did I damage the batteries?

[dogear52]

I went ahead and bought a Schumacher XC103 charger until I can save for a more appropriate one and charged the 2 6v US2200 batteries I just bought in series using "standard" battery mode. At the start time the charge status % read 95% and I put the charger on 30amp fast charge to get it to 100%. It's supposed to automatically drop the charge down to "maintain" level when it reaches 100%. I went back to the charger to check on it at about 97% charge I could smell sulfur gas (well ventilated area) until it hit 100% then it went to maintain, but I pulled the plug. I've read about off gassing so assumed it was normal until I googled and read a few posts re. the smell. The only other battery types the charger lists are "gel" and "agm". Did I cook them too much? Water level is well over plates. Maybe too much water? The volt meter read 6.67 after charge.....now 1/2 hr later it's 6.45 on each battery.

 

[SternWake]

I went ahead and bought a Schumacher XC103 charger until I can save for a more appropriate one and charged the 2 6v US2200 batteries I just bought in series using "standard" battery mode. At the start time the charge status % read 95% and I put the charger on 30amp fast charge to get it to 100%. It's supposed to automatically drop the charge down to "maintain" level when it reaches 100%. I went back to the charger to check on it at about 97% charge I could smell sulfur gas (well ventilated area) until it hit 100% then it went to maintain, but I pulled the plug. I've read about off gassing so assumed it was normal until I googled and read a few posts re. the smell. The only other battery types the charger lists are "gel" and "agm". Did I cook them too much? Water level is well over plates. Maybe too much water? The volt meter read 6.67 after charge.....now 1/2 hr later it's 6.45 on each battery.

I had just spent a half hour typing a response, then hit a back space key or a page down key and shift at the same time and the browser closed.

Tool throwing curse fest narrowly avoided.

So here is the slightly condensed version of my disappeared reply.

I do Not trust Schumacher chargers.  They go to way too high a voltage with too high an amperage.  Their voltage display is way off on my Sc2500a, the state of charge % displayed are based solely on voltage alone when first hooked up, and the 12awg copper that comes out of my Schumacher is the absolute worst quality wire I have ever seen.  It gets smelly hot passing 25 amps and must be the most impure copper wire ever asked to pass an electron.

Smelling the battery is normal when it is in the 90% charged range, but a super strong smell in a big room indicates serious overcharging.

Picking the 30 amp setting, and the charger assumes it is attached to a large depleted battery, even though the voltage display should have been high enough to indicate that the battery is not super depleted.  Yet the schumachers just blast away at way too high a current bringing the battery to way too high a voltage.  You should have chosen a lower amperage on those fresh batteries.

 Ideally you would have brought them upto 14 volts and held them there for 6 hours for that initial condition charge on a new GC battery.

Voltage alone tells well less than half the story when charging.  How many amps are flowing at that voltage tells 95% of the story regarding battery state of charge.

If you keep this charger, only use the 30 amp setting when the batteries are depleted.  Your new batteries were not 100% charged, but 30 amps was an excessive choice that the Schumacher was too dumb to counteract.  If the sulfur smell in a large room was that strong, they were overcharging, as in my experience the only time one smells sulfur is when the battery voltage is well over 15, and one can hear the bubbling and gurgling of the electrolyte, and the battery is warm to the touch.

This is abusive to the battery.  An EQualization charge is supposed to do this, but EQ charges are only for punch drunk flooded batteries that have 15 or more cycles on them and were not returned to full charge after each cycle.  An EQ charge is abusive, and should not be applied every freaking time the battery is recharged, and I've seen my schumacher do this way too many times when the batteries did not require it.

As far as actual damage and shortened lifespan of the batteries by this Schumacher overcharge, yes there was some positive plate migration to the negative plate.  but golf cart batteries have thicker plates and are designed for hard use and abuse.  You might have shortened their life expectancy by 0.01%.

Now if these were cheap thin plate starting batteries, I'd say a single overcharge event can take 10 to 15% off the lifespan.

So don;t stress it, and do not use the 30 amp setting on those batteries unless you know they are discharged below 80%, and do not leave it unattended.

Get yourself a Digital multimeter.  You can get harbor freight's 3$ version and it is fine for just checking voltages, but If you get a Clamp on AC/DC ammeter, it is also a fully functional multimeter, but you can clamp the meter over one of the wires going to the battery, and see the amps flowing into or out of the battery.

