Newbie doing a second battery

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DougH71

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Hey, all. Building a van for road trips / camping.

Looking to install a house battery. I've watched Bob's continuous duty solenoid video, but still have a few questions.

Shopped by price, and ended up with a 85 Amp solenoid. Will that be a high enough rating for what I'm doing? Have a Maxxair fan in the roof that we'll be using at night. Also, found a 400w inverter to use. I'm thinking maybe a desktop fan/heater (not at the same time as Maxxair fan), and some I-pad recharging on the inverter.

Had an old group 27 car battery to use, but just figured out that was junk. Guess I should suck it up and buy a deep cycle, but all the listings I see show low amp hour ratings. Also, do deep cycles need venting?

Planning (not so much) a road trip in two weeks. I want to at least have the roof fan working. Will probably be driving in several hour spurts through the day. So....

What size battery, and is my solenoid adequate? Thanks.
 
No desktop "fan/heater" as the heater will require more energy than a simple set up can provide.

The max current through the switch depends on how low one battery is, how full the other one is, and the wire resistance. The tiny spark at the moment of contact will eventually make the contacts stick. The thing to watch for is the failure to disconnect. An 85 amp solenoid is probably good for many camping trips.

There are USB phone / tablet chargers that don't need an inverter. That could save a lot of energy. I use an inverter for my electric shaver but only 3 minutes per day.
 
lots of unknowns here. I would consider a 85a solenoid to be a minimum starting point for myself I would much rather have a 200a.

what size cable are you planning on running and how far is the run?

forget the heater. heating anything with electricity is very inefficient.

12v deep cycle batteries are hard to find and expensive. about the best you can do in 12v is a marine or dual use battery.

highdesertranger
 
hey doug, congrats on building a van. figuring out your 12 volt power systems can be challenging when you are first learning. i'll see if i can help you here a bit.

so the short answer to you solenoid adequacy question is, maybe? like someone posted above. we would need more info to give a definitive answer. i will try to explain it so you can understand and then make the decision based on your particulars

first let look at your question on the "continuous duty solenoid". simply put, the solenoid is just a big switch the is turned on/off by electricity instead of you having to flip a switch with your hand. when looking at the amp ratings, 85 amp in your case. you could have either a continuous rated solenoid or an intermittent rated solenoid. an example of an intermittent solenoid would be in the starting circuit of your van. when you turn the key to crank the engine. they key switch sends power to the starter solenoid (either built into the starter, or external mounted separately) which closes allowing the high current to get from the battery to the starter. this can be a couple hundred amps. but it only lasts for a few seconds. that type wont last long at all if you use it for more than in short spurts. that is where the continuous duty type comes into play. the continuous rated one is meant to be "on" for extended periods of time, i.e. continuously...

the purpose of this solenoid is to connect the starting battery to the house battery and allow them to share the output of the engine alternator for charging. by wiring it the way they show in the video lets it energize or turn on when you turn the ignition on, and turn off when the ignition is turned off. it is not fool proof, but that basically allows the house battery to charge from the engine but not discharge the starting battery so you dont end up with a dead starting battery and can still start your van when you want

now, to decide if your 85 amp rated (assuming continuous duty rated) solenoid is big enough for your application. we have to look at how many amps might be going through it and on to charge the house battery. from a purely technical by the spec way to figure that would be to check the output rating of your alternator. if your solenoid rating was higher than the output of the alternator you would be good to go (except for a couple rare situations where you are also drawing power from the starter battery, only mention for those that want to nit pic)

