Preparing for high elevation jobs

[Vagabound]

..... My Mr. Heater Portable Buddy worked sporadically when I was in Flagstaff, which is 6,900 feet. I resorted to heating with my stove.

Can you describe the behavior of your heater when it was working sporadically at higher elevation?

Tom

 

[bullfrog]

My Buddy heater did not work at NAU's parking lot I believe because of the low oxygen sensor safety device they use. It was November and well below freezing around 9 degrees at night. It worked perfectly well before and after at lower elevations and warmer temperatures. It was difficult to keep it running and acted much as it would if low on propane. Most always relight but soon or immediately go out.

 

[MrNoodly]

Can you describe the behavior of your heater when it was working sporadically at higher elevation?

Tom

It would be hard to light, would work for a while, then go out. I'd struggle to relight it, it would work briefly, then go out again. And so on.

 

[Vagabound]

I got some information from Mr. Heater technical support. in short, they confirmed the 7000 foot elevation operating limit of their heaters. They also said that the low oxygen shut off, which appears to be the problem here, is not adjustable. At least not under warranty and if it could otherwise be done, they would not admit it for liability reasons. They didn't say that, I'm just surmising. I've had someone else tell me that they disabled that part of their own heater years ago and it works. Not recommending it, just saying. I'd like to find that part on mine, unplug it just for the summer, and then plug it back in when I come back to lower elevations.

On a related note, I'm hearing from one source though not official that I should expect the same kind of problems with my Coleman stove at higher elevations. I don't know why that would be true. To the best of my knowledge, a Coleman stove would not have a low oxygen shut off. Does anybody have knowledge of this or experience with it?

Tom

 

[highdesertranger]

some of the older Coleman stoves have a adjustable air intake. don't know if the newer ones have this. on the tube that goes to the burner plate there is a window that allows air in, on the older ones this window is adjustable to allow more or less air in. the higher the elevation the more air you let in. I do not have a problem with my Camp Chef at high elevation, it has the adjustable windows. highdesertranger

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I got some information from Mr. Heater technical support. in short, they confirmed the 7000 foot elevation operating limit of their heaters. They also said that the low oxygen shut off, which appears to be the problem here, is not adjustable. At least not under warranty and if it could otherwise be done, they would not admit it for liability reasons. They didn't say that, I'm just surmising. I've had someone else tell me that they disabled that part of their own heater years ago and it works. Not recommending it, just saying. I'd like to find that part on mine, unplug it just for the summer, and then plug it back in when I come back to lower elevations.

I got curious as to how something like that would work, so I tried Googling it.  It turns out that there is an EXTREMELY precise pilot flame that heats a bi-metalic strip.  When the oxygen level falls, it disrupts the flame enough that the bi-metalic strip moves and closes the gas feed valve.  See part C:

http://www.desatech.com/techDocs/Gas Valve Troubleshooting.pdf

 

[Vagabound]

I got curious as to how something like that would work, so I tried Googling it.  It turns out that there is an EXTREMELY precise pilot flame that heats a bi-metalic strip.  When the oxygen level falls, it disrupts the flame enough that the bi-metalic strip moves and closes the gas feed valve.  See part C:

http://www.desatech.com/techDocs/Gas Valve Troubleshooting.pdf

Thanks, John. And what's your conclusion about whether that finely tuned mechanism can take a vacation or not?

Tom

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Thanks, John. And what's your conclusion about whether that finely tuned mechanism can take a vacation or not?

Tom

Tom, I've never actually seen the inside of one.  I wouldn't want to express an opinion until I've seen what's involved.  I'm funny that way . . .

 

[Vagabound]

Tom, I've never actually seen the inside of one.  I wouldn't want to express an opinion until I've seen what's involved.  I'm funny that way . . .

Not funny. I think it makes perfect sense.

Tom

 

[DannyB1954]

Actually you can see the safety mechanism. it is in the front bottom, (it is the pilot light).
The pilot light flame heats a thermocouple just like a household heater. If the oxygen is too low, the flame of the pilot light is not long enough to heat the thermocouple. this shuts off the gas to the unit.

Nothing mechanically moves, the flame just gets shorter.

 

[Vagabound]

Actually you can see the safety mechanism. it is in the front bottom, (it is the pilot light).
The pilot light flame heats a thermocouple just like a household heater.  If the oxygen is too low, the flame of the pilot light is not long enough to heat the thermocouple. this shuts off the gas to the unit.

Nothing mechanically moves, the flame just gets shorter.

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation. So based on what you know, would you agree with me that it doesn't appear to be adjustable or able to be circumvented?

Tom

 

[rvpopeye]

My pilot light lights the ceramic panel(s) and is on all the time the heater is running...
I don't know if it would run without the pilot but doubt it as the thermocouple would shut it all off !?.
Probably a good idea but not so good for using it above 7K'.
So "just use the stove" sounds like the best answer so far.

 

[DannyB1954]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation. So based on what you know, would you agree with me that it doesn't appear to be adjustable or able to be circumvented?

Tom

You would either have to bend the thermocouple mount or the pilot light mount, (so that a short flame would still hit the thermocouple. 

There are variances in manufacture, One might trip out at 6,000 feet, the next 9,000 feet etc. 

I would only modify the heater if you were certain that the unit was shutting off at too low an elevation.
Then I would make sure a window was open and I had a carbon monoxide detector.

 

[Vagabound]

...
So "just use the stove" sounds like the best answer so far.

I think I missed that reply, even when I went back to look for it. I was still waiting for people to say whether they know Coleman stoves have trouble at higher elevations or not.

Tom

 

[DannyB1954]

I think that anything that uses fossil fuels will have problems. Wood stoves have the advantage that they must be vented to begin with, so one does not breath any combustion fumes. A stove that burns dirty puts out Carbon Monoxide as well. I think the Catalytic types would be the safest because they not only rely on combustion but chemical reaction to complete the burn.

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

My Coleman stove worked when I was camping between 7 and 10k feet the three months I camped through out Montana, Colorado and California. It's a newer one, maybe 6 or 7 years old now.

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

So is the low oxygen thing that white piece that's at the pilot flame?  

I have a buddy heater where that has broken or burned off.  So would  this now work at high elevation?  It seems to still work fine.  I attached four pics of it going through the process.  

First pic shows the missing piece
2nd pic shows the pilot light
3rd shows it heating up the element
4th shows the element turning red as it reaches temp

Tom, if you want me to send you this heater I will, if you or someone else thinks it might work at your elevation.  That way you don't have to ruin yours experimenting.  I have two more of the big buddies and don't need all of them. Bought a few when I was heating my entire house with them during the winter so we could install the drywall and have the joint compound dry.

 

[Vagabound]

...

Tom, if you want me to send you this heater I will, if you or someone else thinks it might work at your elevation.  That way you don't have to ruin yours experimenting. ...

Matt, that is a very kind offer. Thank you for even thinking of it. Rather than put you to that trouble, I think I'll probably get a small electric heater because my camp host campsite has a power pole that comes with the job. Either that will work fine or my Buddy Heater will work. In either case, I don't think I'm going to freeze. It is Colorado, but it's also summer. At least it will be when May is gone!  ;-)

Tom

 

[jonsun]

the safest way is to run an electric space heater from a generator

 

[rvpopeye]

I have electric heaters and always use them if a place supplies electricity.
Propane isn't free.......well,actually some places have supplied that too !