National Parks Fee Hikes!

[Charlotte's Web]

Heads up!  From the CA Sacramento Bee newspaper today:  itemized list of proposed national park fee hikes,
which shocked me.  CA, a state maligned by some for its' tough environmental regs, etc is fighting this. 
This article includes a chart that lists all national parks with proposed fee hikes. 

Appalling.  Sad. 
Charlotte
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article186057603.html

 

[Van-Tramp]

Everyone says that the NPS needs more funding... this increase is during peak months only and only in a few of our national parks across this country. I am completely for the fee increases but there should be a carve out for low income people (who should just get in for free to be honest). Our parks have become too overcrowded in recent years and the NPS is spending more money per person to clean up after us then they are generating in revenue from the increase in traffic.

For you and I, who visit regularly, we still just get the annual pass which is still $80 (a super deal no matter what).

 

[NoMadYesHappy]

There is a way that seems right to a man, but the way thereof leads only to higher costs and .... fee hikes.
I did some backpacking up in the Tahoe area when I lived up in Rancho Cordova back in the 70s. Even then, I had to pay someone to allow me to haul my [then skinny] tush up into the woods to live in the dirt for a week. I blame refrigeration, the micro wave oven and Max Weber!

 

[Minivanmotoman]

We all love our parks. Beautiful and pristine, wonders of nature. 
Ever seen the line ups? And at $25-30 to get in?
Underfunded? I am always leery when I hear that. Especially when I see all of the new vehicles, expensive equipment, personnel and departments,...
And it doesn't cost the entrance fee to clean up after me or most. The majority drive in, park, walk around, explore, hike, take pictures, enjoy the moment, get something at the souvenir shop and leave.
Maybe some of the less popular remote parks generate less revenue.
Underfunded? Take that with a grain of salt.
Overexpensed?
A bankruptcy accountant i once knew attributed all bankruptcies to three things. Mngmnt, mngmnt and mngmnt.

 

[waldenbound]

I volunteered at Mt Rainier for awhile, and believe me, those rangers work with next to nothing. I was making flower signs at Sunrise once, and the ranger had a pencil that was a two inch stub. The printer was out of ink, and she didn’t even have a proper paper cutter to cut the signs. It even comes down to looking for the cheapest, one ply toilet paper.

Then a big winter storm comes, causes millions in damage, and guess as what? There goes the budget for printer ink. Not literally, but it takes so much to keep roads open, especially when floods and the freeze and thaw cycle chews them up. The park’s geologist has to constantly measure sediment flow in the rivers. Culverts need to be replaced, bridges in the backcountry need to be replaced. There’s a lot of infrastructure that needs maintenance. It’s not all a matter of emptying the trash cans, and leading nature walks.

 

[NoMadYesHappy]

I agree, the work that Rangers do is worth more than what they are paid. And, I love that the trails I hiked were well kept.

I wonder more about the management, management, management of, not just the park fees, but the whole of the government income stream.

I once burned up some electrons on my calculator to see how many dollars were going into "public" coffers just from property taxes. It's a lot! Enough to fund all of the important things. I guess I am frustrated by the feeling that caring for "we the people" isn't really the goal of those who hold the country's purse strings.

I would love to see a profit and loss statement from Uncle Sam so I can see where 20 trillion bucks a year really goes. I'll bet we could find plenty of fluff in it for Rangers to prosper and thrive with plenty of full length pencils, reams of paper and piles of ink cartridges!

 

[Minivanmotoman]

^^^ Agreed and tried to infer without getting deleted for political commentary. Not for argument sake, ego or opinion, but awareness.
Trying to choose words carefully as some are quick to delete. This is not a public forum. 

Like all organizations and expenses, if one were to analyze it and be aware of all the realities...

There are always profiteers and those down the ladder.
We have sympathy for the actual lower levels while
" management" claims underfunded after completing their expense account, giving a bloated contract to their cousin ( that washed out culvert), cashing in their kick back check, etc...
No organization is underfunded but certain people, areas get a bigger "piece" of the pie. Figuratively, let's not argue about the semantics.

We are so manipulated. Be aware of the rationalization and justifications of those validating expenses. People are getting rich from public coffers quietly. Not a conspiracy theory here but reality.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ever seen the line ups? And at $25-30 to get in? . . .

And it doesn't cost the entrance fee to clean up after me or most . . .

You see the lineup coming in.  What you don't see is the 6 - 8 Chinook helicopters ferrying water to douse forest fires all day for 2 months at $3000 per hour.  Now multiply that by the number of fires this year.  The NPS uses 'fire transfers' to spend the money budgeted for 'ink cartridges and pencils' to fight fires when they run out of fire fighting budget.

 

[lenny flank]

National Parks should, IMHO, be free for everyone. Raise the damn taxes to pay for them. That's what taxes are FOR.

(And limit the number of people allowed in every day, to limit the damage caused by overcrowding and over-visiting.)

 

[Minivanmotoman]

^^^ yes, an over simplification on my part. Overhead and maintenance and extraneous expenses. 
We could chase our tails all day on this on multiple points. All partially correct.

