Quick Question re: Jump starting a Dead Battery

[One Awesome Inch]

So I was working on my van build and I left my lights on. Oops. Dead starting battery.

Luckily I wasn't too far from a walmart so I went and bought a new battery and some jumper cables. 

Installed the new battery in the van and drove home.

So tomorrow morning I intend to put the old battery back in the van and jump start the vehicle with the new battery. Then drive for awhile to recharge the old battery.

Two questions:

1. Does the good/new battery have to be in a running vehicle to jump start the dead battery in the van? I don't think so, but want to be sure before I mess with it.

2. Once the dead battery has been jumped, how long do I have to drive to bring the battery back to a level where it will start the van on its own without issue? I left the lights on for about 2 hours so its fairly dead.

 

[GotSmart]

Take the old one to someplace where they can do a proper trickle charge of it. That way they can make sure it is topped up and able to be recharged, or just a lump of lead.

Otherwise it takes a few hours to do a half ass charge driving.

 

[SternWake]

Take the old one to someplace where they can do a proper trickle charge of it.  That way they can make sure it is topped up and able to be recharged, or just a lump of lead.

Otherwise it takes a few hours to do a half ass charge driving.

I'm sending the battery police by to come lock you up up for attempted batterycide.

You need to get that battery back upto 100% ASAP, not 30%. Generally a healthy battery 30% charged can still start a fuel injected engine. 

How long to run the engine before the battery is charged again  to start the next day is influenced by many factors and will vary widely.

This starting battery will fail soon, your only hope is getting it on a real battery charger for long enough.

At a minimum you need to get it to 80% charged, and that can be an hour or 2 or 4 of driving, not idling.  That 80 to 100% will take another 4 hours no matter what charging source is employed

Starting batteries simply cannot handle deep discharges.  without a prompt and full recharge, it is doomed.  Even if you charge it fully, its capacity has been compromised to some degree by being drained dead.

 

[SoulRaven]

You don't need the battery you're using to jump the dead one in a vehicle.

If you're battery died after only a few hours of your headlights left on, I think it's at the end of it's lifespan already. I would also be checking your charging system.

This is also just one more example of why I like and recommend battery protectors.

Good Luck!

 

[ccbreder]

Go get an inexpencive 10 amp charger from sam. Put the dead battery on over night, out doors would be best.

 

[oldogre]

A general question, if the battery is hooked up to a charger to charge overnight, would the vehicles battery cables have to be removed from the battery to avoid damage to vehicles electronics? 

Also if battery is older would it be good to give it a long slow charge once in a while?

 

[SternWake]

Depends on the charger. Some of them can go into the mid 16's which is too high for a battery and too high for some electronics. On can disconnect just the ground cable.

The whole trickle/long slow 'trickle' recharge is often touted as best. Depends on thestate of the battery, but sometimes hard and fast can do what low and slow never will.

OH!! Thats what she said!

Anytime the battery is brought to as high a state of charge as possible, is good for the battery, as long as it is not regularly overcharged.

Restoring lost capacity is done via an equalization charge( forced overcharge of flooded batteries only). It might work, it might not.

 

[oldogre]

Depends on the charger. Some of them can go into the mid 16's which is too high for a battery and too high for some electronics.  On can disconnect just the ground cable.

The whole trickle/long slow 'trickle' recharge is often touted as best.  Depends on thestate of the battery, but sometimes hard and fast can do what low and slow never will.

OH!! Thats what she said!

Anytime the battery is brought to as high a state of charge as possible, is good for the battery, as long as it is not regularly overcharged.

Restoring lost capacity is done via an equalization charge( forced overcharge of flooded batteries only).  It might work, it might not.

 Ok just re read it LOL,

 

[One Awesome Inch]

Welp, I think the battery is toast. I tried jumping it with the new battery. Wouldnt turn over. Went and got my ex-wife's car, put the new battery on the gas pedal to get the revs up (that was fun)... wouldn't turn over. Put the new battery back in the van and she started up.

A friend of mine says he can get a wholesale price on a new "proper" battery and I think I am just going to go ahead and do that.

The other option is put some distilled water in the old battery and borrow a charger and try to bring it back to life. However, I was planning on getting a new battery anyway.

Here are the specs on a Marine/RV battery I was thinking of getting if my friend can't get me that deal...

Does it look good?