This is a great tool to have, and will help you learn how much electricity devices consume, and when charging can tell you a lot about the condition of the battery as well as the state of charge of the battery.

IE voltage at 14.8 and taking 12 amps, the GC batteries are ~ 85 to 90% charged.
Voltage at 14.8 GC batteries taking only 3.5 amps, batteries are 97%+ charged
Voltage at 16.4v and batteries are taking 15 amps, that damn schumacher has gone batcrap crazy and  is trying to destroy your batteries.

Voltage at 13.4v and taking 30 amps, the Schumacher is at its output limit, the batteries well below 75% , and it will continue putting out 30 amps until voltage risesto  the ~14.5 range, at which point the amps should start tapering, but being a Schumacher it might decide to shoot for 16.4v instead and the batteries will be forced to take 20+ amps until that point.

So I do not trust Schumachers, and I do not recommend people buy them and leave them unattended.  16.4V is Way too high, and forcing 15+ volts if the battery has not had adequate time in the mid 14's is just downright abusive.

If the batteries are hooked to electrical systems when they are forced to 16.4 volts, some electronics might release their magic smoke.

Absorption fridge circuit boards are notorious for frying at 15.4+ volts.

Unless you are sure the Schumacher never goes above 15v, Do not trust it.  I am surprised there has not been a class action suit against Schumacher for the serious overcharging which occurs when a 12v lead acid battery is forced to 16.4 for hours, and i know My Schumacher sc2500a is not the only Schumacher that will goto 16.4v.



Ok better click submit before a magic keystroke make the browser close again and I scare everyone within a mile radius

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I had just spent a half hour typing a response, then hit a back space key or a page down key and shift at the same time and the browser closed.

I seem to recall that this is not the first time you've done this, Stern.

Have you considered typing lengthy replies in WORD and using Cut n Paste to put them in the browser?

This would also allow you to save them for full or partial reuse in the future.

Eventually, if you get enough of them, you might be able to edit and organize them into a Kindle book.  I'd certainly buy a copy.

Regards
John

 

[SternWake]

Yep, not the first time, but usually it goes backwards or forwards and does not just entirely close the browser. I know not what combination of keys causes it.

I've had issues with Cut and pasting from a wordprocessor causing weird issued that took too much effort to sort out, like the first line being so wide that one has to scroll the screen side to side to read it.

There were some lost posts on this forum where I clicked submit, and the post just disappeared and it seems related to having to manually erase the quote of the person who responded above. I Despise the automatic quoting feature, both when responding or reading a thread.

 

[Almost There]

Yep, not the first time, but usually it goes backwards or forwards and does not just entirely close the browser.  I know not what combination of keys causes it.

I've had issues with Cut and pasting from a wordprocessor causing weird issued that took too much effort to sort out, like the first line being so wide that one has to scroll the screen side to side to read it.

There were some lost posts on this forum where I clicked submit, and the post just disappeared and it seems related to having to manually erase the quote of the person who responded above.  I Despise the automatic quoting feature, both when responding or reading a thread.

The 'new reply' button doesn't have the auto quote on it, only the 'reply' button that's at the bottom of the post.

I too have lost long, well thought out responses to posts, here and on other boards. If I knew which combination of keys I hit, I'd share the knowledge. But like you, I have no idea what I did.

Of course, I'm also the one that took months to figure out that it was the heel of my hand getting too close to the control key that was causing the size of my typing to go screwy...   And one second of a computer geek friends time to teach me what keys fixed it.... color me embarrassed...

 

[dogear52]

Thanks again SternWake. The batteries were cold to touch and the smell wasn't too thick (it went away when it went into maintain mode), but I didn't listen for any bubbling. I figured it would be a good idea to get a charger (with engine start feature in case I have a dead truck battery) to maintain the batteries after boosting them up until I hit the road, and by then I'll have a charger you recommended in another post. I should go ahead and get the ammeter before (if) I attempt to charge these again with this charger and closely watch it during charge time.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

When I want to know something about batteries I check Stern Wake's posts. Lots of good info that would surely make an e-book. Some of that info could be "dumbed down" a bit for some of us lamebrains tho.

 

[dogear52]

When I want to know something about batteries I check Stern Wake's posts. Lots of good info that would surely make an e-book. Some of that info could be "dumbed down" a bit for some of us lamebrains tho.

