looking at adding a solar panel

[05kas05]

i was on amazon looking at some of the kits they have and am wondering if this kit will be a good place to start? i would like to add a second panel to this later to run a fridge but that will be down the road.


http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100W-M...ie=UTF8&qid=1410017301&sr=8-6&keywords=renogy

 

[riffraff]

The panel is the same type I am about to install and have heard good things about it. I can't say much about the controller bundled with this kit except that it's PWM and not MPPT. True MPPT controllers can be 20-30% more efficient depending on your setup but tend to cost more. This is my understanding.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The 30 amp controller should be able to handle two of these panels with no problem.

The 12 gauge awg cable they include are a little on the thin side, and will limit the charging voltage available to your battery. It will literally choke off some of the power the panel is capable of producing.

Do a search on Amazon for MC4 cables, and you will see that most of the ones they sell are 10 gauge awg. I would buy one of them and throw the 12 gauge wire in the trash.

When you go to two panels, plan on putting a combiner box on your roof. The shortest possible 10 gauge wires from the panels to the box, and 8 or even 6 gauge wires out to the controller.

A set up like that will allow the maximum amount of power these panels can produce to reach your battery, instead of wasting a good chunk of it in resistance losses.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The panel is the same type I am about to install and have heard good things about it. I can't say much about the controller bundled with this kit except that it's PWM and not MPPT. True MPPT controllers can be 20-30% more efficient depending on your setup but tend to cost more. This is my understanding.

Some solar experts I respect suggest that MPPT is useful on BIG systems - say 600 watts and up, but a waste of money on small systems.

Regards
John

 

[riffraff]

Some solar experts I respect suggest that MPPT is useful on BIG systems - say 600 watts and up, but a waste of money on small systems.

Yeah I can see that being the case. I'm still learning! Probably a good place to save money when setting up a smaller system.

 

[akrvbob]

I have three complete systems, the largest is 240 watts the others are 190 and 140. They all have MPPT controllers.

Whenever you see a real big difference in price, most of that is not PWM versus MPPT, it is the quality and reputation of the maker of the controller. In other words, a Blue Sky, Morningstar or Midnight controller is a lot more expensive than a Renology because of the company, and the fact it is made in the USA and not so much the technology.

In 10 years when you need help they will answer the phone and take care of you. We don't know yet about Renology. Did anyone here ever hear of Renology before a year or two ago?

With solar panels, that isn't too big a deal and probably worth the risk. Although I will still buy a Kyocera--Made in the USA and a better panel for very little more money!

But in my opinion with controllers it is worth the extra expense.

We all give lip-service to made in America, but will you pay more for it, even if you can be almost certain it is a better product?

Bob

 

[05kas05]

i'll admit i have not done much research in this area but am looking into it more now that i want to get a fridge so i guess lets start over from scratch. you recommended a Kyocera panel any one in particular ? any suggestions as far as the charge controller would be helpful also.is there a dealer you would suggest as far as ordering from.

i was wanting to use two smaller 100 watt panels for ease of install and removal but would it actually be better to get a single 200 watt panel if possible. well i better get to searching and reading T.I.A for the help it is appreciated

 

[akrvbob]

By far the cheapest way into solar is with the Renology 100 watt kit. It's a good solid kit and should work fine. The controller is suspect but it's cheap and when it breaks you can buy another cheap one. Buying multiple cheap ones may cost less in the long run than buying one good one

If you want to buy the best and know it will last a long time, it will cost you more. The solar panel will actually be less per watt, but will require a much more expensive controller.

Everyone has to make up their on mind which strategy is best.
Bob

 

[TucsonAZ]

I would go with this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B11SSVA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_8?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AU5MW0P13QZ5V

The bad reviews seem to be people that don't really get it, all I have seen has it at a very good value. I would match that to a 250w grid tie (24v) panel and call it a day, any panel will do, whatever you can get locally for the lowest cost per watt.

A fridge will require more however, look into a small chest freezer and convert it maybe.

 

[anm]

...
We all give lip-service to made in America, but will you pay more for it, even if you can be almost certain it is a better product?
...

I am on a tight budget, so it depends on what it is and how much it is. If an item is American made, but still competitively priced (they get points for being made in America) then I will buy it over a foreign made item, but if I can buy an excellent charge controller (made in China) which is 1/4 the price of a comparable American made charge controller, then I'm afraid the foreign made one has the nod. Too many US businesses are going overseas leaving less competition among US manufacturers, hence higher prices. This policy is neither good for the average American, or the average foreigner, look at Ciudad Juarez. That sort of policy is not designed with the average American in mind, it is designed with big business in mind, and the sooner people realize that, the better.

How many of you drive foreign-made cars? I see good-ole-boys, the ones who will cram America down your throat, riding around in their big Japanese pickups.

I try to buy American, but it's getting more and more difficult as more and more manufacturers shift operations overseas. Manufacturers don't want to build here, they want to build where it's cheapest. We wind up with multi-national corporations that no longer owe allegiance to any country, and have the morals of an alley cat (no disrespect to alley cats intended).

@Bob: sorry for the tirade, feel free to delete it...

