Lacto-Fermenting anyone???

[Diesel4Life]

blEEp,

Pasteurization can and does occur at various temperatures for different life forms and species. Some actually thrive at higher temperatures, there are numerous examples of heat and cold resistant bacteria. In the meat industry they are focused on destroying dangerous pathogens and bacteria, and in Mycology their focused on harmful bacteria, nematodes, insects indigenous to the fungi etc. In fermenting we are focused on encouraging procreation. So increases above 75 degree's is to be avoided, and then never above 118 degree's  once you have a well establish colony. But I see no positive purpose to ever raise the temperature to those levels. I prefer room temperature or refrigeration for long term.

 

[towhee]

Diesel, I am more worried about the high temperatures than the low temps. Looks like I need to experiment. Experimentation is the aspect of fermentation that I love. Every batch is different.

 

[Diesel4Life]

towhee,

Yes I completely agree with your reasoning, as you know once your colony is well established their fairly resistant and tolerant. But I myself as I've mentioned see no reason to ever expose them to "excessive heat." That is just plain counter intuitive to me, cooler temperatures though are a simple and effective way to slow their activity down a bit. It's always great fun talking with fellow fermenter's like yourself to.






Fermenter's eye candy LoL.

 

[Diesel4Life]

gsfish,

Perhaps your referring to "lactose intolerant"? "Lacto" is simple referring to the species Lactobacillus and the several other strains that are generally present as well. Lactobacillus is naturally present on cabbage, during the fermentation process of making sauerkraut these bacteria utilize the natural occurring sugars in the cabbage as a food source. Converting it into Lactic acid which serves several purposes. It creates a protective barrier from other harmful elements, preserving the medium and allows the bacteria to thrive and populate their numbers. Also it helps to increase the vitamin and enzyme levels in the sauerkraut in this example as well

If one was experiencing a issue with sauerkraut it may be a overpopulation of bad strains of bacteria already present in the person's digestive micro-flora. And would subside over a short period of time once the good strains recolonize your micro flora  and reduce the bad strains numbers. The fact is fermented food is predigested during the fermentation process, so if anything would be far easier to digest then non fermented foods. Fermented foods are far to absent in our modern diet, those that seek health should truly begin to include some of these wonderful health building foods and also fermented drinks into their diets.


“Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”

                                                 Hippocrates.

 

[BlueWeezle]

I don't use or recommend powdered milk to people, powdered milk has to be made non fat to be able to be stored in the manner in which it is. Removing the fat from milk drastically denatures the structure of milk. 

Nestle makes a dried whole milk called NIDO, You can find it in the mexican section of a lot of supermarkets. Don't get the cans that have kids on them as they are basicly baby formula. I've made keifer from it before and it works pretty good. Not as good as packaged milk, but then store bought milk is not as good as fresh milk anyway.


I do a lot of fermenting, and the best tip I have is not to get too worried, once you understand what's happening it's hard to screw things up. I use 1 liter FIDO canning jars (made in Italy) to do the fermenting in and they work perfect for fermenting food for one or two people. And being canning jars I think they should hold up to the bumps and bangs in a van pretty well.

 

[Diesel4Life]

BlueWeezle,

I was not aware that Nestle's makes a dried whole milk product, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I did look it up and noticed soy lecithin as the second ingredient as well as several others, as I've mentioned in a previous post I prefer to make natural whole food ferments. But if someone else prefers that method it's always their choice to make. And yes I to have used Fido jars for forever as a great alternative to nasty plastic containers for storing dry goods and also great for storing refrigerator items as well., and yes their still made in Italy to. But not always as readily available as the Ball & Kerr brand canning jars are, and their also much more expensive.

I wish you continued success in your pursuit of great health, and thank you very much for sharing your experience/s with us.

 

[ccbreder]

Yes, jars shipped using fossil fuels from Italy can not be that much better than ball jars made by American Workers in the USA.

 

[Diesel4Life]

ccbreder,

I to always try to purchase items made here in the USA whenever possible. I really like the Fido jars as BlueWeezle mentioned as well. But over the years use them more for dry goods storage and refrigerator items storage. The Fido jars are very heavy thick wall glass attractive and have a really well made feel to them, but for my everyday ferments etc. I've always used the Ball-Kerr jars in various sizes. And of course have always relied on and preferred them for canning as well.

 

[BlueWeezle]

Yes, jars shipped using fossil fuels from Italy can not be that much better than ball jars made by American Workers in the USA.

Actually they are much better for fermenting in than a Ball jar. Ball and Kerr jars have a very thin rubber coating on the lids and they really just do not work as well for fermenting as the thick rubber gasket found on the Fido. The huge opening on the one L jars let me put my fist into the jar to really pack in the cabbage without some sort of tamper. And the square shape take up a little less room and makes more easier storage.

Some other things/problems about using Ball jars for fermenting.

• The lids are disposable so not the most green.
• The rings will rust a lot when exposed to the salt used in fermenting
• It's hard to get just the right pressure on the lids using the rings
• The ring and lid system Jarden (Ball - Kerr parent company) uses is great for canning where the canning creates a vacuum that holds the lid on. Fermenting however causes pressure in the jars so you need something mechanical like the bail on the Fido's to hold the lid down while still letting gas escape from the gasket.

There are a lot of airlock gadgets and glass weights, and etc.. that make using a ball jar work better but I don't want to fuzz with all that stuff

What I love about the fido jars is they make fermenting so simple even I can do it. Shred, Salt, Crunch, Stuff, Seal, Wait, Eat.

