looking at adding a solar panel

[SternWake]

If not cycling the batteries nightly, then absorption voltage does not need to be held for as long as it would if the battery were cycled deeply the night before. This is another reason why I recommend the charge controller with adjustable setpoints even if it is more than one wants to spend initially.

The Wagan 400 watt will charge the makita batteries fine. I have the same wagan and i bought it primarily for the makita charger.
Replace those 6 incandescent 194 bulbs with LED bulbs and your power consumption will lower drastically.

These are my favorite 194's, great warmish color, more efficient than most LED bulbs, but a little pricey.

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-12966...71097526&sr=1-43&keywords=t+10++white+led+168

These are twice as bright as a 194 incandescent but fire forward and will not make use of more reflectors, but in my opinion it does not need to. Much better than all other 194 t10 wedge base bulbs i've tried, and I have dozens I've tried. a few were fairly good, most were too dim and too blue and some just outright failed with not too much use.

do you have 2 house batteries or just one house and one engine battery?

I have 200 watts and use just one flooded group 31 battery at 130 Amp hours and the two make for a happy combo, and my usage is similar, very similar to your expected usage.

The key is really being able to change solar absorption setpoints, and even if going overbudget to get this adjustable controller, it will save you money in the long run, especially since you have more expensive AGM batteries.

 

[05kas05]

i have 2 house batteries they are rated at 105ah each and a starter battery , this is my primary vehicle it gets driven daily to and from work about 20 - 30 miles total
i am going to change the bulbs to those led's for sure actually i might just order them in the next day or so.

 

[anm]

...
A can't stress the importance enough of adjustable absorption voltage and float voltages. Each and every battery will be different and their requirements will change as the battery ages. A one size fits all un adjustable charging algorithm is a recipe for premature battery failure if the main recharging source is to always be solar. Even with some morning alternator contribution, time at absorption voltage is needed. and the correct absorption voltage for the battery is just as important.
...

@SternWake: My system is going to be just solar, I'm not planning to hook the house system up to the alternator. BUT would I be better off occasionally charging the house batteries with the alternator, say maybe once a week? Keep in mind that I'm going to use an AGM type battery and won't be able to measure SG...

 

[SternWake]

AGM batteries, with their lower internal resistance, can really accept huge charging currents.

The Alternator, if wired to the depleted batteries with thick cable, can be an excellent bulk charger.

But AGM batteries can easily ask for everything the alternator is capable of making and shorten its life as it gets that much hotter.

Battery charging is all about opportunistic charging to keep the batteries as close to fully charged as possible, whenever possible.

My alternator can do in an hour what takes my Solar all day to achieve in the winter.

Certainly it is simpler to not include a method to allow alternator charging of house batteries, but why deny the batteries what they crave.

80% charged is usually where a battery reduces the amount of current it can accept9 more current would push the voltage higher than the voltage regulator/ solar controller/ other chargng source would allow, but healthy AGM's are likely closer to 90%. So you will often hear how much faster AGM batteries can charge, and this is true, to some degree, depending on the charging source and the copper thickness and length feeding them.

But if you cannot take advantage of the ability of agm's thirstier nature than they are no faster at recharging than flooded batteries.

Also some lesser quality AGMs have higher resistance than the top dogs like Odyssey, lifeline and Northstar, so they are not quite as capable of gobbling up the higher current as their "pure lead plate' brethern.

You can always add a method to feed the house batteries down the road, it is not like solar where you should have everything you need the first time, as opposed to learning it is not enough and that upgrading requires more expense and effort than the original installation.

it can be simple too, many methods, but one of the best and easiest and is automatic is the Blue seas ACR, automatic charge relay.

http://www.bluesea.com/resources/1366

 

[akrvbob]

If you go this page you can see why I don't recommend the 140 Kyocera panel:

http://www.solar-electric.com/solar...ssories/solarpanels/kyocera-solar-panels.html

The cheapest Kyocera 140 watt panel is $275 but you can buy a Kyocera 250 watt panel for $20 LESS, $257.

