Solar Blvd Portable 160W Set

[MarkK]

I just got mine set up, have some questions, but first some info.

The set weighs 30 pounds, not 40. The box they came in was extremely well packed, and shipping was fast. One of the corner protectors was cracked, but all else seemed fine. Be careful where you open it, aluminum drill burrs abound.

 Currently I have pos and neg fuses, and a small switch to turn the load off until I make all connections, then I flip it on. Used SAE connectors.

The controller is the cheap one you see on Amazon for $20. To my door, including the carrying case was $235. For me the case seemed like cheap protection and makes toting it simple.

My RV does have a small 50w roof panel which is run through an older Specialty Concepts Mark 15 pwm controller installed inside close to the batteries. As you can see from the pictures I have the run from the portable panel's controller going to the batteries but wonder if it makes more sense to bypass the cheap controller and run my wire up to the roof panel and tie in there thus utilizing the nicer pwm controller?

 

[MarkK]

Couldn't figure out how to attach a second image.

 

[John61CT]

Yes, better quality SC near the bank, ideally series the two portables to longer distance lighter gauge wires less voltage drop.

Give us links to your better SC, and the panel specs.

 

[MarkK]

Because of the existing panel I don't think series is workable.

Http://specialtyconcepts.com/SPECIALTY_CONCEPTS_PDF_FILES/MARK_20_INSTRUC_MANUAL.PDF

http://www.effectivesolar.com/PDF/MARK_15_SPEC_SHEET.pdf

 

[tx2sturgis]

All of the commonly available PWM controllers (that I'm familiar with) will not accept 12v panels in series if charging 12v batteries, because the VOC is too high.


Of course the MPPT controllers will.

 

[jimindenver]

I had bought one of these to use for demonstration and sold it along with the MPPT controller to go with it to people that needed them before I would at the RTR. I suggest a decent set of 50 foot cables to go between the panels and a charge controller near the batteries and for several reasons.

First the controller is glued to the panel so it will be hard to remove and isn't worth the effort if you could. I found them for $12 under various brands and $16 gets you a 30 amp.

Second the controller is just minimally functional with limited settings, just setting it is a pain and it loses them when you disconnect. A controller by the battery will stay connected when you put the panels away.

Last thing is you will get the chance to get a decent controller be it a inexpensive MPPT to squeeze as much as possible out of the panels or just a more user friendly PWM with more settings and features you can use. MPPT would be $100 or less with a decent PWM maybe half of that.

By the way the portable I sold is my friends second. Even using the controller that came with it he is thrilled to have gone from running his generator every day and killing his battery to having 320 watts tracking the sun all day. He never runs his generator, he has more power than he can use and the battery we thought was toast is happier than ever.

 

[John61CT]

Yes sorry for the higher-volt serial advantage I meant a MPPT like Victron 75/15, under $100.

New panel specs?

 

[MarkK]

This is where it gets fuzzy in my head given reading Solar Bob's writings and only giving credence to the Bogart SC2030. But that is a spendy unit.

Other than the Victron recommendation, which PWM's have setting adjustability for half the cost of a Bogart?

 

[Trebor English]

From the picture of the battery in the original post it isn't clear if the battery is sealed or flooded.  If it is flooded a hydrometer will tell if it is getting charged enough.  Otherwise a voltmeter will tell a lot if you check it several times during the day.  If you have 14.4 volts by noon, that's a good sign.

The controller in the second picture looks exactly like the one I have.  Mine does not forget the settings when it has no power.  It doesn't die if it has a panel input with no battery connection.  

My recommendation is to leave the original 50 watt panel and the original controller alone.  The new panels may be different enough from the original to not play well together sharing a controller.  In any case, being portable and tilted and shaded differently they will be different.  

If you are considering upgrading something because you still want more power, a complete set for $235 will double the power.  I don't believe just switching to a higher price controller will increase the power into the battery anywhere near that amount.  Some may disagree.  

The controller you have has the bulk stage (constant on) when the voltage is below the constant voltage set point.  The constant voltage set point can be set in tenth volt steps.  There is no premature stopping of the charging, it keeps going till the sun goes down.  What adjustability are you looking for at half the price of a Bogart?

 

[jonsun]

This is where it gets fuzzy in my head given reading Solar Bob's writings and only giving credence to the Bogart SC2030. But that is a spendy unit.

