Minnesota Tragedy

Van Living Forum

Help Support Van Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Optimistic Paranoid

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
4,534
Reaction score
10
No politics, no cop-bashing, please.

As of right now, based on preliminary information, a man was pulled over for a broken - or burnt out - taillight.  After being asked for his license and registration, he informed the police officer that he had a CCW permit and was legally armed.  He then reached for his wallet.  The cop heard him say that he had a gun, saw him reaching for his wallet, and immediately ordered him to stop.  This apparently confused the driver, who was trying to obey his order to produce his license and registration.  When he didn't stop reaching, the officer panicked and shot and killed him.

The driver was black.  The officer was white.  I won't speculate on how that influenced the events.  I will not assume that because I'm white, it can't happen to me.

Since many of us carry, and travel a lot outside our home states, lets discuss any lessons we can learn from this.

Some states have a LEGAL REQUIREMENT that someone carrying CCW must inform any LEO he comes into contact with.  Last time I checked on Handgun Law, they were:

AK, AR, LA, MI, NC, NE, OH, OK, SC, and TX.

Personally, If I'm travelling in any other state, I'm not going to tell the cop I'm carrying.

Lets note that MN is NOT on that list, so the driver was NOT required to inform the cop that he was armed.  I have to wonder if the driver was told to do so in any course he might have taken in connection with applying for his CCW?  Has anyone here taken any of the NRA courses recently?  Any idea what they have to say about this?

I suppose if we're from out of state, we could just pretend we weren't aware of the requirement. If it comes up somehow, "I'm sorry, officer.  My home state doesn't have any such requirement and I didn't realize this state does."  Might work, although you might get the old "Ignorance of the law is no excuse!" lecture while he's writing you up.

I was stopped for a minor traffic infraction here in NY a few years back.  When I was reaching for my license, the trooper saw my CT non-resident CCW and freaked.  Asked me no less than three times if I was carrying a gun.  As part of the - polite - discussion we had, he made it very clear that he did NOT agree with the theory that someone who passed all of the background checks must be one of the good guys.  "Lots of people with CCW's shouldn't have guns."  was the way he put it.

Anyway, I have since re-organized my wallet so that none of my CCWs are visible unless or until I dig them out.

I'm also considering leaving my driver's license with my registration and insurance card on my sun visor.  I can carry my passport card in my wallet to provide legal ID while I'm away from my vehicle.  Of course, this only works if you only have one vehicle that you drive.

The other possibility is that if you're being pulled over, you immediately take your wallet out and put it on the dashboard as soon as you stop, so you won't have to reach into a pocket when the cop asks for it.

Other thoughts and ideas?
 
I believe most (if not all, I do not know for sure) of the states that require you to notify the officer only require that IF and WHEN the officer asks you specifically about it. I do not think you should offer that information up until you are required to meet the written law (and yes you should follow the law even if you do not agree with them). The NRA courses I took all said the same.

Immediately taking your wallet out is a good idea.

Announcing what you are doing with your hands is another.

But, you should not have to do either. We should not be in fear for our lives every time a LEO pulls us over no matter the reason for being pulled over, or our skin color, or if we are legally armed or not. They should be [better] trained in DE-escalation and not jump straight to pulling a trigger when they are "scared". If they can not do this or are too "scared" to think rationally in a moment of heat, then they should lose their jobs, plain and simple.
 
In Michigan we are required to inform the LEO that we have a CPL and whether or not we have a weapon with us. We must immediately volunteer this information when first contacted by the LEO.
 
It is getting harder to know what to do and where.
I don't carry because of this confusion factor but sure can sympathize with those that do.
 