Agreed.....my feeble mind is slowly getting a grip, I think.

 

[dogear52]

SternWake, I ordered the DROK you recommended and should receive it soon. I'm assuming I need to clip the DROK pos wire to the charger pos. wire .... to bare metal on clamp or on the insulated covering of the wire? I looked at quality clamp-on meters but they were out of my price range for now. Also, on the LED strip light power supply device you recommended, I'm assuming I would have to make a set of leads with clamps to the batteries and a power cord for AC outlet? This set up would be preferred over the Schumacher if I decide to return it?

 

[SternWake]

SternWake, I ordered the DROK you recommended and should receive it soon. I'm assuming I need to clip the DROK pos wire to the charger pos. wire .... to bare metal on clamp or on the insulated covering of the wire? I looked at quality clamp-on meters but they were out of my price range for now. Also, on the LED strip light  power supply device you recommended, I'm assuming I would have to make a set of leads with clamps to the batteries and a power cord for AC outlet? This set up would be preferred over the Schumacher if I decide to return it?

lunch break quick reply:

Am rescinding 30 amp LED power supply recommendation.  It has no ability to protect itself from overload, and a depleted battery is an overload waiting to happen.

They can be used, but they are not a tool for the novice, and they require babysitting.

I recommend the Iota DLS 45 or the PD9245 for a set of GC batteries and I am biased toward the PD because one can force it into 3 different voltage modes via the remote pendant.

Those are 3/4 stage chargers, automatic, capable, plug and play.  Not perfect but pretty darn good and will keep the batteries pretty happy when plugged in.  Will also quickly charge them if plug in time is limited.

If the battery read over 12.8 volts when PD or Iota is first plugged in, they will only choose 13.6 or 13.8 volts. W/ The PD one can press a button and have it shoot for 14.4v.  A nice feature as much more amps can flow at higher voltage.  Faster recharging.

if you want more manual control I recommend the MeanWell rsp-500-15.  40 amps, fully protected. but the voltage adjust knob requires a fine touch and jewelers screwdriver. I removed the tiny voltage pot and replaced it with a 10 turn finger twist potentiometer for precise and easy voltage adjustments.  Full disassembly and warranty voiding required for this task.  I have a thread on this forum called 'my newest electrical toy'  from october of last year covering the MW rsp-500-15.

Powermax makes Adjustable voltage models available in 60 amps and up.  Contact Errin directly at powermax through contact info on PM website for these custom made models.  Avoid Randy at best Converter.  He'll tell you that 75 amps is the new 100, even though you paid for 100.

The Shunt for Drok can be located in different places of the (-) cable.  I put mine right on the battery (-) of the Lifeline AGM whose terminal design made this easy, and use the load/source side of the Shunt as a (-) buss.  The red wire can take voltage from anyplace but battery (+) terminal is best.  technically should be fused.  Might want to add an on off switch inline.

Black wire goes to battery side of shunt, Yellow wire goes to load/source side of the shunt.

Calibrating unit might be required.  Mine was pretty good out of the box.

Shunt only measures current flowing in one direction.  if charger is on but ammeter shows 0.0amps then either battery is full full, or you need to reverse black and yellow wires on Shunt.

Meter not good at reading currents below 0.8 amps.  Will read 0.0 when 0.75 amps are flowing.  Not precision, but for less than 20 bucks, a good tool anyway.  Wish it displayed amperage flowing in both directions, but Oh well

Black and yellow wires should be twisted together to help reject interference.  Shunt should be filed flat around bolt holes and threaded recesses where yellow and black wires attach.

Proper ring terminals at Shunt are pretty important.  Crushing wires under the bolts / screws is not acceptable.  the shunt is a precision resistor and any added resistance from poor connections will greatly throw off readings.  Without another tool to verify, you would never know.

Hope you can make it work without too much cursing.  The clamp on Ammeter is looking cheaper now isn't it.  Some can be had for 43$ or so.

I've got a sears craftsman model I like, but no others to compare it to.

 

[dogear52]

Thanks for the new info SternWake. You must type fast! Yeah, I might try to get a clamp on instead if Amazon hasn't committed to the Drok, but I guess it can't hurt to have both. The PD9245 is my next purchase. I'm going to try and take back the Schumacher. Thanks again!