Other than the Victron recommendation, which PWM's have setting adjustability for half the cost of a Bogart?

His stuff is great but dated now. The big point to take from him is the absorption voltage. There are now MPPT's that are pretty cheap and have user adjustable set points. When he wrote that they were all $400+.

effectively any controller with an external monitor, DIP switches, or the ability to connect a laptop or bluetooth will have real user programming from my research. The $130 MPPT units on amazon that come with an MT-50 controller have it. You certainly do not need an MPPT with 17v panels but given that you can get user programmable ones so cheap now it just makes sense. And I dont know of any cheaper PWM's off hand below the grade of a MS TS-45.

I dont not suggest running series though, the voltage drop over 10 gauge isnt going to go below 15v and you will be charging at 80w above your bulk stage setpoint....which is going to be most of the time if you've adequately sized your system. i.e. you're not drawing the battery down to 20% or something everyday. MPPT's DO NOT (and dont let them tell you otherwise without hardcore proof) continue to do their thing outside the bulk phase. So if you wire them up as34v panels most of the day you're in absorption only getting 160w / 34v = 4.7 amps vs a real world ~9 amps normally.

 

[MarkK]

From the picture of the battery in the original post it isn't clear if the battery is sealed or flooded.  If it is flooded a hydrometer will tell if it is getting charged enough.  Otherwise a voltmeter will tell a lot if you check it several times during the day.  If you have 14.4 volts by noon, that's a good sign.

The controller in the second picture looks exactly like the one I have.  Mine does not forget the settings when it has no power.  It doesn't die if it has a panel input with no battery connection.  

My recommendation is to leave the original 50 watt panel and the original controller alone.  The new panels may be different enough from the original to not play well together sharing a controller.  In any case, being portable and tilted and shaded differently they will be different.  

If you are considering upgrading something because you still want more power, a complete set for $235 will double the power.  I don't believe just switching to a higher price controller will increase the power into the battery anywhere near that amount.  Some may disagree.  

The controller you have has the bulk stage (constant on) when the voltage is below the constant voltage set point.  The constant voltage set point can be set in tenth volt steps.  There is no premature stopping of the charging, it keeps going till the sun goes down.  What adjustability are you looking for at half the price of a Bogart?

They are Lifeline 31XT's, AGM. I started out at 12.3 this morning and left for a few hours setting the panel in a general direction to capture most of the sun while away. Left before the sun came out, and as such don't know if the controller read 14.6 for what the manufacturer states is the equalization stage which I set due to the 25' run of 12 awg wire to make up for loss. It has been running at float charge from what I can see, 13.6, with the battery now reading 13.0 at 5 pm. Not sure how to get it to push the 14.6.

 

[jimindenver]

The Eco-worthy 20a MPPT controller can be had from their site for $100, less on ebay. I have used them for 5 years, they are adjustable with a LED display. I have never had one fry. Would you get more power parallel vs series would be a interesting test.

As for does a MPPT controller continue to do it's thing after the bulk stage? That depends on what you mean by its thing. The MPPT program that controls the voltage in bulk mode stops functioning in absorb and float. It stops because there is no longer a need to control the voltage because the battery controlling both the voltage and acceptance rate. It also searches the array for the sweet spot that creates the most amps. The thing is the MPPT program is not what takes the excess volts and creates amps. The buck converter is. The power comes in from the panels as DC, is converted to AC and then back to DC again. It is what takes high voltage/low amps and allows it to come out low voltage/high amps to a PWM controller. There is no by pass of the buck converter to the PWM controller and you still get the benefit of the conversion.

I will have to see how many of the graphs and schematic was lost to Photobucket but yes I have proof. It started when I realized I could put a 15a load on a 230w panel with a MPPT controller in float and not have the batteries voltage drop. The panel was a high voltage panel with a Voc of 34 and was rated for under 9 amps Isc. Were the buck converter not still doing its thing the battery should have started dropping in voltage once the load passed 9 amps. I have seen my three panels on the roof of the trailer that are run in series for 105v and under 9 amps Isc produce 45 amps in absorb and float. Again without the buck converter I should see 9 amps and a lot of wasted voltage. Even running them in parallel would only produce 27a in absorb and float without the buck converter.