They are a hell of alot cheaper than getting a traditional crock, and two 1 litre jars is the perfect size for a single guy like me to keep a rotation of fermented foods going. 

Sorry for getting long winded

 

[ccbreder]

uh, ok for you. I will keep using my square-ish, wide mouth, 1/2 gallon ball jars, with out lids, during vegetable fermentation and use the savings to get a better bottle of wine. NLM

 

[towhee]

Diesel, what I meant by high heat is the temperatures reached in the van while closed up and in full sun. Could easily be 100F. Will the microorganisms tolerate that high temperature?

 

[highdesertranger]

ok I understand, everybody is so in to this that what type of container you use is important to you. but can we get the recipe for the sourdough bread culture. the suspense is killing me. highdesertranger

 

[Gary68]

sourdough,sourdough,we want sourdough

 

[anewbiewannabe]

but can we get the recipe for the  sourdough bread culture.  the suspense is killing me.  highdesertranger

Oh noes! We can't have that! You are too useful to us.

Here's one starter recipe:

1 cup all purpose flour (you can make your own choice on regular or organic)
1 cup spring or bottled water water (basically you don't want chlorine or chemicals to mess with the chemical reaction)
Stir together in a non-metal bowl until extremely well mixed. Wipe down the sides frequently so there's no unmixed flour.
Cover with towel and set on counter for 2-3 days until nice and bubbly.

Use what you need and replace what you use---again with the equal flour/water.

I'm not sure how it would do if temperature changes were extreme or how it will keep if it's really hot.

 

[Gary68]

Oh noes! We can't have that! You are too useful to us.

Here's one starter recipe:

1 cup all purpose flour (you can make your own choice on regular or organic)
1 cup spring or bottled water water (basically you don't want chlorine or chemicals to mess with the chemical reaction)
Stir together in a non-metal bowl until extremely well mixed. Wipe down the sides frequently so there's no unmixed flour.
Cover with towel and set on counter for 2-3 days until nice and bubbly.

Use what you need and replace what you use---again with the equal flour/water.

I'm not sure how it would do if temperature changes were extreme or how it will keep if it's really hot.

so flour with the yeast already in it,what baking temps/time?

 

[Gary68]

i hit the interweb and this looks more comprehensive
http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-sourdough-bread-224367

looks like wild yeast is the key

 

[anewbiewannabe]

NO, the old-fashioned sourdough doesn't have anything to do with yeast.  The fermentation process of the starter and then the resting phases of the bread creating set up all that's needed. It's the lacto-bacillus (sp) that does the job.  There are other recipes that do call for yeast but yeast isn't necessary for sourdough.

Sorry, I was off doing other things. Then I had to go get my recipe file and type this.

I haven't made sourdough bread in a long time as I had to give up gluten.  I just remember how to make the starter off the top of my head. NO, the all purpose flour shouldn't have yeast already in it.

I have an electric range so can only give you temps/times that I know. They will vary depending on what method of baking you use.

Place 1 cup  healthy sourdough starter in a bowl.

Add 1 1/2 cups lukewarm water, and 3 cups flour and really get it mixed up good.
Cover and let rest at room temperature for 4 hours. Then refrigerate overnight or for about 12 hours.

The dough will rise some overnight but not massively.

Add:
2 cups flour
1 tablespoon sugar
2 1/4 teaspoons salt

Mix and knead to form a smooth, satiny dough. (It may be dry at first but keep kneading and it will become a very stretchy somewhat sticky satiny blob.)

Put dough in bowl and let rest until it relaxes and smooths out and expands a bit. Between 2 to 4 hours.

Carefully divide the dough in half and shape it into a couple oval loaves and place them on a lightly greased baking sheet.

Cover and let rise, yet again, until pretty puffy, about 2 to 4 hours. They'll spread a bit but don't worry about it. (Well, unless they start hanging over the edges.)

When the loaves start looking a bit puffy PREHEAT the oven to 425°F.

Brush the tops of the loaves with lukewarm water.

Right before placing them in the oven slice each loaf with a couple of 1/2″ to 3/4″ deep diagonal slashes.

Bake for 25 to 30 minutes.  Depending on the starter the tops may or may not brown much but the bread will still be done---don't look for a certain color.

Sourdough in more of an art than science so may take some tweaks to get your perfect loaf.

 

[Gary68]

so where does the lacto basilblaaa come from?

what if i tossed in one of my probiotics?

 

[anewbiewannabe]

so where does the lacto basilblaaa come from?

what if i tossed in one of my probiotics?

LOL Now those sound like questions for the interweb.

I never thought about how/why it works or what the actual science is behind it. Leavened bread is one of those inventions that I sometimes wonder how the first person who made it discovered the trick to it. Or the first person to use yeast (wonder what form it was in) to make bread rise. :idea: Doubtful they were thinking about it from a truly scientific viewpoint. Just lots of trial and error I'm imagining. :huh:

Fermented food like kraut would have been discovered as people without today's conveniences looked for ways to preserve food for longer periods of time. Like salt-curing or brining meat or veggies. Or how about how vinegar was discovered and then found to be useful? Fascinating.

I'm grateful somebody figured it out. Just like vans and planes---I don't understand all of how they work, yet I'll use them just the same.

It's all good.

For the sourdough bread starter I was never one of those people who managed to keep it for years. Remembering to feed it and all that: so the interweb or somebody else will have to explain it for those who have the patience and memory to maintain it for longer periods of time.