It is a high voltage panel so you will need a high voltage controller. I recommend the Blue Sky sb2512ix-hv. It's $220 plus you have to buy a display. The cheapest display i s$96 and a very smart display is $180. A cable to to monitor the temperature of your battery is $32

http://www.solar-electric.com/inver...ergy-solar-charge-controller-sb2512ix-hv.html

That's all in your budget and is a top-notch system!! However, those big panels are very expensive to ship if you aren't nearby to pick it up yourself.
Bob

 

[anm]

AGM batteries, with their lower internal resistance, can really accept huge charging currents.

The Alternator, if wired to the depleted batteries with thick cable, can be an excellent bulk charger.

But AGM batteries can easily ask for everything the alternator is capable of making and shorten its life as it gets that much hotter.

Battery charging is all about opportunistic charging to keep the batteries as close to fully charged as possible, whenever possible.

My alternator can do in an hour what takes my Solar all day to achieve in the winter.

Certainly it is simpler to not include a method to allow alternator charging of house batteries, but why deny the batteries what they crave.

80% charged is usually where a battery reduces the amount of current it can accept9 more current would push the voltage higher than the voltage regulator/ solar controller/ other chargng source would allow, but healthy AGM's are likely closer to 90%. So you will often hear how much faster AGM batteries can charge, and this is true, to some degree, depending on the charging source and the copper thickness and length feeding them.

But if you cannot take advantage of the ability of agm's thirstier nature than they are no faster at recharging than flooded batteries.

Also some lesser quality AGMs have higher resistance than the top dogs like Odyssey, lifeline and Northstar, so they are not quite as capable of gobbling up the higher current as their "pure lead plate' brethern.

You can always add a method to feed the house batteries down the road, it is not like solar where you should have everything you need the first time, as opposed to learning it is not enough and that upgrading requires more expense and effort than the original installation.

it can be simple too, many methods, but one of the best and easiest and is automatic is the Blue seas ACR, automatic charge relay.

http://www.bluesea.com/resources/1366

@SternWake: I was looking at the Blue Sea ACRs a few weeks ago, almost bought one on eBay, looks like maybe I should have...

 

[SternWake]

The Blue seas have two versions, one is a single sense, the other dual sense.

The single sense detects charging voltages on one battery and then connects the batteries in parallel.

The Dual sense detects charging voltages on either battery and connects the batteries in parallel.

With Solar, i recommend using just the single sense.

My reasoning is one wants all the solar current going into the depleted house bank, and not sharing some % of current with the engine battery.

If the engine battery is fully charged it will not require much current to bring it upto 14.8 volts, probably anywhere from 0.8 to 1.2 anmps, but this current is better off going into only the depleted house battery.

One of the Blue seas ACR's models comes with a remote switch/button to manually parallel the batteries. With this you can press a button and jumpstart the engine battery from the house battery, or force them in parallel when you have excess solar current available to top charge the engine battery.

It is not the cheapest way to allow the alternator to feed house batteries but is one of the best and automatic methods out there, with the manual option of forced paralleling.

 

[anm]

If I was going to go with Blue Sea I would follow your recommendation and use a single sense ACR, and possibly I will in the future, but for now after everything else they're too expensive. I'll go with a continuous duty solenoid, but manually controlled...

 

[RogueRV2]

I just confirmed that my el'cheapo Renology 30 amp charge controller, the Model PWM30CC, is in fact charging my batteries to capacity by using a temperature compensated specific gravity 'battery tester', NAPA part #700-145. As winter sets in I'll be verifying it's proper operation once again. This el'cheapo CC makes me nervous, but I bot it cause it was too cheap in a package deal with the Renology panel that was purchased, and I'm a tight budget. A friend recently gave me a spare PWM30CC as he had up graded to the newer 30 amp LCD model. I would have a back up if using this charge controller and keep an eye on it, yet simply having a back up is not sufficient of a measure. I am concerned that it's bulk charging phase may prove to be inadequate during the greatly reduce insolation during the winter. Because I do not know all the specs on it, I'm using the best test available by monitoring the specific gravity of the batteries at the end of the day. If the batteries are only charged to 80 or 90%, then they will have a much shorter life span. One should also be aware that the 30 amp rating on this unit is misleading. Read the PDF manual and you'll find that it warns not exceed 80% of it's rating, or 360 watts, that is the specified maximum. If it was truly a 30 amp CC, then one could safely connect 450 watts.

