Is solar power environment friendly?

[activelylit]

Excuse me if I'm posting this in the wrong section. I put it in electrical because that's where the solar power threads are.

Just recently watched this presentation, called "Green Illusion", and figured I'd bring it here for some more insight from the solar exports in the van-dwelling community. The following lecture hits on such points as the high cost of production, and the waste that comes with it, as well as the disposal issues of the solar cells, which are apparently extremely toxic and have to be handled like toxic waste. He also claims that panels will stop producing after five years.

I would like to hear what y'all have to say on this subject.

[video=youtube]

 

[66788]

I have panels from a municipal utility that installed them 30 years ago and they still output 80% of original spec. Not bad for longevity.

Now, Renogy panels might be different because they are so inexpensive to buy, I believe that they cut corners and don't use real silver in the production of the panels, whereas Kyocera and other top name brand panels do use silver. This could affect the longevity adversely.

As for "greeness" of the solar panels in general, it may be true that they really aren't that green. Let me ask you this, what are you going to use while boondocking? A fossil fuel powered generator? A long extension cord? Solar is necessary for boondocking, period. Green or not, it's the only practical game in town.

 

[dragonflyinthesky]

Just my opinion, he said nothing. What was his solution?

 

[AltTransBikes]

It's a good discussion though I'm not sure how much traction it will get. I watched the whole vid but I like this sort of thing. The young educator in the video makes good, common sense points but is certainly bucking the trend. Energy reduction and conservation is not very trendy.

In somewhat of a parallel way I see similarities with the power assist bikes I build. The public has largely been sold on the idea that electric vehicles are more 'green' than ICE powered vehicles. It's certainly arguable when the whole story and environmental footprint of production, energy generation and the messy little detail of battery disposal is considered.

I know that solar PV is fairly popular with some van/rv dwellers, particularly for boondocking and remote off the grid type locations. I'm not completely convinced however that is the way I'll go. Though cost per watt seems to have come down in recent years for PV, the initial start-up costs for a quality system can still be daunting for some budgets. Add in maintenance, security, and other quirks like having to park in the sun with a fixed system (or having to configure a remote system) has me hesitating before going all in on solar.

---

Just my opinion, he said nothing. What was his solution?

I think his solution in large part is energy reduction and conservation.

 

[akrvbob]

You have to ask yourself where do coal fired power plants come from? Do they just pop-up out of the ground? No, there is a huge amount of carbon burned to produce create the physical plant that is the source of electricity and my guess is the amount of carbon burned to make a solar panel is much less than the amount of build a coal fired plant.

And then you have to consider the amount of carbon produced over the lifetime of the plant in the actual production of electricity. With any other system (oil, coal, natural gas, diesel, propane) it's a huge amount of carbon to produce the fuel, transport the fuel, and then to finally burn the fuel!! With a solar pane it's zero!! Nada !! Zip!!! Zilch!!!! What could be greener than that! Of course if you want to have electricity at night you have to buy batteries so that is some carbon burned on an ongoing basis to make and transport the batteries, but still a tiny fraction of any other electircity generating system.

The real solution is conservation, but anybody who has lived off-grid with solar knows that conservation is all important in our lives. You have a limited amount of electricty and even that can disappear with bad weather so learning to use very little is the key to off-grid life.

Solar is very green and it tremendously encourages conservation.

Bob

 

[Seraphim]

What Bob said.

Nothing is going to be perfect. Which is the lesser of available evils?

But there are salient points. To build a solar array for a community, a large area of land is going to have to be cleared for the array, which would destroy habitats.

The only truly green answer is to go really primitive - no power of any sort, and no campfires allowed.

 

[rvwandering]

What Bob said for me too. I don't want to use the data to watch the video but solar panels last longer than 5 years. Two of ours are twenty years old and still working fine.

 

[dragonflyinthesky]

Consider the acreage cleared for a solar array, compare that to parking lots and buildings whose soil will never again see the sun. Compare that to a housing development.
So the guy thinks conservation is the key? Sounds nice but that likely hood of that happening to the degree needed is about the same as me getting a ride on a unicorn.

