Fixed misfire, now tune up time. Any precautions? Also, rust falling under the plugs?

[ramblingvanman]

Wow!  I know that you are a professional mechanic and I'm just a tinkerer.  But I had never heard of using anti-seize on spark plugs before.  In fact, long, long ago, when I was first started tinkering with cars, the conventional wisdom was that you never used something like that on spark plugs cause it could interfere with the plug's ground path to the head.  But that was the old iron heads, not the modern aluminum ones.

I've just googled the question, and I'm seeing all kinds of opinions on this, both pro and con. 

I have too much respect for you to say that this is wrong.  A lot of stuff has changed over the years, and this could well be one of them, so maybe my information is out of date.

Regards
John

I have been putting anti-seize on plugs on plugs since I started working on cars. I have never regretted it. Every mechanic I have ever worked with has done the same. A thin layer if anti-seize will not interfere with the ground path of the plug. I have never heard of that happening.

 

[MikeRuth]

Old rotor...

Very typical, definitely needed replacing, Is she purrrrring along now?

 

[TMG51]

Very typical, definitely needed replacing, Is she purrrrring along now?

The clicking (misfiring) I'd been experiencing is gone and she's definitely running better but I'm concerned that something else may be going on. I've been experiencing a vibration that seems to be connected to RPM and that hasn't gone away.

I have enough time and effort invested in this van that if the engine blew tomorrow I would take out my savings and have a new one put in it. But of course I don't want that to happen. I think she has a lot of life left in her.

 

[B and C]

Is the vibration with the van out of gear (in park)?  If it is, there are two possibilities that I can think of off the top of my head.  

1.  You did change one spark plug wire at a time didn't you?  If not, you may have two wires backwards.  Depending on where in the firing order in relation to the pistons in the cylinders, these two could be firing on the exhaust stroke with the vibration getting worse the faster the engine runs.

2.  Check the harmonic balancer on the front of the crankshaft.  It will have the fan belt pulleys attached to it that drives your accessories and also has the marks for timing the engine.  Does it wobble or have a little bit of rubber sticking out in one part (uneven)?  If it does, the rubber has gone letting the outer ring spin on the inner part connected to the crankshaft.  It is a two piece item with a rubber band (for lack of a better term) that holds the two pieces together and is the dampener part of the harmonic balancer.  The rubber gets brittle with age and lets go of the metal and spins out of position.

Brian

 

[Gary68]

can you refresh us on what year,model ,engine?

have you used a timing light on it?

 

[TMG51]

Is the vibration with the van out of gear (in park)?  If it is, there are two possibilities that I can think of off the top of my head.  

1.  You did change one spark plug wire at a time didn't you?  If not, you may have two wires backwards.  Depending on where in the firing order in relation to the pistons in the cylinders, these two could be firing on the exhaust stroke with the vibration getting worse the faster the engine runs.

2.  Check the harmonic balancer on the front of the crankshaft.  It will have the fan belt pulleys attached to it that drives your accessories and also has the marks for timing the engine.  Does it wobble or have a little bit of rubber sticking out in one part (uneven)?  If it does, the rubber has gone letting the outer ring spin on the inner part connected to the crankshaft.  It is a two piece item with a rubber band (for lack of a better term) that holds the two pieces together and is the dampener part of the harmonic balancer.  The rubber gets brittle with age and lets go of the metal and spins out of position.

Brian

I definitely appreciate the advice, and I don't expect anyone to be able to diagnose the issue based on my description, but in response to your query: No, the vibration does not occur when revving the engine in park. I changed only one wire at a time, labeling them beforehand, and am extremely confident they are all correct. The "vibration" I'm referring to sounds EXACTLY like the noise you hear when one wheel touches the rumble strip on the side of the road. I first heard it weeks ago - it would occur for only 1/2 second at a time, and only at highway speed. I thought at first this was just vibration from the road. It took many weeks for me to begin to suspect that the noise was mechanical but I came to realize its frequency was increasing. As of now, it's to the point that when I hold speed on a slight incline (never downhill or on a flat) I sometimes experience this same vibration (again, sounding exactly as it would if you were driving over a rumble strip) that will maintain as long as I hold the right RPM/throttle. If I brake or accelerate it goes away.

I'm concerned that this may be connected to the misfiring, as although I've corrected the misfire, the worsening of the "rumble strip noise" seems to have coincided with the worsening of the misfire.

Once again I'm not asking for a diagnosis, just elaborating upon my experience.