In TX you were, last I knew, required to show any LEO who ASKS FOR YOUR DL your CHL, it was a state requirement last I took the course, That might have changed with the extension of 'castle doctrine' to enclosed vehicles I did not take the NRA course, I got my CHL training from a very pro gun police officer who was teaching the course because he wanted more armed citizens
This is his recommendations for a traffic stop

1 Pull over as far as safely possible. This doesn't mean put your car in a ditch, but if, when the cop exits his cruiser, he's standing on grass, you're sending him a message 'I care about your safety' personally, if possible I like to pull into a parking lot before stopping (I will communicate to the officer that I mean to do this with hand gestures)

2 While pulling over, turn on your dome light and roll down your window, it's very disquieting to see your traffic stop digging around in the car when you're walking up to it

3 Hands on the wheel or in plain sight

4 As soon as he approaches, tell him
"Officer, for our mutual safety, I want to inform you that I am Liscenced to carry a concealed handgun, and I have a concealed handgun in my ______"
At this point the officer may make you get out and disarm you for the duration of the stop, or not, at his discretion
 
Van-Tramp said:
Immediately taking your wallet out is a good idea. 

Announcing what you are doing with your hands is another.

I would add keep your hands were they can see them like on the steering wheel and having bright dome lights and have them turned on so they have good visibility.
 
Common sense says, "After you tell the LEO you're carrying, you wait for his diirection."

Hopefully, if you're handling weapons you have at least a little commons sense. It seems the guy in the OP did not
 
I was red lighted in N. CA in the 80's.  This was on a country road.  I put on my flashers, and continued to a large turn out.  The local LEO's asked me for my paperwork.  I told them it was in the glove,  I was told to get it, and without moving I informed them about the gun that was also in there.  

They found a sealed container with a 1/2 joint in another part of the truck.  I was completely cooperative, and told them I could get the 357 back if they took it in, as I had proof of purchase at home.  (They dumped the weed.)   I got a fix it ticket, and they handed me the gun back, while thanking me for being honest about it.

In the police log, I read nothing about my stop, but someone else had a ,25 and gave them a hard time.  He was locked up.  

If someone caries a gun and a badge for a living, do not make a move without being 100% sure it will not cause a problem.  Announce each move before you make it, so there are no misunderstandings. Smile, joke with them.  Anything to ease their mind.   LEO is extremely scared lately, and I refuse to be a statistic or part of the problem.
 
The smart thing is to not carry a gun.But we've had this discussion before.Meanwhile,5 dead cops in Dallas.
 
I respectfully disagree that it's smarter to not carry a gun, depending on the person
 
I carry 99% of the time, and have been pulled over quite a few times on My M/C.
Depending on the length of the trip I either put the weapon in the tank bag or carry as normal conceal.
It makes sense NOT to say "I HAVE A GUN" that is like a freeze word that a LEO recognizes as a very bad thing. Fight or Flight takes over.

I say nothing, wait for instruction, If asked for DL I simply pull out both CHL and DL and hand them over. This allows the officer to process what is going on with out the GUN word ever being said.
I was pulled over about 5 years ago in a very similar situation, My 5 yo son, wife and Myself. in TX coming back from a Dr. visit for the 5yo.
It was late at night and along a drug corridor, My plate light was out and this cop was look for a drug bust no doubt.
I handed him the CHL and DL. He asked where it was, I replied on My right hip, His comment next was" leave it there You dont show Me yours and I wont show you Mine" He finished checking papers and let us go.

Another time I had My gun in the tank bag with MY wallet, after some conversation witch never included the G word the officer let Me get the wallet Knowing the
weapon was in there also. No harm No foul.

I think the moral is use your head if you are going to carry act right and THINK before you say or do anything.
 
Bob Dickerson said:
The smart thing is to not carry a gun...

And I would seriously argue if it is the "smart thing" to do. Maybe for you, but certainly not for me.

I'm with USACelt. I carry pretty much all the time (unless I am drinking). I have been a passenger in a vehicle that was pulled over recently, gun on my hip (as usual) and did not say a word about it. If I were asked, I would have informed him (following AZ law), but I kept my hands and movements within reason. Everyone went about their business in a few minutes time. No shots fired, no arrests, no tickets... It's really not that hard.

In hotter months I may open-carry due to less clothing. Last year I was walking to the dog park and there was a traffic stop happening on the corner. Two police cars, 3 officers, pulling over a single car, and I was walking past, openly carrying. One of the officers simply rotated his posture to keep me in sight at all times, as he should, while I walked past. Again, no shots fired, no arrests, no violation of rights or discourtesy from anyone. He did his job (covering himself and his fellow officers) while I went about my day, well within my rights.