So if you are interested in starting a thread on the workings of a MPPT controller and are willing to accept it when proof is presented, then I am game. Should I not be able to bring up the graphs then I can have one of the controllers do a log and create a new graph. It is something I see from my system every day and I would not be able to do the things I do without it.

That said I agree that while a MPPT controller would get the most out of a single portable, a second portable would provide more additional power.

 

[Trebor English]

Not sure how to get it to push the 14.6.

Mine came with an instruction sheet with English on one side.  Think of words meaning differently.  There is one programmable voltage.  I set mine to 14.2  The instruction sheet uses the word float.  It is a constant voltage charge that comes after the time when it is constantly on.  The constant on charges with a current that is the max the panels can produce and it doesn't change much, kind of like constant current, but it varies with clouds, etc.  Some people might use the word bulk.  When the battery voltage gets up to the set point it goes on and off to keep the battery at the desired voltage.  While it is pulsing the on percentage varies.  The on percentage varying would be a modulation of the pulse width, PWM.

The resistance of 25 feet of #12 wire will cause a voltage drop making the voltage at the controller higher than the voltage at the battery causing the PWM to shut off sooner than it should.  A moment later with no current, no voltage drop, the controller will, sensing the actual, lower, battery voltage, turn back on sooner.  It averages.  Measure the voltage at the battery and adjust the controller set point accordingly.  If you get a longer or fatter extension cord reevaluate at that time.

It might be gooder,  most bestest to have shorter welding cable rather than 25 feet of #12 but what you have can work well enough.  With 20 volt panels and 15 volts at the battery the 5 volt difference will push current through the battery charging it.  Welding cable is too heavy to drag out every day.

I looked at the Lifeline pdf file.  They recommend 14.3 volts at 77 degrees F for absorption.  Look at their document for other temperatures.

 

[MarkK]

Jim,

I'm very new to this, just trying to use proper terms and understand what I think I need to know. I looked up the controller you mentioned. I am not clear what the manual is saying here.

1、When the LCD shows “ABSORB” or “FLOAT”, the charging is not using MPPT, it uses PWM to control the precise voltage to protect the battery. I thought the point of mppt is to up the amps with the extra volts it can't send to the batteries. Why wouldn't it be using the "buck controller" to send more amps?

2、The converter in the MPPT is the buck type and only charges when the voltage of the solar panel is higher than the battery voltage. I thought all panels have a higher voltage than batteries?

when does the mppt buck type actually engage?

 

[MarkK]

Mine came with an instruction sheet with English on one side.  Think of words meaning differently.  There is one programmable voltage.  I set mine to 14.2  The instruction sheet uses the word float.  It is a constant voltage charge that comes after the time when it is constantly on.  The constant on charges with a current that is the max the panels can produce and it doesn't change much, kind of like constant current, but it varies with clouds, etc.  Some people might use the word bulk.  When the battery voltage gets up to the set point it goes on and off to keep the battery at the desired voltage.  While it is pulsing the on percentage varies.  The on percentage varying would be a modulation of the pulse width, PWM.

The resistance of 25 feet of #12 wire will cause a voltage drop making the voltage at the controller higher than the voltage at the battery causing the PWM to shut off sooner than it should.  A moment later with no current, no voltage drop, the controller will, sensing the actual, lower, battery voltage, turn back on sooner.  It averages.  Measure the voltage at the battery and adjust the controller set point accordingly.  If you get a longer or fatter extension cord reevaluate at that time.

It might be gooder,  most bestest to have shorter welding cable rather than 25 feet of #12 but what you have can work well enough.  With 20 volt panels and 15 volts at the battery the 5 volt difference will push current through the battery charging it.  Welding cable is too heavy to drag out every day.

I looked at the Lifeline pdf file.  They recommend 14.3 volts at 77 degrees F for absorption.  Look at their document for other temperatures.

Thank you Trebor.

we'll see whn I can get optimal cabling, bit certainly welding cables aren't going to be worth the price. i think in the world of solar there are no perfects and for now I'll take what it gives me. Am I to understand my system, even with welding cables, will not yield 14.2 volts? Even with line drop, should I at a minimum see say 14V. What does it take for this controller to try to push 14.2?