Edit: I should say also that this doesn't seem to be a wheel balance thing. I've experienced wheel balance issues and they've always been related to speed. This rumble noise might occur when going up a grade at 35 mph, or intermittently occur at 60+ mph... and only uphill... seems to be more about RPM than speed/balance.

 

[TMG51]

can you refresh us on what year,model ,engine?

have you used a timing light on it?

1999 Dodge Ram 3500 5.9L V8.

I don't know what a timing light is.   I am mechanically inclined but my experience is limited to solving only whatever problems have cropped up in my history. I learn as I go.

 

[Gary68]

have you had any codes pulled? autozone will do it for free,but yea tough one without being hands on,could be many things,maybe one of the pro's here can help but it might be time to take it to a good mechanic for a test drive,sorry but thats all i got

 

[highdesertranger]

aah com'on we want to trouble shoot your vibration over the inter web. highdesertranger

 

[TMG51]

I had Advance Auto pull codes for me when the "clicking" worsened. Only code was no. 8 cylinder misfire. That's how I learned what that was and repaired it.

Thanks for the input - I know it's impossible to diagnose things like this based on someone's description and I don't expect that - just sharing.

 

[highdesertranger]

TMG51 you show more insight than most people with that last post. highdesertranger

 

[Lostinspace]

I'm experiencing a similar vibration with my 2006 V8 Tundra pickup. I have 168k in miles.  I had the transmission serviced, per the manual, at 100k along with flushing the brake system. I've owned my Toyota since new and never a problem with it.  Always done the services to it in the manual.  

My vibration only occurs on a slight incline in the 35 mph range. I can back off on the throttle just slightly and it will cease. It is not temperature related, as it can happen at first crank up or after driving into town 13 miles away. And is not consistent, it can go a week and not happen or the next incline won't cause the vibration. I do almost all of my mechanical work. I've never experienced this on any of the vehicles I've had.

I'm starting to wonder if possibly it's the torque converter?  Or low tranny fluid. I will check it when the sun comes up.

The transmission service interval was per the manual.  I also had the cooling system back flushed along with the transmission service.

Any thoughts on the vibration?  So I'm wondering if the vibration TMG51 is experiencing is transmission related or torque converter related?

Oh forgot to mention once I reach top gear and the torque converter is in lockup there is no vibration.  And the vibration is not consistent. It can occur at any temperature and doesn't always happen.

I would prefer to have a manual transmission, but try getting one of those nowadays in a full size pickup.

 

[MikeRuth]

U-joints!!! check them for sloppiness. Wheel bearings. but you said under load only, so back to the drive shaft.
Since it is something changing I'd bet U joint over balance.

 

[highdesertranger]

well vibrations are a mother effer to find sometimes. first thing I would do is check the u-joints like Mike said. do you have a lift kit installed? how many miles? highdesertranger

 

[SternWake]

The Rumble strip comment reminded me of when I had torque converter clutch chatter caused by improper fluid in my Transmission courtesy of a nationwide transmission chain that should have known better.


YOu likely have the A 518 which is sturdier than my A-500, but both of these transmissions despise the  bulk Universal fluids that transmission shops use. They will say that all they have to do is add such and such a product,a friction modifier, and it will magically take their low grade ATF and turn it into a Synthetic ATF+4.

Effing bullshit.

Mine would do the rumble strip thing at 47 to ~65 mph under light acceleration.  HArder acceleration and it would downshift and not occur.  I wound up driving a great distance just trying to minimize the occurrence ia the gas pedal.

Solution was having the lines flushed at a Dodge dealer with then ATF+3/7176 fluid, as ATF+4 had not come out yet.

Now it is nothing but ATF+4.  NOt a rumble strip since I got the correct spec fluid in there, and that was 70K miles ago.
I put a drain plug in my ATF pan so draining and replacing 4 quarts of ATF+4 is simple and not messy.

I've an additional transmission cooler in front of my radiator, plumbed before the radiator ATF cooler, and on the flex lines i have a Magnefine filter.

The filter in the pan only filters particles as low as 100 microns, where at the magnefine will filter particles down to 20 microns, and has a magnet to catch ferrous material, and a Bypass for if it gets too restrictive.

I will be adding a remote oil filter just for the ATF and getting rid of the magnefine inline filter as they tend to weep ATF, in my experience.

These Auto transissions seem to have an average lifespan of 130K miles with average maintenance performed.  The high top adds a lot more stress to the overdrive unit at highways speeds and they say it is the OD which begins to fail first and take out the rest of the transmission.

All one can really do is prevent the premature breakdown of the correct ATF fluid by not letting it get too hot.  Extra filtration can't hurt.