now your 85 amp rated solenoid may be just fine, even if the alternator is larger. say you have a 130 amp alternator. it is unfortunate, but they rarely put out full capacity and even then they tend to taper of rather quick. they also are sharing that out put between 2 batteries. so the amps going through the solenoid will hardly ever approach the full out put of the alternator. your house battery would have to be really really low at the same time your starting battery was full (so none of the alternator output was going there) it just doesnt happen very often. for example, i had a 40 amp fuse protecting my "solenoid" and even with a 95 amp alternator i only blew that fuse 2 times in 3 years and over 50,000 miles. so if you protect the solenoid with an 80-85 amp fuse you will be fine. the fuses in that size can be a little pricey so i would recommend getting an 80 amp breaker. that way you just have to reset it if you pop it. you can learn how to not pop it by being aware of the condition of your system. it is only going to pop when the house batteries are real low and drawing a lot of charge current. if the breaker pops, before resetting the breaker, leave the engine running at idle. (at idle the alternator wont be able to put out max current) also turn on the headlights and high beams and the fan for your heater. you are trying to use enough amps from the alternator that the remaining output going to through the solenoid is less than the breaker. then reset the breaker, let the engine run a few min at idle like that and then when you start driving leave the lights/heater and whatever else on for a bit till the house bank charges up some and no longer drawing such a large charge current.

now that we are talking about circuit protection and amp rating you need to understand how to choose wire size in relation to the fuse or breaker size. fuses and breakers are there as the week link. they are meant to fail or trip before a dangerous over current situation can cause damage or start a fire. in this case here we selected the rating of the breaker to protect the solenoid. we now have to make sure the wire/cable we use is safe to handle the full rated current of the fuse/breaker. there are lots of charts you can find on google. look for wire size fuse chart or wire size amp capacity. for safety, i.e. to prevent melted wires and fire that will be around an 8 or 6 gauge wire, minimum! this would be a safe size. but you probably want to use a larger size to reduce resistance and get more of the output actually to the house battery. you see longer wires have more resistance and cause a voltage drop. this is just wasted energy. you want to use an online voltage drop calculator. i like this one... https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html i personally wont install a with more than a 3% voltage drop and strive to get to 1% but you will have to weigh the extra cost of the heavier gauge wire.
 
hey doug, forgot about your battery question. as you are finding amp hour capacity does not come cheap.

a group 27 like you mention will often be around 80 amp hour capacity. the walmart rv/marine batteries might be a little less and a good real deep cycle like the trojan signature series might be a little higher, at a cost. the trojan basic flooded lead acid (FLA) generally cost about 2 times as much in that size. but if well maintained and properly charged can last much longer. here are some of the deep cycle battery offerings from trojan. i use them as an example partly because they are a quality battery, but mostly because they make it easy to find their specs and i can share them
this link is to the trojan pdf https://tinyurl.com/yxtl684l they have several 12 volt choices at reasonable (not cheap
) prices for their capacity.

these are all FLA and as such require monitoring water levels and should be vented to the outside, not into the living space. you can also get AGM 12v batteries that do not need venting or watering. i recently participated in the cheap rv living/homes on wheels alliance "minivan build" and we used a 100 amp hour AGM house battery from amazon i think it was a renogy for around $200. not sure how true a deep cycle battery it is or how long they last. but it is a reasonable option.

you are not limited to a "12 volt battery" you can use 2 "6 volt batteries" wired in series to get a 12 volt battery bank. a common set up is 2 "golf cart" batteries the form factor is "GC2" if you have room, 2 of those will give you way more capacity and a much longer life if taken care of.

even if you get a pair of golf cart batteries, the ability to run a heater is going to be severely limited. if you found an electric heater that would run on the 400 watt inveter you mention, even a pair of golfcart batteries would only run that for a couple of hours. a pair of golf cart batteries will give you around 200 amp hours of capacity. discharging to half would allow you to use 100 amp hours, even using 80% of the battery bank would only give you 160 amp hours. a 400 watt heater going through an inverter is going to consume around 450-500 wats from the battery. that would be about 40 amps. that gives you a max of 4 hours to run that little heater. then to recharge you would need to do a lot of driving since the battery charging is not 100% efficient and the alternator wont put out full current the whole time. it would probably take at least 6-8 hours driving to get close to full.
 
i can tell you i use a 100 ish amp hour rv/marine battery and it runs my mini fridge/freezer over night and plenty of laptop use through the night as well. it recharges from solar, 435 watts. this battery does fine for one day, but is pushing 2 days if i am parked i the shade and it cant recharge
 
What a can of worms!!