And for Lifeline's specs, given the line drop I don't think setting it to 14.6 is too far off, or would you stick with 14.2 and accept what the batteries get, say 14.0? According to solar Bob its the volts you want.

 

[Trebor English]

Welding cable might be better.  AWG #12 is probably fine.  I was trying to be a bit sarcastic.  What you have is probably good enough but there will always be something better.  Because there exists wire that is half inch diameter, that doesn't mean that your cable won't work.

Change the programed "float" level to 14.6 and check the voltage at the battery.  The "float" level is the constant voltage level that most people call absorb that comes after bulk.  When you see the word "float" in the instructions think absorb.  Do you have the slip of paper with instructions, English on one side?  

In order to tell if the controller is in bulk mode, always on, or in constant voltage absorb mode, PWM on and off,  measure, at the controller screws, the panel voltage and the battery voltage.  If they are the same, it is bulk mode.  When the controller starts doing the PWM on and off the panel voltage will be higher than the battery voltage.  That's because the panel has no load during the off time.  Once it gets the battery up to this point you should then check the battery voltage at the battery looking for 14.3 absorb level.  It may take 14.6 at the controller to get 14.3 at the battery.   

I would not go higher than the Lifeline recommended 14.3 because this controller keeps the programmed voltage until the sun goes down.  The Handy Bob solar charging puzzle complains about controllers that get to the right voltage but then quit too soon.  This controller can't see the battery charge current to know it is tapering.  It can't see the electrolyte specific gravity to know the battery is full.  There is no way to tell that it's time to stop absorb.  This dumb controller just keeps going at the programmed voltage.  The 13.6 it is set to now is too low.  The batteries will not be happy.  

You should be able to get 14.6 volts by changing the voltage setting of the controller.  First thing in the morning it won't happen but if the battery isn't too low it should happen in the afternoon.  If the battety is real low it might even take a couple of days to get to 14.6 but only getting to 13.6 is because the controller is set to that low voltage.  The controller maximum voltage is 15.

 

[jimindenver]

Jim,

I'm very new to this, just trying to use proper terms and understand what I think I need to know. I looked up the controller you mentioned. I am not clear what the manual is saying here.

1、When the LCD shows “ABSORB” or “FLOAT”, the charging is not using MPPT, it uses PWM to control the precise voltage to protect the battery. I thought the point of mppt is to up the amps with the extra volts it can't send to the batteries. Why wouldn't it be using the "buck controller" to send more amps?

The buck converter is always producing extra amps from excessive voltage. The MPPT program is no longer needed since the battery voltage is up. The PWM keeps the voltage from going higher than the set point and the battery controls how fast it accepts the power. The fuller it gets the lower the amps it will accept. That doesn't mean the extra amps are not there, you will see them if you turn on a load. Your system can put out as many amps in absorb and float as it does in bulk when the MPPT program is in control.
i know because I use those extra amps to in absorb and float to run a small air conditioner, a hot plate, a water heater and more. The batteries may only be accepting 6 amps but in my system there are still 74 more amps available. That means I can run my A/C pulling 35 amps and my water heater at 35 amps and the battery will not lose voltage in absorb or float.

2、The converter in the MPPT is the buck type and only charges when the voltage of the solar panel is higher than the battery voltage. I thought all panels have a higher voltage than batteries?

They do not have a higher voltage when they are not getting enough light to produce.

when does the mppt buck type actually engage?

The MPPT program is in use in the bulk stage of charging. It means Maximum Power Point Tracking and it tweaks the voltage of the panels to be as efficient as possible at bringing up the voltage of the battery.

 

[Trebor English]

    just trying to use proper terms

Different people use different words.  Different vendors' documents use different words.  It is confusing.

 

[MarkK]

Welding cable might be better.  AWG #12 is probably fine.  I was trying to be a bit sarcastic.  What you have is probably good enough but there will always be something better.  Because there exists wire that is half inch diameter, that doesn't mean that your cable won't work.

Change the programed "float" level to 14.6 and check the voltage at the battery.  The "float" level is the constant voltage level that most people call absorb that comes after bulk.  When you see the word "float" in the instructions think absorb.  Do you have the slip of paper with instructions, English on one side?  

