Heavy electrical user

[CorbettO]

[size=x-large]I have unusually high electrical needs and would love your advice about what I should build into my electrical system.[/size]

[size=x-large]I have a Ford E-350 extended body van with a raised fiberglass roof. I use a wheelchair, live full-time solo on the road, and have high electrical needs. [/size]

[size=x-large]I am looking to build an electrical system that will allow me to Boondock for two weeks and will be physically the easiest to maintain.[/size]

[size=x-large]I’ve read about adding an alternator, a generator, dedicated batteries as well as solar. I will occasionally have shore power. The roof has space for a bit of solar.[/size]

[size=x-large]I have two lithium batteries 100ah from a previous build.[/size]

[size=x-large]DAILY NEEDS:[/size]
[size=x-large]Wheelchair lift (30 amps) x 10 cycles[/size]
[size=x-large]CPAP (7 amps) x 8 hours[/size]
[size=x-large]Power recliner (2 amps per recline) x 20 uses[/size]
[size=x-large]MaxxAir fan (4 amps) x 12 hrs[/size]
[size=x-large]Chest fridge (2) x 4 [/size]

[size=x-large]Plus the usual LED lights, computer and phone charging[/size]

[size=x-large]I also have a six way power seat but that will only be used when engine is running. [/size]

 

[bullfrog]

I didn't see any mention of air conditioning. Usually any heavy loads like that or a microwave require a generator. Most likely an installed generator with a tap into the upper 3/4s of your gas tank (like most motorhomes to prevent running out of fuel) with a quick drain for easy oil changes would be the primary source of power. Additional occasional battery charging could come from what solar you can fit (I have a panel that hinges off the back to make it easy to clean and it serves as an awning as well when parked) to help keep your house batteries charged and decrease generator run times. A remote start could be used to run your lift and recliner either from the generator or vehicle. I would think your generator would only have to run a few hours a day during high loads or cloudy days. Solar could handle the rest most of the time during sunny days but not two weeks if you have some cloudy days in my opinion. You may find with a larger battery bank and more solar you could do several days then visit an RV park or hook up to the grid to bulk charge the batteries without a generator but two weeks is a pushing the limits and a generator is always nice to have as an emergency back up.

 

[ldsreliance]

You don't have even a 1/10th the rooftop space you would need for solar to get you through 2 weeks of that usage. Plus, you need a large solar system to try to recharge two 100Ah lithium batteries.

This is going to require a combination of power sources to pull off. A generator should be your primary power source supplemented by solar, in my opinion. If you want to rely less on the generator, you could mount a string of panels on the roof and then another equal-sized string in a folding or suitcase configuration for a ground mount to be deployed on your two week long excursions. But I don't see any possible way to do this without a generator.

 

[jimindenver]

hmmmm

Can I see a picture of the roof, Please?

How did you measure the loads.

Your Cpap is a healthy load at close to 60 amps a night.

The lift pulls 30 amps while running? It doesn't take a hour per cycle I take it. How many minutes per cycle?

2 amps per cycle of the recliner sounds possible. So 40 amps

fan 48 amps

Two chest fridges, I am assuming 12 volt. One as a fridge, one as a freezer? That would be around 80 amps a day.

I can't see the lift taking 30 amps of capacity per cycle in the minutes it takes. The actual draw would five to six times that and the wiring would be the size of your thumb.

I think you are actually looking at 300 to 400 amp hours a day. Not bad.

The average number of watts I put on a van is 800 watts and I just got done putting over 1000 watts on a extended chevy van and still had room for a Maxxair fan. So unless the hightop is so contoured that panels or a rack can't be mounted up top, I don't see a issue. 1000 watts can easily produce 400 amp hours a day and a generator with a inverter charger can add 80 amps or more per hour in lean times. Add in a Isolator for when you are driving for more.

Battery wise I would go for 600 amp hours of usable capacity for a comfortable buffer. That's gonna run you $4500 if you go with LifeBlue lithium.