We all love the forest service, rangers in a romantic, idealistic way. When you realize that they are now mostly policing today, and can be heavy handed, not the romance of smokey the bear anymore.

There is a history of gouging and overpricing on awarding contracts/services, with noble emotional appeals to validate costs and increases. All I'm saying is, don't take it all on face value when it appeals to an emotional aspect.
You may be disappointed when you see what's actually underneath that $3000/ hr charge. 
But then again, if you're the pilot or owner, it's ok.
For each to decide, just raising awareness.

 

[rm.w/aview]

It's prolly that pay-to-play, user focused outlook. Hundreds of thousands of citizens have no interest in visiting these parks, and many may be hollering about to much gubbament already. A profit/loss statement's a good idea, although you may need a two-wheeler to cart it around.

 

[lenny flank]

 Hundreds of thousands of citizens have no interest in visiting these parks, and many may be hollering about to much gubbament already.

I suppose those are the same people who grumble and bitch about paying school taxes even though they have no kids in school. If they think "education" is too expensive or they shouldn't have to pay for it, they should try a society based on "ignorance" and see how well it works.

People like that are simply greedy bastards. 

Taxes pay for "civilization". And I *like* "civilization".

 

[rm.w/aview]

Agreed!

 

[Thirsty Boots Nomad]

I suppose those are the same people who grumble and bitch about paying school taxes even though they have no kids in school. If they think "education" is too expensive or they shouldn't have to pay for it, they should try a society based on "ignorance" and see how well it works.

After talking, and at various points trying to train for employment, several "younger" people (ie. since the "No Child Left Behind" crap); I'm not sure our current society is that far from it now --- and that's as political as I'll get.

 

[Ballenxj]

For you and I, who visit regularly, we still just get the annual pass which is still $80 (a super deal no matter what).

Got mine last year when it was $10. for a lifetime senior pass.

 

[highdesertranger]

isn't the main purpose of the parks to preserve the parks in a pristine natural state. how are paved roads, curbs, gutters, sidewalks, foot bridges, auto bridges, gift shops, restaurants, motels, 5 star hotels, cabins, stores, amphitheaters, campgrounds, picnic tables, fire rings, all the infrastructure that goes with a city, electrical, water, sewer, wi-fi, high speed internet, cell phone service, dial up phones, etc, etc..... how is any of this stuff preserving in a natural state. hate to break the news but fires are part of the natural ecosystem. so how much does it actually cost to preserve nature in a natural state? they are not preserving the parks the are turning them into Disneyland. my 2 cents. let the flogging begin. highdesertranger

 

[Ballenxj]

isn't the main purpose of the parks to preserve the parks in a pristine natural state.  how are paved roads,  curbs,  gutters, sidewalks,  foot bridges,  auto bridges,  gift shops,   restaurants,  motels,  5 star hotels,  cabins,  stores,  amphitheaters,  campgrounds,  picnic tables,  fire rings,  all the infrastructure that goes with a city,  electrical,  water,  sewer,  wi-fi,  high speed internet,  cell phone service,  dial up phones,  etc,  etc.....  how is any of this stuff preserving in a natural state.  hate to break the news but fires are part of the natural ecosystem.  so how much does it actually cost to preserve nature in a natural state?  they are not preserving the parks the are turning them into Disneyland.  my 2 cents. let the flogging begin. 

Valid points, but they have to justify raising the rates for leaving nature alone somehow? :dodgy:

 

[lenny flank]

I quite agree with highdesertranger.

That is why we should limit the number of people allowed into the parks per day. And I think we should remove much of that infrastructure. Want "wild"? Then maintain "wild". Want "all the comforts of home"? Then stay home.

PS--that very same argument is raging over Civil War and Revolutionary War battlefields, from Gettysburg to Brandywine, which are steadily being overrun by hotels, highways, and vacation amenities.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . . You may be disappointed when you see what's actually underneath that $3000/ hr charge. 

Sikorski has a very complete cost breakdown on their website for the Chinook, letting prospective buyers how much it is going to cost to fly one.  Look at it and decide for yourself.  It was done in 2002 so I would expect the cost is significantly higher now.

My point was that there are a lot of things that entrance fee provides other than cleaning up after the visitors.  IMO the costs of preservation and management of the parks should be funded with tax dollars.  The 'tourist' stuff should be paid for by the users.

I suppose those are the same people who grumble and bitch about paying school taxes even though they have no kids in school. If they think "education" is too expensive or they shouldn't have to pay for it, they should try a society based on "ignorance" and see how well it works . . .

NO.  My experience is that our public schools are graduating ignorance. The b!tch among some of us is that we are paying for Snap-On quality and getting Harbor Freight junk.  I tutor high school students that are wanting to major in one of the STEM fields.  Some of them are very poor readers, more have serious problems with reading comprehension and most of them have never been taught how to solve a problem.  And don't get me started on 'New Math'; I've spent countless hours teaching high school students how to do simple arithmetic.

 

[Ballenxj]

That is why we should limit the number of people allowed into the parks per day. And I think we should remove much of that infrastructure. Want "wild"? Then maintain "wild". Want "all the comforts of home"? Then stay home.

True "Wild" does not require maintenance. A caged animal on the other hand does.