Because the batteries are the weak link and heart of the system, I believe it is best not to skimp on a charge controller. The best value in charge controller that I am aware of is the Morningstar Sun Saver Duo, a 25 amp PWM for $81.80 at Eco Direct :

http://www.ecodirect.com/MorningSta...Amp-12-Volt-p/morningstar-sunsaver-duo-25.htm

This can charge two sets of batteries in a 90%/10% or 50%/50% ratio, and the voltage parameters can be set. If placed near the batteries, a remote temperature sensor is not needed, but if one wishes, a remote sensor and remote meter can be attached. It is essential in that the CC knows when to up the voltage (when it get cold outside), so that the batteries are properly charged. If one just can't afford the Morningstar, or other high quality CC, then I would suggest the newer Renology 30amp LCD with the remote temperature sensor sold separately, or better yet, any American made unit. Voltage parameters can also be set by the user with this one. Batteries are expensive and will become increasingly so, especially now that all the lead smelters in this country have been shut down, and lead will have to be imported. I believe that shorter battery life will be the experience of many who use the el'cheapo Renelogy 10 or 30 amp charge controller, model #PWM10CC and #PWM30CC.

 

[RogueRV2]

This is the link to the 30 amp LCD Renology charge controller, price, about $63 without the sensor:

https://www.renogy-store.com/30-amp-charge-controller-LCD-display-p/ctrl-pwm30-lcd.htm

Unfortunately I do not see the remote temperature sensor that makes this one complete, therefore, I must withdraw my recommendation. One may call the company and find it that way, yet in the example of the Morningstar Sun Saver Duo, 25 amp, the sensor is built-in and the charge controller is encapsulated in epoxy and is weather tight, therefore it can be located near the batteries. Nothing more to buy, $81 bucks will do it. Given the $81 dollar price, it is no more expensive to buy this high quality CC with a 5 year warrantee, than it would be for the Renelogy LCD CC. It, BTW, although rated at 30 AMPS, is only good for 20 amps. The labeling is misleading....are there more surprises?

I just confirmed that my el'cheapo Renology 30 amp charge controller, the Model PWM30CC, is in fact charging my batteries to capacity by using a temperature compensated specific gravity 'battery tester', NAPA part #700-145. As winter sets in I'll be verifying it's proper operation once again. This el'cheapo CC makes me nervous, but I bot it cause it was too cheap in a package deal with the Renology panel that was purchased, and I'm a tight budget. A friend recently gave me a spare PWM30CC as he had up graded to the newer 30 amp LCD model. I would have a back up if using this charge controller and keep an eye on it, yet simply having a back up is not sufficient of a measure. I am concerned that it's bulk charging phase may prove to be inadequate during the greatly reduce insolation during the winter. Because I do not know all the specs on it, I'm using the best test available by monitoring the specific gravity of the batteries at the end of the day. If the batteries are only charged to 80 or 90%, then they will have a much shorter life span. One should also be aware that the 30 amp rating on this unit is misleading. Read the PDF manual and you'll find that it warns not exceed 80% of it's rating, or 360 watts, that is the specified maximum. If it was truly a 30 amp CC, then one could safely connect 450 watts.