Just a few weeks ago, while camped in a national forest, once again openly carrying, a Federal LEO approached. I walked towards him, 30 feet or so, with my right hand extended (I carry on my right hip) and we shook hands, hand a very civil conversation with smiles and jokes before he wished me a goo day and left. Again, no shots, no deaths, no arrests, no rights trampled, nothing.

Carrying really is not that scary or deadly or unsafe. Most cops do not treat you any differently when you are carrying (at least in my experiences). Surely you should use some caution, respect, and be more aware of your surroundings, but beyond that - in most states - it is business as usual for the LEOs.
 
Ill add one thing every single time I have been stopped(plenty) since I have had a CHL( going on 10y) I have never gotten a ticket. LOL
Maybe Irish luck OR?
 
Bob Dickerson said:
The smart thing is to not carry a gun.But we've had this discussion before.Meanwhile,5 dead cops in Dallas.

That's way to open ended of a statement.  Humans are humans and they are far from perfect, they will never be perfect, there will always be people that wish to do harm to others.  There is  nothing wrong with anyone wanting to provide themselves with their own protection.

I've been pulled over with a concealed handgun, officer asked if I had a weapon on me after they ran my license.  I said yes, he asked where, I told him, he said please leave it there and your hands on the wheel.  Did as he asked, told me to slow down a bit and have a good evening.  Thousands of people get pulled over every day and have a gun, in  most cases everyone is fine.  Same for unarmed people being pulled over.  Media has a way of scaring everyone into thinking things are worse than they are.
 
I carry all the time, even when I just step outside for a smoke I have a Baby Glock tucked in my shorts. The off duty cops that work security here approached me a couple of times but I was doing nothing illegal and I want the neighbors to know I am armed.

I watched the Mn. video and read the secondary cops comments and it seems that the cop was scared from the start. Anytime you have a person, be it cop or anyone, that is scared and shaky and holding a weapon the results are usually bad.

I differ from Van-Tramp in that I always tell the cop I have a weapon and where it is. Who's to say who is right?

I have strong feelings about the Militarization of Police and the lack of training for small police forces using weapons they are not qualified or trained to use. If you look at the cops pistol in Mn. he had every gadget he could stick on that pistol. Five shots at close range and not one kill shot. The man bled out.

When I left Government service I swore I would never take another life... But I am not going to let someone take my life without a fight.

Peace to all and better days Rob
 
I was 4yo when Papa stood me between his knees and put his single shot 22 rifle in my hands and told me to shoot that water moccasin in the head.  Weapons were not discussed a lot in our home other than to never touch them unless Papa was with me.......I guess as I child I thought and accepted that everyone's Papa had a pistol under the side pillow in bed and a shot gun or rifle behind the bedroom door.  We were not a family of criminals or in law enforcement.  As a matter of fact I did spend a lot of time playing in the office of then Dallas County's Sheriff Bill Decker while they "TCB".   Years later after Papas death I learned that there may have been a very real threat to my family's  safety with me being the primary abduction target.  True or not, I don't know even now.

I married at 17yo and our first home had 2 bd.rms. and the gun room.  I've worked nearly  5yrs in TX within the criminal justice system.

RE: LEO training and CCP.  I have seen in some areas employment criteria for Police Officers education listed in the newspaper classifieds as needing only a GED or High School diploma and willing to pursue certification or licence by their state as a Law Enforcement Officer if hired.  On  a recent 911 shots fired call I made the dispatcher asked if I wanted Officer contact when they responded....really? I told them IF the shooter was watching I rather they not be lead right to my door.  This was the second time I'd been asked this in the 6yrs I've been here.  I do not remember that as part of the  emer. dispatch training course I attended.

I'm a over 50 female in a 25yo Ranger pick-up.  I'm law abiding and rarely stopped.  When I am if I can't have my license and Ins. card in my hands with them in plain sight on the steering wheel before the  officer is even with my tail lights I stop rummaging and place both hands open on the wheel.  Every traffic stop has the potential to escalate and the LEO has to be prepared to respond accordingly.  I make damn sure to do all I can to present myself in the most none threatening way I can and so far that has worked for me.

