Diesel engines in a van?

[Vagabound]

In general, I've gotten the impression -- right or wrong -- that avoiding diesel engines is a good idea.  Reason:  As far as I can tell, diesel engines are more expensive, for routine maintenance and for repairs, harder to locate a decent mechanic, and although they last longer than gas engines, end up being more trouble/cost that the average bear wants to deal with.

In addition to getting opinions on whether that above is right or wrong, I'd like some thoughts on a particular class of vehicle.  

I can see how that would be true for very large trucks (tractor trailer) and even buses.  However, I'm wondering how true it is for the much smaller size of diesel engine that would likely be in, for example, a Chevy 3500 cargo van, roughly year 2000?

Any info appreciated.

Vagabound

 

[Gary68]

my issue is the smell of diesel,i just dont like it probably from over exposure taking long haul trips with my grandpa when i was young,would get out of school and spend the summer traveling the country,remember being gassed out a couple times parked at truck stops

 

[highdesertranger]

I think the older mechanical diesels are great, the newer electronic diesels not so great. but I think that way about gas engines too. the older IDI engines do not cost more for maintenance then a gasser, they will outlast a gasser and get much better mpg, however they are not race car engines. the newer electronic DI engines I would not depend on. so it really depends on what year we are talking about. I am a big fan of the GM(Detroit Diesel) 6.2/6.5 platform. highdesertranger

 

[Vagabound]

I think the older mechanical diesels are great,  the newer electronic diesels not so great.  ...

Thanks.  Is there a rule of thumb about the dividing line (year) between those two?  Although I'd be interested in the answer in general, I mentioned an early-2000s Chevy 3500.

And about maintenance, with a diesel engine, are there still many repair shops to choose from or is it limited to truck stops, etc?

Vagabound

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

To my mind, the only real advantage diesels have is that they produce more torque - a LOT more torque - than gas engines do.

For example, starting in 2011, the Ford Super Duty pickups were available with two engines.  A 6.2 liter gas engine that put out 385 horsepower and 405 foot-pounds of torque.  And a 6.7 liter diesel engine that produces 390 hp and 735 ft-lbs of torque.

If you're going to drop a heavy truck camper on the back, or hook one of those huge 5th wheel mansions-on-wheels up to it, you probably NEED the diesel engine.

If not, it's awful hard to justify a diesels greater cost and expenses.

Longer life and better mpg?  I doubt the average person here will see either.  And the rest of the vehicle will be - expensively - coming apart around you while you try to eke out 400 to 500 thousand miles.  Unless, like HDR, you do all your own work and assign no monetary value to the time you spend working on your rig.

 

[Vagabound]

...

If not, it's awful hard to justify a diesels greater cost and expenses.

Longer life and better mpg?  I doubt the average person here will see either. 

...

John, thanks for the really informative reply.  Very practical angle.

Greater expenses:  All other things being equal, if we're talking about routine maintenance (tune-ups, etc.) and repairs, what kind of increased cost would you expect over a similar gas engine, 10% or 50% or 100%?  Just trying to get some idea, rule of thumb, etc.

Unrealized benefits:  You said the average person wouldn't see longer life or better mpg.  Can you explain a bit why you think that's the case?

Vagabound

 

[masterplumber]

While I don't distrust newer diesels as much as HDR, I drive a 2012 Ram Cummins, I do like the older ones better for their simplicity and my own mechanical abilities. As far as diesel vs gas, John is on the right track. I drive a diesel because my truck is always loaded to about 10,000 lbs gvw and I tow a lot of trailers, and I live in the mountains. In my case, it definitely preforms better than any gas engine would, and gets significantly better mileage. I also typically put about 200,000 miles on a vehicle in a 10 year span before trading it off for something different. But I don't think my use is typical of most on here. If I didn't already know the mechanics of diesels fairly well, and wasn't hauling more than a typical van conversion around, I would probably opt for a small block gas v8, but not the smallest ones. The sweet spot for power vs mileage seems to be in the mid 5 liter range, like the 5.3 GM or 5.4 Ford. Some don't like the 5.4 Ford due to some years having problems with the spark plugs blowing out of their holes, but you can research that and just avoid those years if you like the Ford platform. Or just buy GM.