Because the batteries are the weak link and heart of the system, I believe it is best not to skimp on a charge controller. The best value in charge controller that I am aware of is the Morningstar Sun Saver Duo, a 25 amp PWM for $81.80 at Eco Direct :

http://www.ecodirect.com/MorningSta...Amp-12-Volt-p/morningstar-sunsaver-duo-25.htm

This can charge two sets of batteries in a 90%/10% or 50%/50% ratio, and the voltage parameters can be set. If placed near the batteries, a remote temperature sensor is not needed, but if one wishes, a remote sensor and remote meter can be attached. It is essential in that the CC knows when to up the voltage (when it get cold outside), so that the batteries are properly charged. If one just can't afford the Morningstar, or other high quality CC, then I would suggest the newer Renology 30amp LCD with the remote temperature sensor sold separately, or better yet, any American made unit. Voltage parameters can also be set by the user with this one. Batteries are expensive and will become increasingly so, especially now that all the lead smelters in this country have been shut down, and lead will have to be imported. I believe that shorter battery life will be the experience of many who use the el'cheapo Renelogy 10 or 30 amp charge controller, model #PWM10CC and #PWM30CC.

 

[anm]

...
This can charge two sets of batteries in a 90%/10% or 50%/50% ratio, and the voltage parameters can be set. If placed near the batteries, a remote temperature sensor is not needed, but if one wishes, a remote sensor and remote meter can be attached. It is essential in that the CC knows when to up the voltage (when it get cold outside), so that the batteries are properly charged. If one just can't afford the Morningstar, or other high quality CC, then I would suggest the newer Renology 30amp LCD with the remote temperature sensor sold separately, or better yet, any American made unit. Voltage parameters can also be set by the user with this one. Batteries are expensive and will become increasingly so, especially now that all the lead smelters in this country have been shut down, and lead will have to be imported. I believe that shorter battery life will be the experience of many who use the el'cheapo Renelogy 10 or 30 amp charge controller, model #PWM10CC and #PWM30CC.

That is interesting, I looked ay their website and it states the following:

"Features
Two Battery Charging
Solar charge current is shared between the two batteries based on a user selectable priority. When one battery is fully charged, all of the charge current flows to the other battery."

It could be set up to fully charge the house battery, and then do the starting battery. I followed the link given by RogueRV2 and see where the type of battery can be changed from sealed to flooded, but I don't see mention of any other setting of the charging parameters. If it could do that for each battery, it would be almost perfect. I note that if you add up the components, charge controller, display, and remote sensor, it's going to cost about $180, more than I'd like to spend... but it does seem to have the features.

I think SternWake mentioned leaving the house batteries connect to the charge controller since they can't charge up to 100% anyway, this MorningStar controller would subvert that...

---

Note:
Looking at the MorningStar SunSaver Duo manual it implies that some parameters can be set from a PC via an optional MorningStar serial to Meterbus adapter though they're not clear as to exactly what.

 

[anm]

Re the MorningStar SunSaver Duo:
The manual says to NOT mount it in the battery box with flooded batteries due to risk of explosion (igniting the gases produced by the batteries)...

 

[RogueRV2]

Yes, as you did, one needs to read operator's manual, or the 'fine print' to better appreciate what they are considering. If the Batts are the 'flooded' type, and typically mount outside, one can avoid the extra cost of a remote battery temperature sensor by mounting the Sun Saver Duo outside as well, but of course, not where hydrogen gasses from the batteries might accumulate. Only if there is a difference in temperature between the charge controller sensor and the ambient temperature in the area of the batteries of -5/+5 C (centigrade), is there a need for the charge controller to compensate. Personally, I can do without a remote desplay, yet others might benefit from the information. I'll use a volt meter hardwired in to spot check, and then from time to time use a temperature compensated hydrometer to verify that the batteries are being charged properly. Relying on a voltage reading is as about as accurate as reading a gas gauge. The method is only an approximation.

Re the MorningStar SunSaver Duo:
The manual says to NOT mount it in the battery box with flooded batteries due to risk of explosion (igniting the gases produced by the batteries)...

 

[RogueRV2]

I dug a little deeper into the Sun Saver Duo and found many of it's parameters including the percentages that each batter bank receives, can be change using a PC and a common cable that can be purchased at a computer store. This means I can add to my battery bank newer batteries in a separate bank, or run a line to the starting battery. Percentage can set in a greater ration than 90/10%, perhaps as low as 99%/1%?

I can do without a meter and it has a built in temperature sensor. If the batteries are outside, then mount the controller outside, or if the batteries are inside, then mount the controller inside. And if that is not possible, then spend the money to get the remote sensor. I'm gonna get this one soon. Without a temperature sensor my batteries will not be fully charged come winter time.