 

[Zil]

Made in USA is not an assurance of quality. There are many home grown manufacturers that fail at quality control.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Unfortunately, there are only two answers to competing with cheap foreign goods.

1: Lower your build quality to try to compete pricewise.

2: Accept that your market is limited to people willing to pay more for high quality.

A made in the USA sticker is no guarantee that they didn't adopt the first policy.

Regards
John

 

[anm]

Made in USA is not an assurance of quality. There are many home grown manufacturers that fail at quality control.

Yes, as is 'made overseas' is also not an assurance of quality...
caveat emptor

 

[akrvbob]

Let's stick with the OP topic which is solar panels and controllers. There are American made controllers that are much lower cost and somewhat lower quality. BZ comes to mind. I've owned two of them. Not a bad controller and they are cheap.

But the ones I listed are premium priced because they are premium quality. They have a proven track record and an outstanding reputation. That's what you are buying with your extra money. Plus they almost always have numerous extra features that really are good but most of us don't care too much about.

Be sure you are comparing apples to apples and not oranges. Do the two controllers you are considering have a digital display, do they both allow you to set the float point, do they both allow for a battery temperature cord? Those things cost extra and only compare controllers with the same feature set.

Who can name a chinese controller that has been around for more than 5 years? Who can name one that has been around for more than 2 years?

With a Chinese controller, you aren't buying a track record or a reputation, because they don't have one--either good or bad. You are simply putting down your money and hoping.

But, they are so cheap, it's not a big loss. If you replace it every couple of years, it might still be cheaper.

Until your no-name controller fries your batteries and panels. Then it may not be cheaper anymore. Will that happen? Probably not. It's much less likely with a quality name-brand American made product.

5 years ago when I bought my first system I had the choice between a Blue Sky 2000, which at the time was considered one of the best small controllers and BZ 150 which was half the price. Money was tight so I bought the BZ. Four years later it broke and I replaced it with a Blue Sky 2000, which is still considered one of the very best small controllers. It has a proven track record of excellence and reliability. Is that worth the extra money? We each have to decide for ourselves!

In between I've known lots and lots of guys with Blue Skies and 100% were happy and all told great stories of reliability but if there was a problem Blue Sky took great care of them.

Right now I have the money so I am more than willing to pay more for their reliability and their reputation because I know beyond any doubt that I'm buying a premium product for a premium price.

Renology is well on their way to establishing that kind of reputation, so for people on a budget, that's what I recommend. I know people with them and they are happy. But, I've been watching solar for the last 5 years and I never heard of them before 1-2 years ago. Is that enough time to establish a real reputation for reliability?

I'm not telling you what to do or which is better (that is different for all of us) I just want you to have the information to make an informed decision.
Bob

 

[05kas05]

ok well i really would like to be middle of the road with my components i can't afford the top of the line but don't want bottom of the barrel either. so i guess my best bet would be to piece my kit together as i get the funds. i want to start with getting the charge controller then the panels after that.not sure if it helps but here are the specs for the batteries and a list of stuff i either am using now or would like to add not sure if we can come up with anything from this info but thought i would throw it out there.
also i would like to note I'm not full time either i only use this for now on the weekends and other times i can get away i do have a 2 week trip planned soon i hope to spend more time in my van in the future but I'm still working on that.

here is the specs for the two carquest ng31dt batteries i have installed. as of now they are being charged by the alternator only
these are made by east penn and are supposed to be rebranded intimidator batteries here is the specs for the deka

Deka 8A31DT (8A31DTM) AGM Battery Specifications:
Nominal Voltage: 12V
Amp Hour Capacity @ 20 hr rate: 105 a/h
Reserve Capacity @ 25 amp discharge rate: 210 mins
BCI Group Size: 31
Marine Cranking Amps @ 32* F: 1,000 amps
Cold Cranking Amps @ 0* F: 800 amps
Weight: 69 lbs
Length: 12 15/16 in.
Width: 6 3/4 in.
Height: 9 3/8 in.
Terminal Type: dual terminals (autopost and stud)

this is the stuff I'm running at this time some more than others but none stays on constantly, the vent/fans the fridge and laptop will be the things that run the most.

fantastic vent mdl#7350
o2 cool 12 volt rechargeable fan
wal mart 12 volt clamp fan
interior lights six are 194 bulbs and the others i call mood lighting are the factory led's mounted in the wood
400 watt wagen psw inverter
cannon camera battery chargers x2
makita 18 volt brushless impact driver and drill battery charger (not sure i can even use these off the 400watt inverter)
SHURflo 4008 water pump
macbook air
and i would like to add a (truck fridge) TF-51 or equivalent refrigerator

 

[05kas05]

well after looking around and searching the web i think i have narrowed it down to getting one of the the kyocera 140 watt panel's to start with
and either the morning star prostar ps 30 or the blue sky 2000e. the prostar will fit my budget better but if it is really a big difference in charging performance i will go with the blue sky.

another question on the panels i think it would be better for me to get a panel without the connecters and get one with just a box to add wires but what type of wire do you use is it just regular 10awg auto wire or is there something else that is better maybe a 2 wire outdoor wire like home depot or lowes sells ? i want to add my own wires because my panel to controller wire will be about 3-4 ft and controller to battery wires will be about the same. I'm trying to keep the wires as short as possible and with as few connection points as possible

is there anything else i need to get along with either of these set ups besides the normal connectors and such?