Now if you really want to see the dial spin, come watch my rig run a few 5000 Btu A/Cs, a electric stove or water heater along with the usual goodies. I have 1185 watts

 

[jonyjoe303]

my 365 watt solar panel can put 130ah's of charge into my 312ah li-ion batterybank on a day with good sun. So probably having at least 600 watts of solar should charge your 200ah of battery back up every day.
365 watt panels are expensive, but if you have room on your roof you can find 240 watt panels cheap, I seen them in the 80 dollar range on craiglist. 3 of them would give you alot of charge power.
Solar power should be your primary source of power unless its always cloudy or you don't have room for solar, otherwise you will be running your engine/ generator many hours every day.

 

[CorbettO]

I didn't see any mention of air conditioning. Usually any heavy loads like that or a microwave require a generator. Most likely an installed generator with a tap into the upper 3/4s of your gas tank (like most motorhomes to prevent running out of fuel) with a quick drain for easy oil changes would be the primary source of power. Additional occasional battery charging could come from what solar you can fit (I have a panel that hinges off the back to make it easy to clean and it serves as an awning as well when parked) to help keep your house batteries charged and decrease generator run times. A remote start could be used to run your lift and recliner either from the generator or vehicle. I would think your generator would only have to run a few hours a day during high loads or cloudy days. Solar could handle the rest most of the time during sunny days but not two weeks if you have some cloudy days in my opinion. You may find with a larger battery bank and more solar you could do several days then visit an RV park or hook up to the grid to bulk charge the batteries without a generator but two weeks is a pushing the limits and a generator is always nice to have as an emergency back up.

I am not planning to have air-conditioning or microwave.

 

[vanstu]

I would agree with Bullfrog and Jason on this--

Put as many PV panels as will fit on the roof and then use the genset when you have to. As you are disabled setting up an external PV array would be difficult for you. Your CPAP is not something you have an option about-- don't mess around with medical devices that are essential to your health!

Is your chair self-propelled? If so that is a large electrical load as well....

Just my thoughts....

 

[CorbettO]

Thank you for this great feedback. I have a some follow-up questions.

1. Since I have to have a generator now, as you’ve explained really clearly, would running the generator for a few hours get my two 100ah lithium batteries fully charged?

2. If yes, would it be more cost efficient to have the generator be the primary and solar be the back up?

3. If I use a remote start every time I use the lift or the recliner, would my two fully charged lithium batteries cover the rest of my electrical needs?

4. It seems as though you’re saying that the internal generator will be easier for me to manage than an external generator. Is there enough room to mount an internal generator on an E-350?

5. I plan on wintering in Quartzsite. But I’ll need the electrical system in place in the next month or two so that I can begin to travel. Any suggestions on who is reliable for this kind of work? I’m currently in Florida and planning to travel the East Coast for the next few months.

Answers to some questions asked above:

*my wheelchair is manual. No power required. I have an electric hand cycle with a battery. But I plan to charge that when I’m out in the world and not in the van.

*I do not have any pictures of the roof of the van. I’m not sure whether it’s entirely flat so I have no idea of though mount of space I have for mounting solar panels.

*The lift typically gets used for five minutes or less. So a cycle equals approximately five minutes of power usage.

*All of my amp numbers are rough. Based on manufacturers statements not actual testing.

 

[highdesertranger]

Using the lift for 5 minutes ten times a day is 50min so it should be under 30Ah's. Quite doable with your batteries.

The CPAP power consumption seems high to me. May people run CPAP's of a batteries and solar. perhaps a more efficient CPAP is out there.
But I have now experience with them hopefully some one who knows will chime in.

IMO on a van the best way to mount the solar is with a ladder rack. How tall is your fiberglass top?

I would try to do solar and generator backup. Much more efficient by leaps and bounds, and your neighbors will be much happier.