As for maintenance costs, diesels need their oil changed just as often, but they hold 12 - 14 quarts of oil instead of 5 -7 and their filters are also about twice as much. I think it runs me about $65 in materials alone to change the oil in my Ram. The fuel filter is also about $30 and there are a few other things like an EGR filter that need periodic attention. On the other hand there are no spark plugs and wires, or distributer cap to worry about. Of course those have gotten a lot better in the last couple decades and they typically can last up to 100,000 miles now, vs changing them every 15,000 or so like we had to do in the 70s and 80s.

 

[ArtW]

I've also heard of certain years of the Ford 5.4 having cam phaser failure (those years have variable valve timing) and the cost of that is about $1200
However I have to add that's hearsay, as I don't know anyone personally whom it's happened to, and I'm not Ford mechanic
My youngest stepson likes the Cummins in the early Dodge Ram 2500-3500, and his dually used to get about 20 mpg, which is a fair bit better than a 1 ton gasser usually gets in my experience, but working on it was always a learning experience and an expensive one

I guess this is a long winded way of saying 'I dunno'

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Unrealized benefits:  You said the average person wouldn't see longer life or better mpg.  Can you explain a bit why you think that's the case?

I have to admit that I was surprised to see Masterplumber's post where he says he gets better mpg with diesel.  I was under the impression that diesels rep for great fuel mileage was a holdover from the old days of "dirty" diesel.  Now that the feds require all diesel sold to be the Ultra Low Sulfur kind, it takes a lot more refining to produce it, from better crude stocks, and it's a lot more expensive.  Or so I hear.

Lots' of anecdotal evidence suggests the new diesels are extremely sensitive to fuel quality, and a single batch of bad fuel can wipe out expensive pumps and injectors.

There are also lots of reports of transmission problems behind diesels, because of all the torque.

The really interesting thing to me is that even though Ford, GM, and Ram charge you between 5 and 10 thousand dollars more for diesel on a new truck, they still only warrant it for 100,000 miles, just like the gas engines.  If they were really capable of going 300,000 or more miles trouble free, you'd think the warranty would be for 200,000 miles wouldn't you?

Anyway, here's a youtube video you might find interesting.

[video=youtube]

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Unrealized benefits:  You said the average person wouldn't see longer life or better mpg.  Can you explain a bit why you think that's the case?

From my personal experience:

I don't know about gas milage as I have never owned a diesel.

As to longer life; I have pushed my last two trucks to ~300,000 miles (gas, manual transmission).  The reasons I got rid of them is the failure of other parts, such as suspension components, interior parts, body parts, etc.  It is not that each of these is a major expense in and of itself, it is the frequency and accumulation of these costs; the truck starts to 'nickel and dime-ing' me to death.  I cannot see that there would be any difference with a diesel as they use the same bodies.

. . .
The really interesting thing to me is that even though Ford, GM, and Ram charge you between 5 and 10 thousand dollars more for diesel on a new truck, they still only warrant it for 100,000 miles, just like the gas engines.  If they were really capable of going 300,000 or more miles trouble free, you'd think the warranty would be for 200,000 miles wouldn't you? . . .

Just hearsay, I know a couple of engineers for Cummins.  They both say that Cummins wanted to warrantee their diesel for 300,000 miles and Dodge would not agree to that.

 -- Spiff

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Just hearsay, I know a couple of engineers for Cummins.  They both say that Cummins wanted to warrantee their diesel for 300,000 miles and Dodge would not agree to that.

I hear good things about Cummings, they do seem to be a lot better than the Fords and Internationals.

I don't believe you can get a Cummings in a van, only in a pickup

 

[muddy]

I don't believe you can get a Cummings in a van, only in a pickup

They're also, from what I have seen, highly valued even on otherwise beat up old Dodges.

 

[highdesertranger]

a gasoline engine is roughly 30% efficient. meaning it turns 30% of the available energy in gasoline into useable energy(making your car go), the rest is wasted energy mostly in the form of heat. a diesel is roughly 50% efficient. in fact a diesel is the most efficient engine yet, that is in widespread use. now if you can't get significant better MPG with a diesel you are doing something wrong. highdesertranger

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

. . .  now if you can't get significant better MPG with a diesel you are doing something wrong.  highdesertranger

OK.  But if you're buying a new truck, and the diesel engine costs, say, $6,000 more than the gasoline engine, how many miles do you have to drive it to hit the break-even point?