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

As far as wire goes, I have seen references to using wire that is "highly resistant to uv radiation".

I can see the point of that in residential installations where it is expected to last 20 years or more, and is going to be difficult to inspect or service.

For what you're doing? How hard can it be to replace a four foot wire on top of a vehicle every few years if you notice it deteriorating? Just make sure it's all waterproof in the rain.

Regards
John

 

[akrvbob]

I love Kyocera panels but their small panels are too overpriced for me to recommend. If you buy the big panel they are very close in price and worth it for their higher quality. How much are you paying for that panel? You might can get 2 Renology 100 watts for the same price.

You aren't getting MPPT with that controller and that is a big loss. some come with a monitor and some don't. I would NOT buy a controller without a monitor.

I've become a big fan of MC4 connectors and would always choose one of them if available. they make everything simple and easy. I believe Kyocera makes the 140 with a junction box or with MC4s. Which one are you going to get.

What's your budget for solar and maybe we can help you get the most for your money.
Bob

 

[SternWake]

The BS 2000e claims to be MPPT Bob.

The BS2000 E however is not cappatible with the Ipn Pro Remote battery monitor, so while it does have a display that will show battery voltage and Solar amps, it cannot act as a battery monitor like the IPN pro remote can.

The IPN pro remote also allows changing absorption voltage and duration and float voltages, which allows fine tuning to maximize battery life, and allow a wider range of replacement batteries.

If i Did not have this option, my 160$ USbattery would have kicked the bucket long ago, but with the adjustments upward, is doing tarzan yells and beating its chest like a meth addled gorilla.

Without the IPN Pro remote, default absorption voltage of my SB2512i is 14.2v, way way too low for most flooded batteries not in desert hot climates. i really wish I spent the extra 35$ for the Sb2512ix model which allows the use of a battery temperature sensor. This is my biggest regret concerning solar, not spending that extra 35$.

A can't stress the importance enough of adjustable absorption voltage and float voltages. Each and every battery will be different and their requirements will change as the battery ages. A one size fits all un adjustable charging algorithm is a recipe for premature battery failure if the main recharging source is to always be solar. Even with some morning alternator contribution, time at absorption voltage is needed. and the correct absorption voltage for the battery is just as important.

Any solar is better than no solar, but the solar which can most closely meet the battery manufacturer specs and daily replace ovvernight usage + 5 to 50% more, is how to get the most performance and battery longevity and a worry free system.

Those who do not have enough solar or an adjustable solar controller and the desire to fine tune voltage setpoints, will complain about it at some point when the batteries "no longer take a charge"

Increase your solar budget for the initial purchase, or spend more, and possible considerably more later, when you replace batteries early and upgrade to a more adjustable system with power to spare. You want power to spare you want to get it right the first time. Not find out that it is not enough and inadequate and find an upgrade will cost more than you initially spent when trying to be frugal.

I have a Kyocera 130 watt panel with a junction box. Had it since 2007. Cost $740 delivered. I can recommend them.

 

[05kas05]

i would like to keep the cost as low as possible of course but i want to do this once and be done right now i have about 700.00 that i can put toward a solar set up. i have 2 batteries now that are being charged off the alternator and i would like to add solar to help with that.

another note to mention is I'm not a full timer as of yet so i am not sure how that plays into a solar set up what if i don't use any power and my van is sitting there for a week? do you disconnect it or just keep something running like a fridge? I'm looking to add a truck fridge td-51 or equivalent and eventually go full time which is why I'm trying to plan ahead.

here is my battery specs and a list of stuff i am either using or plan to use if it helps


Deka 8A31DT (8A31DTM) AGM Battery Specifications:
Nominal Voltage: 12V
Amp Hour Capacity @ 20 hr rate: 105 a/h
Reserve Capacity @ 25 amp discharge rate: 210 mins
BCI Group Size: 31
Marine Cranking Amps @ 32* F: 1,000 amps
Cold Cranking Amps @ 0* F: 800 amps
Weight: 69 lbs
Length: 12 15/16 in.
Width: 6 3/4 in.
Height: 9 3/8 in.
Terminal Type: dual terminals (autopost and stud)

this is the stuff I'm running at this time some more than others but none stays on constantly, the vent/fans the fridge and laptop will be the things that run the most.

fantastic vent mdl#7350
o2 cool 12 volt rechargeable fan
wal mart 12 volt clamp fan
interior lights six are 194 bulbs and the others i call mood lighting are the factory led's mounted in the wood
400 watt wagen psw inverter
cannon camera battery chargers x2
makita 18 volt brushless impact driver and drill battery charger (not sure i can even use these off the 400watt inverter)
SHURflo 4008 water pump
macbook air
and i would like to add a (truck fridge) TF-51 or equivalent refrigerator