      Specifications

Brand Name - Nautilus
Group Size - 27
Weight - 58 lbs
Premium marine starting and deep cycle battery
Engineered for power, stamina and reliability
Group size 27
730 marine cranking amps,
100 amp hours,
reserve capacity of 160 minutes
Dimensions are 12 (L) x 6-13/16 (W) x 9-7/16" (H) (30 x 17 x 24 cm)
12-month free replacement,
30 month total warranty

 

[Canine]

Sorry to hear about your battery. I foolishly left my lights on and came back to a dead battery 2 months ago. Called AAA, he came out and tested it, "yep, close to dead, buy mine for $149". I said no thanks. He was able to jump it with his portable quick jump setup. Then I drove about 45 minutes, parked right beside the Walmart auto store and turned it off. Went in and priced a new battery, regular starting type, $129. Back out to the van cause I didn't have 129... Turned the key, it started. Then back to Walmart and bought a $37 smart charger 8/2 amp. Was able to plug in overnight 12 hours, (disconnected cables, topped of with purified drinking water) and it showed "green". It's started every day since. Maybe just lucky.

Moral? Keep a good set of heavy jumper cables and go ahead and buy a decent smart battery charger. I do charge ithe battery overnight once a month now when power is available, and hope it will last another year or two. Maybe I should have just bought a battery however if $37 works, better than $129 plus. Course, I have AAA. Doesn't work if you are in a Nat Park or BLM but I usually am not.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

I ended up buying the battery I posted about above. Just a quick note: deep cell batteries usually have larger dimensions than typical starting batteries. I had to remove the battery tray to get the deep cylce to fit my van.

The good thing is that if I ever kill my battery now I can bring back to life with a long enough charge.

And in my situation I can have the battery in the engine compartment without it taking space in my living area.

 

[Canine]

Hey,worked for you, that's great. I don't know the efficiency of a deep cell type battery as a starting battery, it's a hybrid system, SternWake could give you the specifics but if you really don't care that much then I hope it works fine for you. Is there any room for a second battery under the hood? I don't have the room but wish I could put mine there, extra heat not withstanding I'd rather have it outdoors...

I have a postit note taped to the windshield that says "lights?" As a reminder now... There's no warning buzzer on my van, no auto shut off circuit like newer cars have... Would have saved me some grief... Next van will have everything! LOL

 

[Bdog1]

You could add a battery protector.

Disconnects battery (electronically) if voltage gets low.

 

[SternWake]

Battery sizes are standardized. Group 24/65/27/31, ect.

These are all very close in size among different brands. A group 27 starting battery is the same size as a group 27 marine battery or a group27 psuedo deep cycle battery. The handles might protrude off the side of the case more and the terminal height can be slightly different but the 12.75 x 6.75 footprint is the same. A group 27 stating battery might weigh 50 LBs. A group 27 marine battery 56 Lbs, the psuedo deep cycle group 27, 62Lbs

A deep cycle battery can be used a a starting battery. It is just a starting battery of the same size will have a much higher CCA rating. Cold cranking amps for fast engine cranking. The deep cycle battery has thicker denser plates that do not support these higher CCA ratings.

A deep cycle wet/flooded battery usually needs to be significantly larger than a starting battery to have the same CCA ratings.

I am not sure where or how the term 'Deep Cell' was coined in referring to a deep cycle battery. My best guess is it refers to real Deep cycle batteries, like golf cart batteries, which are much taller than any standard automitive 12v battery. The GC2 and L-16 batteries are much taller, their cells much deeper, Their electrolyte capacity increased greatly over a regular car jar battery, and these batteries were originally designed around deep cycling, so deep cell has become synonymous with deep cycle. No car jar battery qualifies as a deep cell, and no car jar battery qualifies as a true deep cycle.

Any battery that is in the standard car jar sizes is built nowhere near as burly as a true deep cycle battery such as a GC-2 or L-16 storage battery, which are over 15 inches tall.

NO group 27 or 24 or 31 is an actual deep cycle battery despite what the sticker might proclaim. A marine battery is not a Deep cycle battery. It is a dual purpose battery that can handle deeper discharges much better than a starting battery, but nowhere near as well as a true deep cycle battery.

I am also in the process of lowering my battery tray to accept a taller battery. The Trojan t-1275 is one of the few 12 volt batteries whose construction rivals or equals that of a 6v golf cart battery.

The temperatures underhood are not conducive to long battery life either. So a house battery located there would not live as long, all other factors being equal, as one mounted in a cooler location.

I'm planning on setting up a thermal barrier for my underhood battery and possibly have forced ventilation around it to keep it from cooking and failing prematurely.

 

[Canine]

Makes one long for the days of my 68 Chev C10 pickup with a 292 straight six where you sat on the fenderwell and worked on your engine.  You had 2 feet of daylight on either side to drop tools down to the ground thru.   Plenty of air circulation back then I'll tell you!