 

[MikeRuth]

I agree with SW on the Schumacher pushing them to hard. I found the same. It wasn't that way 10 years ago with them but it seems as though it is now. Obviously this is in the programming  and their engineer thinks it's best.

for an automatic charger I choose this one and I have been very happy with it's programming.
http://www.amazon.com/Rally-7633-Battery-Maintainer-Microprocessor/dp/B004UR165C

I have used it a few times and so far it has been very close to the numbers we would like to have on a GC2 type battery. Certainly better than Schu,

My  2cents worth.

Mike R

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I recommend the Iota DLS 45 or the PD9245 for a set of GC batteries and I am biased toward the PD because one can force it into 3 different voltage modes via the remote pendant.

Those are 3/4 stage chargers, automatic, capable, plug and play.  Not perfect but pretty darn good and will keep the batteries pretty happy when plugged in.  Will also quickly charge them if plug in time is limited.

If the battery read over 12.8 volts when PD or Iota is first plugged in, they will only choose 13.6 or 13.8 volts. W/ The PD one can press a button and have it shoot for 14.4v.  A nice feature as much more amps can flow at higher voltage.  Faster recharging.

Uh, Stern?

I was reading the literature that comes fro Progressive Dynamics.  They refer to "equalizing" as raising the voltage to 14.4 volts at least once a week for an hour to deal with stratification and help removing sulfation from the plates.

Am I missing something?

Trojan batteries wants an equalizing charge to be 15.5 volts and wants you to check the specific gravity every hour during charging, and only stop when the specific gravity stops rising.

I don't think PD knows what the hell they are talking about, and I don't think you can equalize your FLA batteries with one of these convertors.

Regards
John

 

[highdesertranger]

I agree John that 14.4 seems way low I wonder(hope) it's a misprint. highdesertranger

 

[SternWake]

PD is full of it. What they call equalization is actually destratification. a 15 minute blast to 14.4v will just stir up the electrolyte as the denser acid sinks to the bottom and eats the plates at a faster Rate. The bubbling at 14.4 every 16 hours when 99%+ charged just mixes the electrolyte. Not needed for an AGM battery.

But their marketers determined that equlaization is such an impressive word, to use it incorrectly anyway.

Despite the 14.4 maximum( which is actually 14.56 on my PD9245 unit) the PD allows your to force it to attempt to go this high and will hold it for 4 hours. If you plug in the Iota shortly after driving the surface charge will have battery voltage above 13, and the Iota will see this and just say 13.6v for you, even though the battery would benefit from Iota's 14.8 and the higher amp rate which will flow when that is the set absorption voltage, the max voltage allowed.

Trojans 14.8v Absv recommendation is certainly Valid point, however USbattery allows a 14.4 t o 14,7 at 77F.

The Key is the actual time at absorption voltages. It takes longer for the battery to get to 14.8 than 14,4 so amps taper later, and charging happens faster.

The 14.8v at the charger can also be just 14.6v at the battery, depending on Wire.

I'd still feel fine charging Trojan t015s on the PD9245's 14.4v, just because You can force it to goto 14.4v whenever you want and ultimately it is the time at or near absorption voltage which does the job, just as much as a higher absorption voltage might shorten the time to reach full SG, or indeed 14.4 might just be too low for any particular battery, especially if it is cold.

Generally when recharging at these higher rates, the battery does not require the same absorption voltage or durations as when the lower and slower solar ramps up power till noon then back down .

The Iota just chooses a voltage to shoot for and you are along for the ride, unless you go to efforts to trick it by starting it only after loading the battery until voltage drops below 12.4?. i am not sure of the exact initial voltage required to get wither unit to automatically go for its maximum voltage.

A true equalization is 15.5 to 16volts. If 15.5v can do it, great, but often taking it to 16 can get a higher SG than 15.5, , or just take less time to max it out.

Truly equalizing a flooded battery is a task. One needs a charging source capable of providing enough amperage to get a battery upto 16V after a regular 'full charge' At least 6 amps per 100AH of capacity will be required.

A charger which allows one to choose to apply an Equalization charge cycle is a beautiful thing.

My meanwell rsp-500-15 can do 19.23v cranked all the way up.

Those cheapo LED power supplies can do 15.3 or so, but again, have no self protection features.

A megawatt does have protection features:
http://www.12voltpowersupplies.us/

Some report that the Megawatts can do 15.53 volts.

One can also reprogram their solar controller to goto 16 volts, or bypass the controller and hook the panel right to the battery to attempt for 16V when an EQ is required.

