Lifepo4 batteries

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VanKitten

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A couple of years ago I thought that lithium batteries were the right answer.
But, then, after discussions I concluded that maybe AGM deep cycle batteries were the right choice.

Now, in these last few weeks I have come to realize that over the course of the next 3 years I will likely kill off lead batteries 2-3 times...meaning, probably have to replace every year.

I come to this conclusion because I will not have the following...routine access to shore power, generator.

The lack of generator is due to the lack of space to store one.  No place for gasoline can.  There is very limited "basement" space ...just an underneath drawer 12" x 24" by 8" high.   I plan that for tools I must have.

So.. charging the batteries to 100% will not be happening.  Even though I will have 700W of solar panels...the manner in which lead batteries are charged will ensure that I cannot store the max those panel can deliver.

So, now I am back to lifepo4      

Anyone install them in your RV?  How does your BMS talk to the MPPT?   Does the BMS direct the MPPT to deliver charge at 3.5 V?  And shut off when it drops to 0amps?  Is there an intergrated system?     I spoke with Outback...they simply say that there must be a separate BMS.  Ok..not an intergrated function in any of their products.    How do others handle the "handshake" between MPPT and BMS?    I do not possess the savvy to design/build one myself....I am hoping that the technology has an "off the shelf" device already, although in my research I have not yet found one.
 
I would go FLA GC2 from Sams or +, see if you can make them last over two years.

700 is decent, sure you can't stay within that?

Or check out Firefly Oasis, $500 per 100AH.
 
RoamingKat said:
So, now I am back to lifepo4      

Anyone install them in your RV?  How does your BMS talk to the MPPT?   Does the BMS direct the MPPT to deliver charge at 3.5 V?  And shut off when it drops to 0amps?  Is there an intergrated system?     I spoke with Outback...they simply say that there must be a separate BMS.  Ok..not an intergrated function in any of their products.    How do others handle the "handshake" between MPPT and BMS?    I do not possess the savvy to design/build one myself....I am hoping that the technology has an "off the shelf" device already, although in my research I have not yet found one.

I bought my LiFePo4 battery from Bioenno with power management and battery management circuits inside. I also bought the MPPT charge controller from them.

It all plays very well as the power management system stops accepting more current when fully charged. If load is attached to the battery the battery management will not initiate as it takes about 20 - 30 minutes, but if you tie your load to the output of the charge controller the BMS will kick in.

Here is one of my posts on my migration to LiFePo4.

http://macaloney.blogspot.com/2016/10/my-compressor-fridge-review-engel-model.html?m=1

Brent
 
RoamingKat said:
 . . .
So.. charging the batteries to 100% will not be happening.  Even though I will have 700W of solar panels...the manner in which lead batteries are charged will ensure that I cannot store the max those panel can deliver.

So if I am understanding this correctly, your solar panels are generating more power than you can store but you can't get your batteries to 100%?  Am I missing something?  How will LiFePO4 change that?

 -- Spiff
 
RoamingKat said:
So.. charging the batteries to 100% will not be happening.  Even though I will have 700W of solar panels...the manner in which lead batteries are charged will ensure that I cannot store the max those panel can deliver.

This doesn't make any sense. Hundreds, if not thousands of people are running solar panels and getting their AGM batteries to a 100% almost every day. 

I don't get why yours would be different unless you have more batteries than 700W can charge (and that would be a lot of batteries).
 
Well..here is what I was told. That it would take more time than 8 hours of sun to charge with just the panels.

The batteries will not last if they are not charged 100% a couple times a week .. at least.
What people here say is....run you generator for a couple hours in the morning...then the panels will have enough time to finish off the last stage of charging. Like all afternoon.