I recently saw an older GM van with a 454 under the hood, there wasn't an inch that didn't have a belt, hose, part or piece occupying it.  I can only imagine the difference in under hood temps from the 68 to the van...  Yes, that heat reduces life in batteries as well.  Living here in Phoenix the auto parts stores say 2-3 years is all you get out of batteries.  I hope my going on 3 yr old is not going to follow that prediction...

 

[One Awesome Inch]

I meant to say Deep Cyle not Deep Cell... that was a typo. Oops.

As to the dimension the previous starter battery was 7.75 tall and the new dual marine/rv is 9 and 7/16s. A friend of mine could have gotten a cheaper price than I paid on a battery that is better than the one I just bought (158ah instead of 100ah for example) but it was too tall at 10.5 not including the posts. I looked into the possbility of lowering my battery tray, but the mounts are welded to the van body and I am just not willing to go thru all that.

In my area it may get above 25 C for maybe a month, but most of the time much cooler. The heat of the engine may have an affect on the battery. Not sure... I'll guess I'll see. If this battery lasts me a year of consistent good use starting my engine and giving me 12v power in my living area, I'll be happy with that.

As to CCA I was told that 730 should be fine since the climate in the PNW rarely goes below -10C.

What I really need to do is figure out how to secure my battery to the battery tray mounts, since I removed the battery tray to make it fit. Right now I have it held with heavy duty zip ties, but its too loose for my comfort.  Thinking ratcheting straps or something. Not sure.

BTW since this battery requires maintenance and has the lids that come off to replenish the acid (with distilled water I heard) how often do I need to pop the lids off and do that?

 

[Canine]

Speaking of underhood temps, here's a thread from some diesel van forum talking about their ideas... It gets 40-42 C here so we need help with temps under the hood!

derjack
09-02-2013, 07:30 AM
I think- but have not measured- it depends on what your goal is and obviously it not as simple as it seams.

I think first you need to see WHAT temperatures are too high [Water, Oil, cylinder head, air in the intake, turbo, egt].
The missing Air cooler (in Vans 6.0´s) has an influence for the hole burning process and the every department that´s passed. Sadly an air inter-cooler is very expensive. Oil temperature is very important to keep in its limits.

If you look at the water temperatures the different engines in the Vans get, the Ford Motor Comp. did a lot of different "Versions" of water coolers. For an motor engineer this is the best- because cheapest way- to get the temps down.
There are some documents from Ford that show that Oils cooler have got bigger from early 7.3 to later ones to the 6.0. But more interestingly the water cooler fans have improved with with more wing fans!

I mead some guys who measured a huge difference in water temps when traveling through the Sahara with the same rig like mine. The water temps dropped 10-15 degrees Celsius after adding a switch that keeps the fan in a nonstop modus.

Having this in mind I would ad the question: WHEN are your temps too high and are you driving or in a stop and go drive, like City? Scoops will of course not help if you aren´t on highway speed.

Finally:
Nobody mentioned and it isn´t either in the interesting articles, that modern cars have a more or less closed motor room due to aerodynamics. Vans/Trucks don´t. So when you are driving with ventilations in the side there is probably more hot air getting out through the bottom that the side!
ZukiCAMPER
09-02-2013, 12:32 PM
I think first you need to see WHAT temperatures are too high [Water, Oil, cylinder head, air in the intake, turbo, egt].
The missing Air cooler (in Vans 6.0´s) has an influence for the hole burning process and the every department that´s passed. Sadly an air inter-cooler is very expensive. Oil temperature is very important to keep in its limits.

6.0's are intercooled in vans.. 7.3's are not.
cowboy4x4
09-02-2013, 07:25 PM
derjack... I disagree with a part of your statement. Hood scoops "do" work at slow speed, instead of allowing cool air in, at slow speeds or stopped they allow hot air to escape backwards through the vent. A definite benefit when sitting at an idle on a trail or in stop and go traffic....
hobietony
09-02-2013, 10:01 PM
Further data points - All the Tucson city Ford-van based small shuttle vans, and many of the local private ambulance services, (all of the vintage to have the 6.0), have hood vents facing backwards to allow heat to escape from the engine bay. They use two of the ambo-type vents, like the type shown below, mounted high on the hood, facing the windshield, and have a 4" opening (maybe a little under that?). As many have stated, the problem with these vans is not with getting enough air in, but with getting enough air out. You could take pressure measurements, or you could just follow the lead of several individuals and municipal agencies that have seen positive results from installing hood vents in an area that allow further airflow through the engine bay. This location is especially useful in slow speed/traffic/rock crawling applications where there is no vehicle-generated airflow to move air through the bay
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/... - Jack-SD-Van Int/m_P8030034_zpsee6035f7.jpg
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Vents on my rig
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/... - Jack-SD-Van Int/m_IMG_0152_zpsea150516.jpg
-
And for those concerned about water getting in the engine bay, what do you think happens to the water that flows into that big radiator opening in the front of the vehicle when you drive in the rain? It is blown back on to the engine. It is not the Wicked Witch of the West, it wont melt if a little water flows into the bay, and the ambo-type vents are elevated above the hood so water ingress is minimized further when parked.
derjack
09-03-2013, 09:03 AM
183294
I am absolutely fine if you cut holes into your hoods and it definitely looks cool. But having a cooling benefit of it is not that easy as the mentioned articles shows.