In order to tell if the controller is in bulk mode, always on, or in constant voltage absorb mode, PWM on and off,  measure, at the controller screws, the panel voltage and the battery voltage.  If they are the same, it is bulk mode.  When the controller starts doing the PWM on and off the panel voltage will be higher than the battery voltage.  That's because the panel has no load during the off time.  Once it gets the battery up to this point you should then check the battery voltage at the battery looking for 14.3 absorb level.  It may take 14.6 at the controller to get 14.3 at the battery.   

I would not go higher than the Lifeline recommended 14.3 because this controller keeps the programmed voltage until the sun goes down.  The Handy Bob solar charging puzzle complains about controllers that get to the right voltage but then quit too soon.  This controller can't see the battery charge current to know it is tapering.  It can't see the electrolyte specific gravity to know the battery is full.  There is no way to tell that it's time to stop absorb.  This dumb controller just keeps going at the programmed voltage.  The 13.6 it is set to now is too low.  The batteries will not be happy.  

You should be able to get 14.6 volts by changing the voltage setting of the controller.  First thing in the morning it won't happen but if the battery isn't too low it should happen in the afternoon.  If the battety is real low it might even take a couple of days to get to 14.6 but only getting to 13.6 is because the controller is set to that low voltage.  The controller maximum voltage is 15.

I think I need a different SC, MPPT as you and Jim recommend and locate by the battery bank. Just not sure between the Victron and the one Jim uses yet.

I'm finally seeing it hitting 14.6, but it does this odd cycling of numbers as if it is measuring and reporting battery voltage, say 13.2, and then flashing 14.6, or even holding 14.4, and then badk to the back and forth with varied numbers with the low maintaining around 13.2 and the high in the upper 13's to low 14's.

WhenI use a meter at the panels I'm reading say 18V into the SC, and output of 14V. This all with the being set for FLA 14.6. Even more odd is the further down the line I go toward the batteries the lower the V readings. Two feet from the SC I'm down 0.1V, and 19' down thr line at the battery connection I'm down 0.5V.

My SC manual is all in English, written in about 0.5 Times New Roman font. What a hassle to read.

 

[MarkK]

The Eco-worthy 20a MPPT controller can be had from their site for $100, less on ebay. I have used them for 5 years, they are adjustable with a LED display. I have never had one fry. Would you get more power parallel vs series would be a interesting test.

As for does a MPPT controller continue to do it's thing after the bulk stage? That depends on what you mean by its thing. The MPPT program that controls the voltage in bulk mode stops functioning in absorb and float. It stops because there is no longer a need to control the voltage because the battery controlling both the voltage and acceptance rate. It also searches the array for the sweet spot that creates the most amps. The thing is the MPPT program is not what takes the excess volts and creates amps. The buck converter is. The power comes in from the panels as DC, is converted to AC and then back to DC again. It is what takes high voltage/low amps and allows it to come out low voltage/high amps to a PWM controller. There is no by pass of the buck converter to the PWM controller and you still get the benefit of the conversion.

I will have to see how many of the graphs and schematic was lost to Photobucket but yes I have proof. It started when I realized I could put a 15a load on a 230w panel with a MPPT controller in float and not have the batteries voltage drop. The panel was a high voltage panel with a Voc of 34 and was rated for under 9 amps Isc. Were the buck converter not still doing its thing the battery should have started dropping in voltage once the load passed 9 amps. I have seen my three panels on the roof of the trailer that are run in series for 105v and under 9 amps Isc produce 45 amps in absorb and float. Again without the buck converter I should see 9 amps and a lot of wasted voltage. Even running them in parallel would only produce 27a in absorb and float without the buck converter.

So if you are interested in starting a thread on the workings of a MPPT controller and are willing to accept it when proof is presented, then I am game. Should I not be able to bring up the graphs then I can have one of the controllers do a log and create a new graph. It is something I see from my system every day and I would not be able to do the things I do without it.

That said I agree that while a MPPT controller would get the most out of a single portable, a second portable would provide more additional power.

Jim,

It has taken me a while to appreciate what you have written here. Question, 1) any reason your Eco Friendly mppt is better than the Victron, and 2) given my situation, 2 panels and 2 - 12V batteries in parallel, would you wire the panels in series to the controller and let the controller deliver the appropriate voltage to the 12V batteries? As in can the mppt SC take in 34V and deliver 14.4V?