Minivan: Propane & Battery Installation

[ascii_man]

I've been underneath a full-size cargo van, and the frame rails allow pretty good space for mounting batteries and LPG tank.

Is it practical to install batteries and a propane tank underneath a Dodge Grand Caravan (especially 3rd & 4th generation, i.e., 1996-2007)?

 

[LeeRevell]

I take it yours does not have the underfloor Stow&Go seats?  My 2005 GC does have the Stow&Go seats, and I am planning to remove the middle and rear seats, and use the middle stowage bins for a battery and possibly a fresh water tank.  Back bin will be for camping gear.
I haven't checked the other areas underneath yet.  With the GC's very low ground clearance I would be leery of installing a propane tank. 
I have been getting some bottoming out issues, and am looking at options for lifting and stiffening the rear a bit. 
On these older GC vans, check your front steering and suspension.  I just had to get my tie rod ends replaced, and four new tires today.  I new I was getting some shimmy up front, but after the work, it rides like a new vehicle!
I will be soon needing new rear shocks and front struts too.  Age and miles take their toll.
I opted for Bridgestone Dueler SUV tires, giving me a bit better load capability and reliability than the car tires we have normally.  I think I gained just a bit more ground clearance too, which will help if installing anything underneath.

 

[Canine]

To be legal and safe install only tanks approved for being installed underneath. There is a name for those tanks, but it eludes me. They are expensive- a few hundred to several hundred dollars. You may be able to find used ones, but propane tanks need to be recertified every few years.

Lithium batteries may be a better option for you. No outgassing. Very small and lightweight. If your electrical needs are small enough, one lithium would work. Would be so much easier than trying to find the space underneath. People sometimes cut into the floor of their van, attach a box to that, and drop a battery or two in there. This helps with access, too; no matter what kind of batteries you get, you still need to give them a look-see every once in a while.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

To be legal and safe install only tanks approved for being installed underneath. There is a name for those tanks, but it eludes me. They are expensive- a few hundred to several hundred dollars. You may be able to find used ones, but propane tanks need to be recertified every few years.

They are known as ASME tanks.  As in American Society of Mechanical Engineers.  As far as I can find, they are certified for life.  The various sizes of white BBQ type "tanks" are technically not "tanks", they are known as DOT Cylinders or DOT bottles.  DOT = Department of Transportation.  They are the ones that need to be recertified every so often - I think it's every 12 years.

ASME tanks are permanently mounted to the frame.  DOT bottles are removable for transport or refilling, which is why DOT is involved.

Regards
John

 

[Goshawk]

Asme and dot. Dammed government regulation. I want to blow up in peace. Or pieces. -- seriously good to know someone is looking at this scientifically.

 

[LeeRevell]

For a vanner on a tight budget, Lithium batteries are just not gonna fly, for obvious reasons.  More than just the cost.
For my E150 Conversion Van, I am looking at a space beneath the floor for eventual battery box install, but for right now, they reside in the back corner in vented marine boxes.
For the GC minivan, the underfloor storage tubs are plastic - need to fabricate a supporting structure so the marine battery won't break the tub and fall through.  That space will be vented too.  I intend to remain with FLA batteries, as that is what I know and am accustomed to.  Maybe not the 'best' choice, but plenty good for my needs.  I can upgrade later if needs be.
I look at photos of full size vans with the frame mounted propane tanks, and I am always struck by how open and prone to damage the valving seems to be.  Again, I will stay with the inside 20lb tank...uh.....  cylinder.  I can refill them in many places quite easily.  Or do the swap out if I can't find a refilling place.

As with most things in life, we have our individual choices.  What works for me may not work for you, and vice-versa.

 

[ascii_man]

> I take it yours does not have the underfloor Stow&Go seats? 

I'm in the process of buying my first van (second vehicle purchase in my life).  My budget barely allows Stow 'n Go if I were absolutely sure it's what I wanted, so I'm probably going to start out with something cheaper and therefore older, as a proof-of-concept prototype.

> I haven't checked the other areas underneath yet.  With the GC's very low ground clearance I would be leery of installing a propane tank. 
> I have been getting some bottoming out issues, and am looking at options for lifting and stiffening the rear a bit. 

That's the kind of information I was seeking.  I'm trying to decide whether a minivan is really enough for my needs.

> On these older GC vans, check your front steering and suspension.  I just had to get my tie rod ends replaced, and four new tires today.  I new I was getting some shimmy up front, but
The GC I'm looking at definitely needs tie rods.  What was the parts & labor for the tie rods?

 

[ascii_man]

To be legal and safe install only tanks approved for being installed underneath. There is a name for those tanks, but it eludes me. They are expensive- a few hundred to several hundred dollars. You may be able to find used ones, but propane tanks need to be recertified every few years.

Lithium batteries may be a better option for you. No outgassing. Very small and lightweight. If your electrical needs are small enough, one lithium would work. Would be so much easier than trying to find the space underneath. People sometimes cut into the floor of their van, attach a box to that, and drop a battery or two in there. This helps with access, too; no matter what kind of batteries you get, you still need to give them a look-see every once in a while.

