tried the Legion/VFW (as had been suggested a few months ago), figuring that a tow-rope (whatever-it's-called) would be a real no-brainer in pickup country, but the phone number only gave me error messages. Tried emailing another Veterans group, never heard back.

By then, the appointment window had closed, and their next was in August.
Did throw myself on the office manager's mercy (politeness is always wise), and she did recommend an outfit in a town 20 miles away.

Turned out it was the same company that helped me out last Fall, when my muffler broke. They didn't have the time to repair it, but they got me in, wired it up, and didn't charge me a penny. Left a very good impression on me.

Got thru to them this morning, explained what the Marine had seen, they agreed to squeeze me in, and arrange a tow at what he promised would be less than the other outfit (even though it's 20 not 0.5 miles).
Am still waiting for the tow, but he had said they'd probably do it as a low priority thing, that I could "camp" overnight in their parking lot and they'd look at it first thing in the morning.

Also, last night, received a fresh donation to my Engine Repair Fund that should be enough to cover it.
A huge thanks to the kind CRVL member who sent that!

Thanks for all the info & support y'all!
Will probably have no wifi at the shop, but will update tomorrow... I hope.

 

[highdesertranger]

well I guess that's good news. keep us up to date.

BTW it takes 2 people that know how to tow a vehicle with a tow strap to pull it off.

highdesertranger

 

[user 423]

Kaylee:

Check to see if your auto insurance has a roadside assistance plan available.

Most companies offer that at a pretty reasonable cost these days.

State Farm used to reimburse for tows but now they will send a truck out like AAA does.

 

[Kaylee]

Update:
Yup, the bolt was missing, but apparently the starter was dead, so they had to replace it.

Brace yourselves...

total cost, including tow: $400
(plus a few pennies)

The biggest single item was labor, which was recorded as 1.5 hours.
It definitely did not take 1.5 hours (took about 1/2 an hour).
... unless, of course, they had a TARDIS (HDR: that's a reference to a classic SciFi TV series involving Time Travel).

There was a small but annoying charge of $11.17 for "shop supplies".
I do understand that there's often a few wee things that add up, but this was a no-brainer part swap.

I had asked for their opinion about the oil leak, but they literally said nothing about anything else, even when I reminded them.
The young Marine had noticed it without being told about it, and had suggested a cause.

Grrr!Argh!
... but, the starter works better than ever in the time I've owned it, and I can get back to The Forest in time for several back-to-back not-hot days, so it could be far worse.
Also, my two pound box of hashbrowns arrived, and I was able to do some stressful phone tasks while in the big town (lots of bars, unlike my semi-homebase town).

Thanks to everyone here who helped!

 

[highdesertranger]

yeah in California shops are not allowed to do that generic shop supplies thing and charge for it. everything that they charge for must be itemized on the bill.

boy 400 bucks I hope that was at least a brand new not rebuilt starter. what kind of warranty did you get on that puppy.

highdesertranger