I do not have a CCP at this time however I have in the past.  In the spring I will be driving close to 1,500 mls alone and will be armed and have a CCP.  Incidents like the OP do worry me, and as I will be traveling thru several states going  NW out of AL I need to learn about the concealed carry laws for each state I'll be going thru.
 
My thoughts tonight are for the families of the fallen LEO's and the family of the victim in the OP...not that it will help.             JEWELLANN
 
I have no reason to own a gun and really have no opinion on the 2nd amendment etc....However, I have noticed a pattern amongst the people who talk about it. They all seem to agree that the police should have special training to handle the firearms they use, special checks to assess their mindset etc and thats a good thing. However, I also notice that a lot of these same people feel that anyone should be able to own a gun, whether they have any training or not. A bit of a contradiction in my mind.
One thing is certain, something has to change....the shooting of people, be it cops or citizens has to be dealt with. It will take some give from both sides of the debate to solve it, I am sure
 
The police should be better trained then average Joe on the street. They are doing a job/service and should be held to a higher standard, should they not? I never hear people say they should have special firearm training, but they should have better training in deescalation and personal emotional control. Unfortunately, the police are actually held to a completely DIFFERENT standard then average Joe on the street. They can bypass CCW requirements in all states, even after retired. An LEO can still own a firearm even after being convicted of domestic violence. They can bypass safe-storage laws. They can bypass magazine limit laws. And they get tax payer paid defenses when they have a bad shoot (and often get off without any punishment). And they actually lose/misplace thousands of guns (including fully auto) across this country every year from poor training and storage without any penalty or charges.

I also agree that there should be no GOV REQUIRED training to purchase or own a gun by the average citizen. First, the average citizen does not carry it on him (as the police do) and second, there are many ways to be trained (by family for instance) that does not give you a certificate but still give the same amount of "training". In fact, some people start shooting at 4 years old and by the time they are 18 years old, have more "training" then when I took my Basic Pistol course from NRA to get my certification. Lastly, firing a gun really is not a high-skill task. It can be done by a child, and done well even with minimal training. Most of the "training" is not associated with the act of using a gun, but the legalities of CARRYING a gun in public. Since most (100+ million gun owners, and less than 12 million CCW permits in the country) do not do that, why should there be a government mandated training to purchase or own?

Ironically, stats show CCW holders get more training (both before and after getting the permit) then most LEO... and even most military folks. It is a huge industry (firearm training) and very widespread across the entire country. So even without a government mandate, most get more training then if there were a mandate.
 
I also think cops should be held to higher standards. It's their profession and something they are likely to face in their career as opposed to citizens who will most likely never be in a situation that it needs to be used. I also think most citizens that carry guns have a lot of experience with them. I started shooting at 7 years old with my dad, learned how to respect them, clean them, maintain them, etc. I was on the local Sportsmen's Club Junior Rifle team from 12 to 18 years old. I've probably fired more rounds than most career police officers before I was 18.

Now take my best friend's brother in law. He is 27 years old and was hired as a full time police officer last year. Prior to Police academy he had never held or fired a gun. He has said he doesn't like guns and isn't comfortable around them. If he's not on Duty he locks it up and forgets he owns one. The only time it gets used is during re-certification. He's nervous around his own firearm so he will absolutely be nervous around someone that has one during a routine traffic stop. And I'm not so sure it's not police like him that end up shooting an otherwise innocent person during what should be a regular traffic violation.
 
I think training in de-escalation and empathy is generally overlooked at all except the largest police agencies. Its more fun to be trained in automatic weapons and SWAT tactics than it is on how to calm a tense situation either as a domestic call or on the street.

I have read that women serving as police have a natural ability in these areas and are more effective then men in calming emotional and charged situations.

The police will react to situations based upon their training. I believe it is the input (training) which is missing key elements resulting in the output (police action and reaction) becoming deadly when it could be mitigated using other methods.

I'm not trying to be all warm and fuzzy in my view; I have a CCW and carry every where I go. Its just that there is obviously something missing for all the people getting killed by police in what starts as a routine and unthreatening, and then ends up with someone dying.

Just my opinion . . .
 
Top