And still: First you need to figure out which temps are out of green level (if they are at all). And after that go from there, before you've cut a hole. The doc I meant was this one. You can see that oil and water cooler variant from engine type to engine type (also from generation to generation, on the 7.3 e.g.).

- On a too high water temp I would go for a fan upgrade (more air flow with more/better fang wings e.g.). I expect a ventilated hood can help also.
- On a too high oil temp I would expect driving even without a hood would not help. I would go for a bigger/additional oil cooler. And bad oil could cause a lot of bad problems. And Oil is expensive- keeping oil cool ensures a better (oil) lifetime.
bknudtsen
09-03-2013, 10:50 AM
This is a good read.

http://www.oman4x4.com/hoodvents.htm#theory
derjack
09-03-2013, 10:56 AM
This is a good read.

http://www.oman4x4.com/hoodvents.htm#theory

this mentioned the temps under the Hood. I think we are concerned about the temps inside the engine.
bknudtsen
09-03-2013, 12:21 PM
this mentioned the temps under the Hood. I think we are concerned about the temps inside the engine.

And when you say "we", you mean "you," because the original post specifically mentions the desire to reduce underhood temperatures, and specifically mentions NOT being concerned about overheating issues. The 6.0 is not known to have overheating issues, but everyone who drives one is keenly aware of the amount of heat it puts off into the cabin due to being a large engine stuffed into a small space. Those that live in very hot climates, such as Arizona, desire to reduce underhood temps to help dissipate heat buildup under the hood, and subsequently, heat transfer into the cabin. How this turned into an engine cooling system debate is unclear to me."

 

[Canine]

OneAwsomeInch, opinions will vary but I pop the tops off my battery every 2-3 months and check.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

Cool... thanks!

 

[SternWake]

The term Deep cell is widely used and accepted to describe a deep cycle battery.  It is not wrong, it is just the meaning has drifted to include batteries which really can't qualify for that classification, but are placed there anyway.

Semantics.  Not worth worrying about.


The issue of how much heat a battery accepts/absorbs from a warm engine compartment is something I have no Data on, at this point.  The ideal charging voltages change fairly drastically with temperature, so a hot battery getting 14.8v is not a happy battery.  A battery kept cool is a happy battery.


I recently took my flooded battery out of service at about 465 deep cycles, only because of the heat it was generating while charging.  In terms of it meeting my overnight needs, it was, and likely still is, capable of easily supporting them.  When i measured 118F on the bottom of the cell with the worst Specific gravity reading, it was an unignorable sign of impending failure and possibly dangerous.  I pulled it and started modifications to accept a taller battery that is perhaps/hopefully in  the 'true' deep cycle variety rather than being in the marine or pseudo deep cycle category.

Look at the difference in construction in this link:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

How much water a flooded battery needs and how often varies greatly among batteries, how they are used, how they are recharged, and how they are constructed.

A battery will start using more and more water when it nears the end of life. My Crown and USbatteries accelerated their water usage with accumulation of deep cycles and declining capacity.

I had used Wally world batteries for a while and some of those never required water, even at the end of their life. Please do not equate this with quality construction.  Also, on a 12v battery there are 6 cells and their water usage will vary among the cells and the more cycles on the battery the more the levels will vary.

A hydrometer is the ultimate tool to see how well a wet/flooded battery is responding to the charging sources available to it.  Use of A hydrometer requires opening the cells to check specific gravity, and seeing the levels in the cells is just part of the process, and noticing increased usage of water is obvious when checking every so often.


If one has a solar controller with adjustable setpoints, one can use a hydrometer and a little curiosity and tell exactly how the particular battery is responding to  those voltage setpoints.  A happy battery is one that gets back into the 'green' every time it is recharged.

Many charging sources claim to get a battery into the green, but more voltage and more time at higher voltage was required to actually get it there.

http://www.amazon.com/OTC-4619-Professional-Battery-Hydrometer/dp/B0050SFVHO