 

[akrvbob]

dragonflyonthesky, you haven't had a ride on a unicorn yet? What have you been doing!
Bob

 

[activelylit]

I can attest to solar encouraging conservation of energy, as I've got two 100w panels on my roof (though they are renogy, so we'll have to wait and see if their cut corners affect their lifespan), and I use significantly less power now than I did in a house. I'm a lot more aware of small things I took for granted when connected to the grid, such as lighting. And it's good to hear that some of your panels are lasting 25+ years.

Unfortunately people are raised to be consumers these days. Of both products and energy. The real solution to these problems lies in the power of the individual. People must wake up and take responsibility for themselves. In learning how to be an autonomous free-thinkers with the understanding of natural law, creativity solutions can be had. The best next action for all of us (if you so choose), is to turn people on to thinking outside of the boundaries they've been placed in by the culture that surrounds and envelopes them.

Teach them How to think instead of What to think. (Destroy the half-way houses known as schools!)

Thanks for all of your insightful replies!

Tony


Thanks to everyone for leaving your insightful comments.

 

[ccbreder]

Around me I see family homes with roof top solar, parking lots with overhead solar, and (run off water) detention ponds with solar panels. What is wrong with the solar use of that? A few proposals for other cleared areas were not approved.

 

[Sameer]

Take this in good spirits....We drive internal combustion machines, and you do too! Is that good for the environment? Is solar environmentally good....WHO CARES!!! IT'S WONDERFUL FOR OUR LIFESTYLE! I would not want to live without it! ! !

 

[Seraphim]

"Unfortunately people are raised to be consumers these days. Of both products and energy. The real solution to these problems lies in the power of the individual. People must wake up and take responsibility for themselves. In learning how to be an autonomous free-thinkers with the understanding of natural law, creativity solutions can be had. The best next action for all of us (if you so choose), is to turn people on to thinking outside of the boundaries they've been placed in by the culture that surrounds and envelopes them. "

All problems lie within the power of the individual. They just don't realize it, so they look to others - individuals or organizations - to solve their problems for them. No wonder they're dissatisfied.

 

[akrvbob]

Activelylit, very, very well said!!!

I 100% agree with everything you said!!
Bob

 

[Seraphim]

I can attest to solar encouraging conservation of energy, as I've got two 100w panels on my roof (though they are renogy, so we'll have to wait and see if their cut corners affect their lifespan), and I use significantly less power now than I did in a house. I'm a lot more aware of small things I took for granted when connected to the grid, such as lighting. And it's good to hear that some of your panels are lasting 25+ years.

Unfortunately people are raised to be consumers these days. Of both products and energy. The real solution to these problems lies in the power of the individual. People must wake up and take responsibility for themselves. In learning how to be an autonomous free-thinkers with the understanding of natural law, creativity solutions can be had. The best next action for all of us (if you so choose), is to turn people on to thinking outside of the boundaries they've been placed in by the culture that surrounds and envelopes them.

Teach them How to think instead of What to think. (Destroy the half-way houses known as schools!)

Thanks for all of your insightful replies!

Tony


Thanks to everyone for leaving your insightful comments.

Yes, but we NEED consumers for the capitalistic economy to function. If everyone hopped in a van and did their own thing, the economy would collapse. Be thankful for consumers. Even be thankful for those who are MINDLESS consumers. They make the economy better for everyone else.

Schools are also necessary. But a child only gets as much education as his parents help him acquire. Schools provide information, but they can't force a child to learn. Especially now, with all this testing crap being forced on schools, a teacher has no time. It's up to parents to help kids process information, and teach them what to do with it.

Unfortunately, as I said in my last post: people want to rely on others (schools) to handle their problems (raise their kids). That won't work. If they don't take an active hand in their child's education, school will be a waste of time for the child.

 

[activelylit]

Yes, but we NEED consumers for the capitalistic economy to function. If everyone hopped in a van and did their own thing, the economy would collapse. Be thankful for consumers. Even be thankful for those who are MINDLESS consumers. They make the economy better for everyone else.

Schools are also necessary. But a child only gets as much education as his parents help him acquire. Schools provide information, but they can't force a child to learn. Especially now, with all this testing crap being forced on schools, a teacher has no time. It's up to parents to help kids process information, and teach them what to do with it.

Unfortunately, as I said in my last post: people want to rely on others (schools) to handle their problems (raise their kids). That won't work. If they don't take an active hand in their child's education, school will be a waste of time for the child.