So..if I draw them down to 50% I need 250ah. Then...No generator. So..I would count on panels for bulk and absorption....then...ah...then float (trickle). Batteries are not taki what the panels deliver....not enough time to finish the job during the day...then drain again over night....not very long before failure to have enough time to trickle charge (float) means I am slowly killing the batteries....and I am discharging on a battery that did not get fully restored...so soon I am discharging below 50%

Lifepo4 will handle not being fully charged...no problem. They handle discharge even down to 20%. So I need less battery.
And..they take everything the panels can deliver. The big issue with them seems to be having a controller that knows to maintain constant current to only about 60%, then charge 3.55V ...charge current at that voltage so the current then to taper off to only what the battery will accept in the last stage.. from what I am reading... both stages of lifepo4 would take about 5 hours total from panels in the sun.
 
Spaceman Spiff said:
So if I am understanding this correctly, your solar panels are generating more power than you can store but you can't get your batteries to 100%?  Am I missing something?  How will LiFePO4 change that?

 -- Spiff

My understanding is the batteries cannot take a constant charge from the panels....they need hours of just a slow trickle in float stage....and there isn't hours available unless you use a generator to ploughing fast thru Bulk -absorption
 
OBerneldon.....

I didn't see your posts on lifepo4. Just the engle fridge. I didn't see a search bar...so could not find the battery info you talk about...Can you give me a link to the post?
 
I think you need to do some more research. The batteries will charge from the panels at full charge until about 80-90% then trickle charge until 100% and then float charge. Many people see full charge within 4-5 hours of good day light with the right battery to panel ratio, which is possible almost any time of year depending on where you are of course. How would those who rely on nothing but solar manage this also with AGM batteries....there are so many of them out there.

You also realize how expensive Li batteries are right? A LifePo4 battery rated for 200ah is $1500.
 
The size of the bank needs to be large enough that you don't need to drop them below 50%- or at least rarely and not by much.

And that is just to make them last a long life, for the price of LFP you can buy five sets over ten years of FLA even abusing them, as most vanners do.

And with as dense/efficient solar possible, just keep your usage lower than what the solar produces.

If your battery SoC monitoring shows you "can't" do that, then your choices are refit your alt, buy a little gennie, or just replace the bank when needed.

Gennies can be just a couple hundred, LFP will be thousands,

Even Firefly as LFP substitute for PSOC use will be cheaper.
 
You should do more research on charging batteries. There are charts and formulas where you can see the exact numbers for how different battery types charge. If I recall correctly, the most simplistic way to look at it for lead-acid batteries (AGM Included) is like this:

For a battery that is discharged pretty far (like to 75% or less)

Charging time = (What it would take if battery could take 100% of power from panels) + (2.5 hours)

(If you don't know how to calculate the part in the first parentheses, learn how.)

For a battery that's discharged less than 75%, or so, that formula probably slightly overestimates the time needed, with the most overestimation obviously happening the closer it was to 100% to start

I have 400watts and a 200 amp-hour AGM that I've been using for a year. I minimize electrical use after sundown (only the fridge, wifi device, lights, and fan while cooking --- no charging of laptop or anything else like that), and my battery will be at 90-97% when the sun comes up. I usually have enough excess power from my panels that I can plug in my computer or whatever else after only a couple hours. (basically just by the time the sun gets high enough in the sky to provide the 2-4 amps the battery can take plus whatever I want to use/charge) My battery is pretty much at fully charged from like 10am-8pm every single day.
 
How about in the morning before the solar panels are at their peak, charge the batteries bulk with the vehicles alternator. If it gets hot in the summer, do the charging at noon, that way you can also use the vehicles air conditioner.

Battery technology has been advancing and Lithium batteries are getting cheaper. It might be cheaper to replace the batteries with lead acid the next go around and let the cost of lithium come down. As more cars use them, the supply of batteries should increase lowering the cost. You might be able to buy a used or rebuilt Prius battery on the cheap.

Another thought is to not use the more finiky AGM's and go with Golf Cart. Checking the water level once a month is not that big a deal.
 
This is a quote from a recent thread in had on battery capacity...this was from Sternwake....