Yes you can mount an electric start permanently mounted generator on an E350 but it will be very expensive and you will loose a ton of interior space. Note, the generator MUST be totally isolated from the living compartment and very well insulated. If you mount an external generator on a front or rear rack it will be a lot cheaper.

If I were you I would get a hold of Jim In Denver post #4. He does this for a living and he can work out a system for you. Just remember he needs to make money like everyone else.

Highdesertranger

 

[bullfrog]

Space in a van is always at a premium. Some van based Class B motorhomes have built in generators. Usually they are vented and accessed from the outside much like a cargo box would be mounted. Generators are noisy so having a sound reducing compartment is important. I would check with some local RV generator repair shops to see if any do installs. You might find a used unit with the compartment and all the hardware there. There are cheaper options but a lot will depend on you and your abilities. If you can mount a rear cargo rack that is a possibility and dual fuel generators can run on propane if you want to avoid dealing with tapping the vehicles system and don't want to mess with gas cans. There are lots of options. The first step is figuring out exactly how much power you need and again someone that does installs should be able to help.

 

[jimindenver]

Next to me is a van with a hightop that I put 800 watts of solar and 400 Ah of lithium batteries.
her loads are different. She has a huge Engel dual zone refrigerator/freezer, a Maxxair fan, A microwave, a George Foremen grill and a electric recliner. I asked her to run the recliner and tell me what the readout on the inverter was. She said 0.03. I am assuming that's amps and it's very low. The cycle of fully upright to fully reclined and back to fully upright again took 12 seconds. By the way. .03 amps at 120 volts is roughly .3 amps at 12 volts.

Solar is part of a balanced system that includes knowing your needs, having enough battery capacity to cover when the sun isn't shining or at least overnight, more if possible, enough panel to get them charged up relatively quickly when the sun does shine and a alternative form of charging for when it doesn't shine long enough. Generator, alternator or shore power.

I have never suggested someone not carry a generator. I use one simply because I currently do not have the battery capacity to handle multiple days of bad weather or shade. It doesn't require medical devices to desire a back up. Keeping the freezer going or running the A/C on a cloudy, muggy day is enough.

I do agree that a dual fuel, remote start generator would be best. Propane is easier to store and doesn't go bad, ruining the carburetor.

Onboard generators are expensive. Expensive to install, expensive to maintain and really expensive to get repaired and that's if you can find someone to do it. They are also not inverter technology so they are louder and more expensive to run.

A design takes long enough to figure out what roof you have, what fits up there, how the panels will mount, what rack if any is needed or do I need to custom build one. Create a list of what needs to be ordered and send it to you. I don't sell any product which allows me to pick what is best for your situation. You can have it installed or I can do it.

Once we work out your design we will look at how much power it can produce. We will compare that with your needs and decide if you need to run the generator and if so, when would be the best time to do it.

Is it cheap? no

It takes a considerable amount of time to work out a custom design. Quality components with proven reliability cost more than off branded or rebranded. A install is not a slam it in kind of thing. It can't leak, it can't fall off and it can't fail. You will be sleeping in there after all so some overkill is good.

Afterwards I use your phone to make a video of your system. I explain what each component is, what it does and how to use it. I have customers that send me the history page of the controller each morning so that I can make sure it is producing what it should and is meeting their needs. It also allows me to watch for things like batteries failing, changes in need and in one case a serious addiction to shade. I can even tell you if your panels need to be washed. It teaches you to look at your system on a regular basis and learn what the numbers and graphs mean.

There is another option that may be quicker if more expensive. There are shops that you can pull into. They will fit as much of what they carry on your roof. The design will be free because they have mark ups on the components as well as charge more for the labor. The upside is they may get it done much faster.

(would you believe that Northern Arizona wind and sun charges $12.75 a foot for 4/0...you can get it online for $5.20 a foot)

 

[crofter]

When considering solar, you should factor in shade if you are camping in areas with trees. Some mountainous areas have few developed camp sites in the sun.
-crofter