I also keep mine out of overdrive at lower speeds when climbing hills or needing to accelerate.  Mine will go into overdrive at 28mph under light loads, but the lock up torque converter will not engage below 47mph

[/img]http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z207/Ram4ever/Scratch/transmissionlifespanPG02-R1.jpg[/img]

 

[highdesertranger]

I have seen those transmission heat charts before and find them interesting. with most factory coolers running though the radiator the minimum temp is going to be 200+ degrees. because the cooler can not lower the temp below the temp of the coolant. so I think those charts are more geared to selling people aftermarket coolers, not to show actual life expectancy. now don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with after market coolers all vans and trucks should have them. highdesertranger

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I never gave much thought to HOW you hooked an aftermarket tranny cooler up until after I ran across this passage in FOUR WHEELER'S BIBLE by Jim Allen:

"If you live in a warm climate, mount the new cooler so that the radiator (oil-to-water cooler) outlet feeds into the oil-to-air unit and then feeds back to the transmission.  If you live in a consistently cool or cold climate, reverse this so the outgoing oil from the trans enters the oil-to-air cooler first and then feeds back into the radiator cooler.  This prevents overcooling in cold weather, which is also detrimental over the long term."

Regards
John

 

[highdesertranger]

that's a good point Paranoid. however if you have an over cooling problem you need to block the air flow on the grill so that everything comes up to temp. so it kinda makes that a mute point. at least that's how I was taught, because most places get at least warm part of the year. highdesertranger

 

[SternWake]

Well the thing to take away from the charts is that excessive ATF temperatures cause the ATF to oxidize and break down and fail to lubricate properly.


The weakest mechanical link of Dodges is the transmissions, and ATF+4 was developed to help counteract their design faults, and to a large part this Synthetic Fluid has helped tremendously.

A huge issue with chrysler vehicles is the transmission shops do not want to carry ATF+4, just for chrysler vehicles, but they have their chemical purveyors come in with a universal ATF and a long list of vehicles they claim it is safe to use in, and it includes Chryslers.

So many chryslers leave a servicing with the wrong fluid diluting the worn out proper fluid and it is just a matter of time before the transmission makes it known it is not happy.

With Dodge Vans with Overdrive transmissions, Use ATF+4 only.  If  you do not want to service the vehicle yourself, bring your own ATF+4 and make sure they use it.

On my dodge, thereare two radiator tanks, upper and lower, where as many other makes have side tanks.  My ATF cooler is in the lower tank and while the upper tank will read 190f or so, the bottom tank comes out about 25 to 30F cooler in normal operating conditions.

My extra cooler is plumbed first inline, then it goes through the magnefine filter, then to the radiator cooler, which also acts like a fluid warmer in winter, then back to the transmission.  Perhaps if I was climbing mountain ranges often in summer I would plumb the cooler after the radiator. 

I do not have a separate SATF temperature gauge.  I'd like one. perhaps one day.

When I have used my IR gun after a long highway drive the pan was 182f

My transmission went out about 5K miles after I purchased my van, and basically cost the same as the Van to have rebuilt.  My TCCC shuddering was caused by Aamco using their bulk universal crap ATF when the refilled the system  The shuddering was occurring within a year and under 10K miles and they went through huge efforts to deny the shuddering was transmission related.  Scumbags.  They even tried to deny it was actually shuddering.  I threatened the bozo telling him I was going to slam his head on the floor boards and place my foot while it shuddered away on his neck if he did not stop insulting me.

An  ATF+3 flush fixed it.  I added another cooler, I added another filter, I drop and swap swap 4 quarts out likely more than I have to but it gives me the warm and fuzzies to do so.

They say all ATF+4, whatever brand, is exactly the same as it has to use the same basestocks and additive package to meet the approvals.  So Walmart Supertech atf+4 should, in theory, be just as good as pennzoil platinum ATF+4.

One could also get a deeper and finned aluminum transmission pan to hold more fluid and aid cooling of it.  I am unwilling to lose ground clearance for this, but I feel there is not much more I can do to prolong the life of my rebuilt transmission.  Correct fluid, properly cooled and filtered, and keep it out of overdrive under 50mph unless the loads are very light.

They also say that ATF+4's color cannot be used as a visual check, that it can turn dark red/ brown and still be fine, but mine is still pink and smells sweet.

Anyway with Dodges, ATF+4 only, and DO NOT TRUST anybody servicing the transmission to actually use the right Fluid in them.

 

[TMG51]

Lots of good info here again...

So to boil it down to a next step: Perhaps I should just drain my transmission and fill with ATF+4?