"Really hard working batteries can often require 12+ hours at ABSV before specific gravity gets back up into the green, so giving them a break by plugging in and letting a grid powered charging source give them a good long massage can usually reset them to an earlier younger age. Hard worked batteries that do not get the 100% recharge are getting ready to jump off of a cliff, but they start running downhill before jumping."

I do not see how there will be 12+ hours when I won't have a generator...and not hooking up to shore power (the dreaded RV park)


So... you see, the answer seems to be pay an RV park a couple times a week...or burn fossil fuel. Or, get batteries that will do the off grid work I want. So I did the math...if I buy new AGM batteries every 18 months (which is probably a stretch) .. at 4 years..I will be looking at paying for the third set...and paying more than I would have for lifepo4.

But...the topic is BMS and the MPPT formthis set up.
 
I believe Sternwake was referring to something you would do for damaged batteries (batteries that have a lot of crystalization). A conditioning charge, or a high amp charge is only something you'd do if your battery specifically needs it -- which should be rarely.

NOT every day!

Again, as I mentioned in the post above, I think it would be beneficial to learn the actual charging math. When Sternwake wrote "to reset them to an earlier age" - he meant to get them less crystalized, so they'll take a charge more like they normally should be able to - like what is described by the formula I posed above
 
RoamingKat said:
OBerneldon.....

I didn't see your posts on lifepo4. Just the engle fridge. I didn't see a search bar...so could not find the battery info you talk about...Can you give me a link to the post?

RoamingKat,

That blog post was for my testing of the LiFePo4 battery using the Engel fridge.

Here is my decision on using LiFePo4.

http://macaloney.blogspot.com/2017/01/why-you-want-lifepo4-house-battery-for.html?m=1

My main blog page is www.macaloney.blogspot.com

Brent
 
RoamingKat said:
I do not see how there will be 12+ hours when I won't have a generator...and not hooking up to shore power (the dreaded RV park)
Even murderous abuse on proper deep cycle - forget AGM, GC2s way to go - very likely you will figure out how to make them last at least a couple years.

Just follow the guidelines for proper best you can

If you decide to invest more in a fossil fuel source to make them last longer, then spend the bigger bucks on AGM.

Or maybe even Firefly and don't need the FF.

A huge investment in DIY LFP at this stage of your learning curve is very risky. If you want to find out about a safer bespoke proprietary system, get quotes from yacht gear dealers like Bruce Schwab at Ocean Planet.
 
Lifepo4 can be killed too, and is much more expensive to replace.

Float charging is a Bull **** stage that has confused you. Float is for when batteries are fully charged, to keep them fully chrged. NO actual charging should be occurring during float. If more than 0.4 amps of current are flowing for each 100Ah of battery capacity at float voltage, then the absorption stage was not long enough and blame the charging source for prematurely reverting to float voltage, and apologize to the battery.

'Trickle charging' is a term right wing battery idiots use as it sounds good to their ear, as grandpa used to say it frequently, but grandpa knew nothing about battery charging either.

In full time RV dwelling with a heavy electrical user, there are two battery charging stages, Bulk and absorption. Only those with excess solar and minimal battery consumption will ever need the float voltage stage.

Say a golf cart battery is rated at 1200 cycles. This means that if they actually tested them, it would discharged exactly to 50%, and recharged over 8 to 12 hours to truly full, then cycled to 50% again. They estimate the battery will be able to do this 1200 times before its capacity is reduced to 80% of that when it was new. These are lab cycles. NO ONE, in actual use, achieves lab cycle numbers, not at 50% depth of discharge. no way.

Batteries die, your estimation of having to replace them 2 to 3 times in 2 years is extremely premature, and perhaps wildly incorrect. Even if true, replacing flooded golf cart batteries 2 to 3 times in 2 years, will still be substantially cheaper than setting up a proper functioning Lifepo4 system now.

Unless you have ventilation issues, do not get AGM for this task as they are more needy of the 100% recharges, and achieving those at higher amperage rates than flooded golf cart batteries. people tend to put the Superbattery status onto AGM because of the price, but they are more finicky when not treated to a full charge more regularly than their flooded deep cycle counterparts. Flooded golf cart batteries are the most forgiving, best bang for the buck battery available.