 

[highdesertranger]

I agree OP. the newer diesels are way to complicated and way to expensive. highdesertranger

 

[akrvbob]

When I drove to Alaska and back in my girlfirends 5.3 chevy we averaged 17 mpg. which is not exceptional for the 5.3.
Honestly, how much better is a diesel going to do? Some years of the Cummins would have averaged 20 mpg, say 20% better.

Although this now varies a lot, for the most part diesel fuel cost 10-20% more on price, negating the better MPG but leaving you with a

1) much higher initial purchase price
2) much higher routine maintenance,
3) tremendously higher cost of repairs
4) much greater chance of a transmission rebuild.
5) an unpleasant driving experience
6) the rest of the vehicle is falling apart at the same rate or even faster with all the extra weight on the front end.
7) they are harder to find service on than gas engines.

To me the math just doesn't work--unless you pull big loads, then they really are your best choice. But that's just another reason to go small and go light, so you don't need diesel to drag it around.
Bob

 

[masterplumber]

What Bob said, and why I said my usage is probably not average for the members of this forum. My normal gross weight is 10,000 lbs without a trailer, and 14,000 to well over 20,000 depending upon trailer and load when towing. And no, the mileage of the newer diesels is not as good as the older ones. I average about 12 with a high of 16. But if I hauled the weight I'm hauling with a V10 gasser I'd probably average 7. Now if I was running around in a van with just enough to be comfortable and only the tools I needed to maintain the van, I'd be driving a van just like Bob's girlfriend's.

 

[speedhighway46]

Another perspective: I have a 2003 7.3 diesel excursion with 170,000 miles. Fuel mileage now is average 17-19 mph. The engine has been bullet proof; just regular maintenance every 5,000 miles.

That sounds pretty impressive doesn't it? The weak point is the rest of the vehicle, particularly the front end suspension and 4 wheel drive components. This vehicle has never been stressed or abused. In the last two years the body has really started going down hill with rust and corrosion.

By the time the cost of the desiiel "pays for itself" the truck will be looking like a junker.

Don't buy into the "diesel advantages" unless you REALLY need the torque!

Just my opinion . . .

 

[arctic cat]

I'm going to agreed pretty much with everyone in here.   Every vehicle have their pros and cons, and like anything mechanical if you don't maintain it it's going to fall apart on you.    I have a Jeep with 140,000 miles that I drove from dealership with 0 miles 12 years ago.   I had drove this Jeep all the way to Alaska and the Florida Keys.  This vehicle is running strong because of PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE.   In the other hand I recently became the owner of 1986 G30 HI-Cube that was military surplus and it's a 6.2 Diesel.   Perhaps not the best diesel engine out there, but It's very easy to work on.   There is not a lot people that know or are willing to work on older diesel, especially when they are in vans.   But this is a fairly easy diesel to work on.   I found the parts the parts for this particular diesel engine are fairly cheap in comparison to newer diesel.   I'm of course lucky that I'm mechanically inclined and I do most of my maintenance and maintenance my friends include everything not just the engine.    I hate to walk and breakdown so I prefer to do PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE than FIX AS YOU GO MAINTENANCE.  But with everything mechanical maintenance is going to be an issued.   I prefer to invest in preventive maintenance than to pay the local Sheriff/Judge/Mechanic (in some town they are the same person).

I just recently did a 2,800 miles test drive on my diesel van and for the most part it did very well.   Been an older diesel I found that the mechanical pump don't compensate for high altitude.    Because my vehicle is a military surplus I found out that the engine have a higher HP (165 HP vs the 130 HP on civilian) than the civilian version by pouring more fuel in the injectors which in turn cause considerably more smoke in higher altitudes.  While I may not win any races the vehicle have a lot of torque.

If you are considering using a vehicle as your house I suggest learning to do some of the maintenance, just like you would do in a house, otherwise it may fall apart on you.   That is true for anything  a house, motorcycle, diesel or gas engines, bicycle and ect.

Some people either don't like doing or just don't know how to their maintenance and those people have to pay someone else or invest on new vehicle every so often.

 

[highdesertranger]

thanks for the review arctic cat. did you do any MPG test on the diesel on your trip? highdesertranger