OK, heater is out. Had it, so I mentioned it.

Running 4 gauge wire from the solenoid. Hoping to place house battery behind front seat, in front of bulkhead. I’m guessing 12-15 foot run.

Sounds like a regular car battery is a waste of time. Might suck it up and order an AGM.

If I understand correctly, how low the house battery is determines the amp draw through the solonoid?
 
If I understand correctly, how low the house battery is determines the amp draw through the solonoid?

to an extent yes. a low battery will draw a larger current from the alternator.

when shopping for the battery. just know that "AGM" (absorbed glass mat) is not synonymous with deep cycle. AGM is just the way the electrolyte is. so you have to look at specs to determine if it is a good deep cycle.

the terms i look for when trying to determine if a battery is really deep cycle is the amp hour rating for the 20 hour rate. if you look at the trojan pdf i linked you will notice those batteries are capacity rated in amp hours and they list a couple different rates. i use the 20 hour rate to compare as it is kinda a standard.

a good true deep cycle battery will be rated in amp hours and usually only in amp hours

the more mixed duty, start/deep cycle like the RV/marine will generally be rated in reserve capacity

and starting batteries will be rated in CCA (cold cranking amps)

and all of this is independent of whether it it AGM, FLA, or Gel. you can find starting, deep cycle and rv/marine batteries in all those types.

the Gel and AGM just mean you dont have to check and keep up with watering. but they are more $ and a little more touchy on their charging volts. they can also be easily damaged by charging with to high a voltage. and you cant do a periodic equalization/desulfation charge to make up for not getting fully charged on a regular basis

yep, a big ol'e can o worms. still makes my head spin
 
Gypsy, can you tell me how you recharging from solar would compare to mine recharging from my alternator, timewise? I’m thinking a battery similar to yours would be adequate for our road trip, providing I can charge enough during the day.
 
Also, silly question time... on the voltage drop calculator, what do you enter for amps? Are we talking output of alternator, potential amp usage of your appliances??
 
you would enter the highest amps you expect to pass through the cable. you need to place fuses at both batteries and for that 85 amp solenoid. I would say a 75 amp fuse so that is the number I would use. keep in mind you need to count the distance both ways so 10ft apart would be 20ft.

what makes solar so good is the long charge time. a deeply discharged battery could take 6-8 hours of driving at highway speed to charge. idling doesn't cut it.

highdesertranger
 
DougH71 said:
Also, silly question time... on the voltage drop calculator, what do you enter for amps? Are we talking output of alternator, potential amp usage of your appliances??

not a silly question. the voltage drop calculation is very dependent on the amps. for instance 80 amps would have noticeably more voltage drop than say 40 amps. so i would use the amps in the situation i was most concerned with. in the case of charging off the alternator (already an inherently inefficient method) i personally would use the higher amps around 85amps. but you may find the cost of the cable to be prohibitive. for example, i recently speced out cables to power a 3000 watt inverter that were almost 10' long. we went with 4/0 wire. that stuff was $8 something a foot. ouch! but when we were done there was only 1 tenth of a volt drop from the battery to the inverter when it was pulling 200 amps sustained from the battery bank.

1 tenth of a volt equates roughly to 1 tenth of the battery capacity in a 12 volt system. so with even 1 tenth of a volt drop, it is like starting with a battery that is only 90% full. if you have 2 or 3 tenths drop you are losing a big chunk of your available power right off the bat
 
the voltage drop calculator i linked asks for cable length one way only. but if using other sources so do need cable length out and back.

good point on fusing both ends of the cable. one close to each battery.