With hard working lead acid batteries, sometimes one just needs to lay off the electrical usage one day before a known sunny day occurs, and get to and achieve absorption voltage ASAP the next morning, and hold it all day long, perhaps bump up the solar controller settings to 16.2V after 4 hours at absorption.

Will this be enough to maximize specific gravity on all cells? perhaps, perhaps Not, but the attempt will be much appreciated by the batteries.

Perfect recharging is nearly impossible to achieve, outside of a laboratory. Inability of the user to achieve the occassional perfect recharge, is standard. That you know that the batteries will not be happy being worked as hard as you intend on working them, puts you way ahead of most with an RV.

I just replaced 2 of my neighbors 100$ wally world group 27 marine batteries with 2 84$ golf cart batteries(210AH) from Costco. These are interstate branded batteries, and at this moment in time, in this location( S california) are apparently made by Trojan, and correlate to the Trojan T-605, which is a few steps below the venerable t-105.

The trojan T-605 weighs 58Lbs, the t-105 weighs 62Lbs, the t105RE weighs 67Lbs. Heavier mo bettah.

Costco is wonderful about warrantying batteries, even those killed by intentional or unintentional abuse.

Get 4 or 6 of these and see how long you can make them last in your usage. You might be surprised at how long they can handle your abuse, and you might be able to get a new set under warranty.

My neighbors rig's batteries last about 2 years, as he simply does not care about the batteries. Runs them dead as a doornnail when not plugged in, thinks a short drive is more than enough to fully charge them, and does not bother pluggin in the rig when at home. And does not listen, as he does not care.

I do not expect these golf carts to last any longer in his usage, but they were at least 16$ less per battery, and with Costco, he can likely kill them and warranty them for the price of a trip to costco.

No doubt Lifepo4 is a superior battery, but they have all sorts of parameters they must remain within, and can be killed quickly, if allowed outside those parameters. Lead acid is much cheaper and more forgiving of the time they spend outside their parameters.

The 12 hour absorption stage of a hard worked lead acid battery you quoted, is an extreme example with a very hard worked battery well past the half way mark in its lifespan, that should not be used as a reason to disregard lead acid all together.

People who really work the piss out of their batteries, and see their solar controller in float by midafternoon, should raise float voltage to the same as absorption voltage.

It is the premature reversion to a low 13.2 to 13.6v float voltage which is the main lead acid battery killer.

Enough solar to get there and hold it there makes for pretty happy batteries.

When more is needed than 760 watts, consider a portable panel to bust out and aim at the sun a few times per day. The earlier one can achieve absorption voltage, the happier the battery. An Unhappy battery bank should be given a light overnight load before a known sunny day, and allowed to achieve Absorption voltage ASAP, by whatever methods available.

When mine is due, Since I can plug in, or drive to get 65+ amps into my well depleted battery, I actually intentionally drain my AGM even deeper, and apply high amperage before my solar has had the chance to do the low and slow thing. 30 to 60 minutes of high amperage in the early morning from its most depleted state, and 200 watts of solar all day long holding absorption voltage, makes my battery have an orgasm.
This AGM however has no upper limit on charging amps, well no amperage I can achieve anyway.

A rig with 4 or 6 hard worked gasping GC-2 batteries, I would start the engine and drive for an hour or 2 near sunrise, with a thick copper circuit between alternator and house battery, then the solar should have no problem holding Absorption voltage as long as required, and should be able to reset capacity to the maximum remaining potential. This need not be done several times a week. Once every 10 days to 2 weeks will significantly extend the lifespan of the batteries.

But factor in the cost of gas for driving for 1 to 2 hours, if not having to go anywhere otherwise. Could be cheaper to simple replace batteries more often.
 
Sternwake...so much useful information. Thank you. Helps me understand my charging system a little better.
 

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