Go directly to the Morningstar site to find the details on this one. There are probably comparable CC's out there. As it is, it appears to be ideal for my needs and tight budget. Estimated service life is 15 years.

A FAQ found in the "tech" page from the Morningstar site:

- Where can I find an RS-232 cable?
RS-232 serial cables can be found at just about any computer retail store. In most cases, such as mating the TriStar or SunSaver Duo to a PC, you will require a cable with one male and one female connection. Linking a PC with the controller will require a straight-through serial cable (NOT a NULL Modem cable).

Programing software for the CC:


MSView contains a built-in Help File (accessible from the Help menu -> Help Topics) which provides detailed information about using the software to connect to Morningstar devices, program custom settings, view and/or log real-time data, and evaluate system performance.



----------------------------------------------------------------

That is interesting, I looked ay their website and it states the following:
It could be set up to fully charge the house battery, and then do the starting battery. I followed the link given by RogueRV2 and see where the type of battery can be changed from sealed to flooded, but I don't see mention of any other setting of the charging parameters. If it could do that for each battery, it would be almost perfect. I note that if you add up the components, charge controller, display, and remote sensor, it's going to cost about $180, more than I'd like to spend... but it does seem to have the features.

I think SternWake mentioned leaving the house batteries connect to the charge controller since they can't charge up to 100% anyway, this MorningStar controller would subvert that...

---

Note:
Looking at the MorningStar SunSaver Duo manual it implies that some parameters can be set from a PC via an optional MorningStar serial to Meterbus adapter though they're not clear as to exactly what.

---

---

"... but I don't see mention of any other setting of the charging parameters".


Sorry. I missed this question. One does not need to use a PC to change the ratio that each battery bank is charged. There are dip switches that offer 90/10% or 50/50%. From my read, a PC can be used to effect the same changes and perhaps be refined to an individual's needs. And the software does so much more as well. For $81 bucks at Eco Direct, it is killer deal for me.

I dug a little deeper into the Sun Saver Duo and found many of it's parameters including the percentages that each batter bank receives, can be change using a PC and a common cable that can be purchased at a computer store. This means I can add to my battery bank newer batteries in a separate bank, or run a line to the starting battery. Percentage can set in a greater ration than 90/10%, perhaps as low as 99%/1%?

I can do without a meter and it has a built in temperature sensor. If the batteries are outside, then mount the controller outside, or if the batteries are inside, then mount the controller inside. And if that is not possible, then spend the money to get the remote sensor. I'm gonna get this one soon. Without a temperature sensor my batteries will not be fully charged come winter time.

Go directly to the Morningstar site to find the details on this one. There are probably comparable CC's out there. As it is, it appears to be ideal for my needs and tight budget. Estimated service life is 15 years.

A FAQ found in the "tech" page from the Morningstar site:

- Where can I find an RS-232 cable?
RS-232 serial cables can be found at just about any computer retail store. In most cases, such as mating the TriStar or SunSaver Duo to a PC, you will require a cable with one male and one female connection. Linking a PC with the controller will require a straight-through serial cable (NOT a NULL Modem cable).

Programing software for the CC:


MSView contains a built-in Help File (accessible from the Help menu -> Help Topics) which provides detailed information about using the software to connect to Morningstar devices, program custom settings, view and/or log real-time data, and evaluate system performance.



----------------------------------------------------------------

 

[05kas05]

ahhhh!!!
well i have been looking and searching the inter webs and now that i have done more thinking and researching
I'm lost again and can't make up my mind haha!!!!!