i would use 2 circuit breakers or one breaker and one fuse. i would check the specs of both and set the fuse slightly higher than the breaker. that way you only burn the fuse if there is a dangerous short rather than just heavy charge current

from my experience, just connecting with a solenoid the charge drops off rather quick often to only 5-10 amps. i would say over several hours it would be similar to 100-200 watts of solar for the same time. if you drive a lot, you can get way more charge than from solar as you only get 5-6 hours (equivalent) of solar but the car keeps charging as long as you drive

there are more efficient ways (yes, more money too...) that can really crank up the charge you can get from the alternator. one is to use a "battery to battery" charger, often referred to as a B2B charger. these will usually set you back a few hundred bucks for a commercial unit. but a 30 amp model will give you constant 30 amps with proper bulk/absorb/float. if you drive long distances a 30 amp b2b will out perform an 85 amp solenoid.
 
yes, i think a 100 amp hour battery would be a good starting point. since you seam to be just charging from the alternator you will run into not getting the battery fully charged. this will shorten the life of almost all lead acid batteries. so i dont see a reason to spend extra money to buy high quality deep cycle batteries untill you have better charging in place. one exception would be if you wanted more power than just one battery. then you could buy 2 golfcart batteries from costco or batteries plus and sometimes even sams club for the same price as 2 rv/marine batteries. i am all for it if you can get a better battery for the same price
 
Gypsy Freedom said:
the voltage drop calculator i linked asks for cable length one way only. but if using other sources so do need cable length out and back.

Other sources being other calculators? And how would I figure out and back. Going by the videos I've seen, I'm grounding the house battery to the frame, not back to the starting battery.

What do you think of this... https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...group-size-31-top-post-battery/agm31t/4742641

Or, since charging by alternator seems to be the inefficient way, would this be a waste and I just get a cheap, regular 12 volt car battery?
 
if you use the calculator i linked, just use the wire length from one battery to the other. the frame is just going to be one really large cable. so it will be "larger" than what the recommended cable size comes out

that battery looks to be a starting battery. i dont see any reference to deep cycle
 
Not deep cycle, but it is an rv/marine type. Isn't that the style you said you use?

I realize that solar would be the best way to go, but I'm not making that investment until I see how much traveling we do.
If the need arises, I'll invest in a couple quality batteries, charger, etc.
I'm just looking for "good enough" to get me started right now. Again, not sure how often I'll be using this setup.

When it comes down to it, I work in a salvage yard. I could just grab a large capacity used battery from a wreck and have SOMETHING.
One of my drivers uses a regular 12V car battery in his fifth wheel and has not had any issues.
 
Since you are not in it for the long haul yet and have access to a plethora of used batteries I would just find the biggest and best battery in the yard and use that. It should be good enough for short term use. You will probably end up killing it anyway. The saying kinda goes the first battery set is the learning set. Most people murder them by chronically undercharging them and this seems to be the path you are heading down trying to pinch pennies. Not trying to be mean.
 
yeah you left out that little detail. grab the best battery you can from the yard, use it and repeat. I would still hook it up to the alternator even though it's not the best, it's something and you will be driving anyways. highdesertranger
 
lol, yup free battery beats all othr choices. that is sorta why i am using the battery i am. it was just sitting around not getting used. it would have just deteriorated any way so i figured even if it wasnt the best. it was better that letting it go to waste and it is getting the job done for now. great way to get started. if you have room. you can even put a couple in parallel for more capacity.

if you are a lil geeky and like numbers and data. you could grab one of the cheap battery monitors from ebay/amazon like these https://www.amazon.com/s?k=100a+battery+monitor+shunt&ref=nb_sb_noss i have one of the drok but they are all similar. make sure to install it right and then you can keep track of how much power you use each day. this will help you decide how big a battery you want to buy when you are ready to buy a new good deep cycle.

for example you may find you need 2 junkyard batteries to keep you happy. but if those batteries are only performing at say 60% or so of new. it would be hard to figure out what amount of new batteries could replace them. with a meter/monitor like this you could see what your normal and even peak consumption was. so say your normal consumption was 40 amp hours per day and your biggest day was 60amp hours then a 100 ish amp hour battery would be a good size. but if you regularly use 60 or 70 amp hours then you should probably up it to a 200 ish amp hour battery bank

the more you know about your system and usage the better
 
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