Yeah, here's one supplier of ASME tanks for Vanagons.  The question is just whether they would fit on a Grand Caravan.
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23916

I've considered Lithium batteries for my electrical system, but electric heat is utterly impractical in the climates I like, at least beyond a blanket. Lithium batteries are expensive, and some people are not getting the lifespan they want from them. Also, in a minivan, every bit of space is going to be critical.

 

[ascii_man]

For my E150 Conversion Van, I am looking at a space beneath the floor for eventual battery box install, but for right now, they reside in the back corner in vented marine boxes.

I look at photos of full size vans with the frame mounted propane tanks, and I am always struck by how open and prone to damage the valving seems to be.  Again, I will stay with the inside 20lb tank...uh.....  cylinder.  I can refill them in many places quite easily.  Or do the swap out if I can't find a refilling place.

Have you considered building a propane cylinder & battery enclosure on top one of those a hitch-mounted trays that people use to haul coolers?  
https://www.stowaway2.com/hitch-mount-cargo-rack.aspx

 

[LeeRevell]

Have you considered building a propane cylinder & battery enclosure on top one of those a hitch-mounted trays that people use to haul coolers?  
https://www.stowaway2.com/hitch-mount-cargo-rack.aspx

Yes, but the long moment of the hitch-haul puts too much weight too far back, causing the bottoming out issue.  Maybe use it on my big van but definitely not on the GC.  I have to use a raised hitch tow bar too, as the hitch is very low.

Total on the tie rods was north of $200.  I haven't looked at the receipt to itemize it all yet.  It wasn't cheap but it was getting critical.  Not replacing them would simply wear the new tires quickly, as it would make an alignment impossible.

 

[Canine]

 Also, in a minivan, every bit of space is going to be critical.

Boy, you got that right! Not much wiggle room for sure. I wonder if using your car's battery would work? Not the stock one of course, but the biggest, baddest one you can fit in there. While not ideal, a deep cycle should be able to comfortably start a V-6. It isn't a Ford 460. Should starting problems occur, an aftermarket starter may work better with a deep cycle type of battery that is more effected by high draws from devices like a standard starter.

You could cut out the fender-well a smidge and lower the battery tray. Maybe move the windshield fluid tank or other pieces to give you more room. An inch or two in height and a couple/three inches in circumference would get you a much larger relative capacity. They make sensors that switch your electricity off if you go below a certain voltage, so you needn't worry about having too low of a battery in the morning.

I don't know, but there may be oddball sized batteries that may fit better in your application. A Battery Warehouse or some such thing may have some surprisingly good answers.

Am just throwing stuff out there. I'm sure this isn't a novel idea and that info is likely hiding out there in the Interwebs somewheres. If you get lucky, your specific model may have already been adapted for a larger than stock battery that would be suitable for a vandweller, so you wouldn't have to figure it out.

 

[LeeRevell]

Battery fit in a Gen Four GC is pretty tight.  Big fuse box right next to it, and brake master cylinder behind it.  Might drop it down a bit, I'll have to look.  But offhand, I don't think it would be worth the effort to try a bigger battery.

 

[ascii_man]

Boy, you got that right! Not much wiggle room for sure.

Battery fit in a Gen Four GC is pretty tight.  Big fuse box right next to it, and brake master cylinder behind it.  Might drop it down a bit, I'll have to look.  But offhand, I don't think it would be worth the effort to try a bigger battery.

Thanks a lot to both of you for the help.  I was really having a hard time trying to decide between a Grand Caravan and a full-size; I was really considering buying both, in addition to keeping my beloved and fully-depreciated coupe.  Based on this thread, a visit to a nearby town to check the clearance on their parking garages, some fuel economy calculations (versus the cost of parking, registering, insuring, and maintaining a third vehicle), I've decided to buy a full-size van (only).

A minivan might work for someone who was smaller and also has more time to devote to the optimization engineering required to use the smaller space.

 

[LeeRevell]

Thanks a lot to both of you for the help.  I was really having a hard time trying to decide between a Grand Caravan and a full-size; I was really considering buying both, in addition to keeping my beloved and fully-depreciated coupe.  Based on this thread, a visit to a nearby town to check the clearance on their parking garages, some fuel economy calculations (versus the cost of parking, registering, insuring, and maintaining a third vehicle), I've decided to buy a full-size van (only).

A minivan might work for someone who was smaller and also has more time to devote to the optimization engineering required to use the smaller space.

Agreed.  My minivan is my daily driver and utility vehicle.  Sometimes used for a couple nights camping.  But I'd hate to have to live in (or 'out of') a minivan.  My E150 is much roomier though still fairly tight for a big guy.  I have my S&B so it isn't a problem at this point.  One day I may go "fulltime vannin' ".  But not til I get onto Social Security at least.  That is a few years away.

 

[ascii_man]

I have my S&B

What's an S&B?

 

[LeeRevell]

What's an S&B?

"Sticks&Bricks" home.  Real estate vs. Wheel estate.