ok with that said when i started this project i was dead set on having solar mounted to the van's roof but the more i think about my situation and my routine i just don't know if it makes sense. for one i am not a full timer and I'm only going on weekend trips as of now with 1 or 2 week long trips thrown in-between so the solar power going to the batteries the rest of the time when I'm at work or the house or the when the van is parked would not be getting used at all. i am thinking it makes more sense to go with something i can run when needed and store away when its not. i mean if i have 250 watts of solar panels on my van or say even 100 watt renogy kit what happens/what do i need to do if i am not using my van ? i was thinking instead of a permanent mounted panel
maybe i should go with a generator or a suitcase style solar set up this way i could just recharge when needed or store away when its not.
any suggestions on the solar setups like that i saw several different suitcase setups on amazon which varied greatly in price but the specs looked similar. right now I'm charging of my alternator only and i have been fine so far but i want to add a truck fridge
its a portable 12 volt fridge model tf-51 which is why i want to add another charging method to help keep up the batteries when I'm using it, it has a danfoss compressor which some say is good but i can't find much more info/specs on it.

as far as the generator goes i have been looking at the Hondas and Yamaha's are there any others i should look at or are these pretty much the ones to get.they are definitely nice and i will be adding one at a later date no matter which way i go on the solar set up.

 

[RogueRV2]

A nice and quiet Honda or Yamaha generator is expensive, unless you can wait for a old Honda EM400, EM500, or EM650 to show up on Craig's List for $200 to $300, or so. I'm happy with mine. Solar has dropped in price dramatically so the paradigm has changed. And the nice thing about solar panels is that they last for decades and only the batteries have to changed out every 4 to 6 years if one uses a true deep cycle such as 6 volt golf cart batteries.

Look at the Renology solar panels, but get their upgraded charge controller with the temperature sensor and meter with display, or another charge controller with a temperature sensor such as the high quality Morningstar Sun Saver Duo. Good batteries cheap can be found at Costco or Sam's Club. Mine were $89.00 ea x 2. Core charge was $9 x 2. Trojans T-105's are probably better, but cost around $150 each. Counting only the big parts, a 200 watt system with 2 Costco golf cart batteries, would run about $600. This estimate does not include mounting hardware, or wiring etc... Use 8 AWG and you'll not have to worry if you've used large enough wire regardless of how long your run is to the batteries inside a van, or up to 30 feet. If you don't wish to mount it on the roof, then use aluminum tubing from a hardware store to fabricate a collapsible stand for the panel(s). You'll save a bit of money that way. Personally I'd prefer it on the roof. It would be safer up top. Folks who have much experience with their systems find that 200 watts seems to be the minimum amount of power that is necessary to run a fridge and the usual devices.

 

[05kas05]

rogueRV2 thanks for the reply, i already have 2 gam batteries that are currently charged by my alternator and as of now it is working fine. akrvbob has already helped me line out a potential roof mounted solar system which if i go that route is what i will end up getting.

again like i said I'm not a full timer so i am concerned that a roof top system where it is constantly providing power to the batteries even though I'm not using them or the van might not be a good idea since I'm not there to monitor it.
which is why i was thinking a portable solar set up or a generator would be better. i could set it up and only use it when needed to top of the batteries. plus it would allow me to park in the shade and have my solar in the sun. i live in austin texas and am here year around at this point so moving to a cooler location is not possible for me at this time. i am budgeting my money either way i just want to find what setup would be better for my situation at the present time. if i go portable i could always add a generator later or if i go roof mounted solar i could add a generator later. l see some people have one or both and some have all three .

 

[RogueRV2]

05kas05,

Only you know how much power you'll consume. If you are moving every few days and the alternator can help, perhaps only one 100 watt panel will do it. About 50 AH is watt folks will use per day, but if you're out there only a week or two at a time and can charge with the vehicle's alternator, and use ice instead of a frig, this would reduce the amount of power you'll need and the cost. I'd favor solar, especially in Texas. The charge controller will regulate and protect the batteries just fine and for years. No worries there. You could start with a 100 watt panel and charge controller (temperature compensated type with the LCD meter read out) from Renology, and set it up on stand that will not blow over. This would run less than $200. Find an piece of old 14 awg extension cord and cut off about 15 feet to run between the panel and charge controller, or better yet, find 12 awg that can run 25 feet without too much of a drop in voltage. Use the other part of the cord for the rest of the wiring from the charge controller to the batteries. Wiring I've pulled out of the dumpster has ended up in my solar system.