I don't consider school to be necessary at all, but detrimental in all regards. And I will not be thankful for mindless consumerism, as it only perpetuates mass slavery world-wide. Be it either through debt slavery or other forms. Sure, we all consume things, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be responsible about it. Mindless consumerism is not needed for a functioning monetary system. Not that I'm for a centralized currency.

Back to schooling... Which is completely the complete opposite of education, by the way. Back before forced attendance of government schools Americans were vastly more literate and pursued education at will. A "5th grader" (10 or so years old) back then would be reading works by Thoreau, Plato, Locke, etc.. They were much more advanced than the dumbed down masses today. Schooling was put into place as a tool of strong-state theology. A system we borrowed from Prussia Germany, who based their system on the Spartan's. The Spartans were all about using cradle to grave "education" to control the population and to keep power amassed at the top of a pyramid. They claimed to democratic while an elite group made all of the decisions behind the scenes. The American schooling system also has a few other important functions: to preserve a caste system and to feed the economy. I suggest looking into the figures that funded the creation of the schooling system. One of the great names involved was Rockefeller, and I believe the introduction statement by his General Education Board is very telling:

"In our dreams, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present education conventions fade from their minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply…The task we set before ourselves is very simple as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are. So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops and on the farm." - General Education Board, Occasional Papers, No. 1 (General Education Board, New York, 1913) p. 6.

A good resource for learning about this subject is John Taylor Gatto, author of the great work, "The Underground History of American Education". www.johntaylorgatto.com and www.theultimatehistorylesson.com

Sorry for going so far off topic.

 

[Seraphim]

I don't consider school to be necessary at all, but detrimental in all regards. And I will not be thankful for mindless consumerism, as it only perpetuates mass slavery world-wide. Be it either through debt slavery or other forms. Sure, we all consume things, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be responsible about it. Mindless consumerism is not needed for a functioning monetary system. Not that I'm for a centralized currency.

Back to schooling... Which is completely the complete opposite of education, by the way. Back before forced attendance of government schools Americans were vastly more literate and pursued education at will. A "5th grader" (10 or so years old) back then would be reading works by Thoreau, Plato, Locke, etc.. They were much more advanced than the dumbed down masses today. Schooling was put into place as a tool of strong-state theology. A system we borrowed from Prussia Germany, who based their system on the Spartan's. The Spartans were all about using cradle to grave "education" to control the population and to keep power amassed at the top of a pyramid. They claimed to democratic while an elite group made all of the decisions behind the scenes. The American schooling system also has a few other important functions: to preserve a caste system and to feed the economy. I suggest looking into the figures that funded the creation of the schooling system. One of the great names involved was Rockefeller, and I believe the introduction statement by his General Education Board is very telling:

"In our dreams, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present education conventions fade from their minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply…The task we set before ourselves is very simple as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are. So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops and on the farm." - General Education Board, Occasional Papers, No. 1 (General Education Board, New York, 1913) p. 6.

A good resource for learning about this subject is John Taylor Gatto, author of the great work, "The Underground History of American Education". www.johntaylorgatto.com and www.theultimatehistorylesson.com

Sorry for going so far off topic.

I will merely say we disagree, and I doubt we'll convince each other differently *grin*

 

[flailer]

Belief & Knowledge are two VERY different things.

The fact that (exclusive use of) solar causes one to conserve does NOT make solar green. ... what is happening is: It is the BEHAVIOR of the person conserving that is "green"

You are GREEN! How you behave! Not the system.

The FACT that most solar systems are installed improperly means that these systems are FAR from "green". (ref handly bob)
Why is this? because these systems are not producing power (barely any) , and the massively NON-GREEN manufacturing of said system creates damage, that is never properly compensated for: as the system does not produce energy.
Therefore the "green pay-back" takes much much longer. Perhaps 65 to 100 years. Perhaps never.

I could keep going, but I think you guys know where this is going: LINK

In the final analysis Solar power is GREAT. Wonderful. For several applications. But only the brainwashed "believe" it is green.

Again: Belief & Knowledge are two VERY different things.
One is based upon faith (i.e. marketing), the other upon information; Ideally FACTUAL information & data.

Morpheus said: Take the Blue pill, and in the morning you can believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[akrvbob]

We had a good discussion, it ended well, now let's stick to the subject at hand.
Bob

 

[flailer]

Green: Geothermal