I prefer just spinning the Dial on my meanwell rsp-500-15. I can also just change the voltage so that a certain amount of amps are flowing, but this requires some monitoring to keep a steady amp rate.

Remember all these chargers are a compromise, none of them are perfect for any battery at every temperature at every state of initial charge.

The Hydrometer is the Lie detector on a flooded battery. One can easily attain fully charged resting voltages but the Sg can be 40 points low.

When each discharge cycle starts at 1.280 SG, the person watching their voltmeter during discharge will notice much higher voltage than when the discharge cycle began at 1.245

The longer the electrolyte goes without returning to ~1.275, the harder it is to get it back up there with the inevitably required Equalization cycle. More time and higher voltages are required.

My group31 USbattery was a masochist. it required~ 3 hours at 14.9v, then an hour or 2 more at 15.3v for the SG to get within .005 of baseline maximum., and a 16V session was required every 14 to 16 deep cycles when recharged by low and slow solar only.

Higher amp sources applioed even briefly in the morning, such as the alternator or Meanwell, required less time at extreme voltages to max out the SG and could extend the 16v EQ sessions to every 30 days

I got close to 500 cycles to 50% depth of discharge on that battery but if I didn't figure out its masochistic tendencies it would not have made it 150.

The Drok combo Volt/ammeter is hardly perfect either, however it is very revealing as to where the battery is at when charging.

If the battery is still taking a lot of amperage, at any voltage, it is far from fully charged. So it is nice to have a charger capable of high amperage, and one which allows one to press a button and send the charger to its highest allowed voltage.

When the Ammeter/ voltmeter, and Hydrometer are used to test/monitor a battery as it charges, the battery depleter can, with a capable charger and some effort, ensure their batteries are actually getting fully charged, rather than just believe the soothing, but lying, blinking green light.

A battery returned to full charge as often as possible will greatly outlive the battery taken only to 92-95% after every discharge. A lot of people choose to believe the 92% green light, and still get respectable life from their batteries, as 92% is a heck of a lot better than 85%. 85% is really about the maximum a nightly cycled 50% battery can get to when driven the next day, via alternator only, unless one drives more than 3 hours a day. A few weeks at 85% or less, and a nightly cycled battery is punch drunk, and will stumble around for another couple dozen cycles, and have a hemorrhage at some point.

An alternator blast in the morning and solar for the rest of the day makes for a happier battery than one just seeing solar alone. The person who gets to plug in all the time and lets their converter do its thing, never need to worry as their batteries rarely are cycled and have all the time in the world to recharge.

 

[dogear52]

I took the Schumacher back to Walmart for a refund....no problem. While looking at the PD 9245 on Amazon I noticed the cheaper priced Powermax PM3 35amp for $102 and 45amp for $114 and got on their website for more info. I noticed the Boondocker series and read that the PM3 series would no longer carry a warranty if used for RVs. I emailed them to verify/clarify. The Boondockers weren't a whole lot more in price and carried a 3 yr warranty. SternWake, I remember you mentioned this brand as a good option. Any thoughts on these vs the PDs? Sorry, I don't know how to post a link.

 

[SternWake]

The powermaxes have strange charge algorithms.  Once they get the battery to 14.4v, it drops the voltage to 13.8v, and charging slows to a crawl.


It is better to hold the battery up at 14.4v for 2 to 4 hours.

The powermax is fine if you have a long time in which to have grid power.

The PD is better because you can hold 14.4v as long as you want via the pendant.

I am not impressed with powermax's business model.

They do sell a 100 amp adjustable voltage model.  I talked my friend into ordering one through randy at best converter.

When it arrived, it maxed out at 75 amps.  Sent it back, and a Non adjustable 100 amp model was sent out.  Much later the 100 amp adjustable model  finally arrived and tested at 94 amps, close enough.  The 100 amp model was 1.5 inches longer and heavier than the 75 amp model that had a 100 amp sticker.

So either they were trying to pass off 75 amp models as 100's or there was a large mistake, as i am not the only one who tested their unit and found it did not meet its rated amperage and paid to ship it back

Randy as Best converter tried to tell me the 2 large Northstar AGM batteries depleted to 50% could not accept more than 75 amps.  Absolute freaking BS, the two batteries could have accepted 200 if it could have been provided. He told someone else who only got 75 amps from a 100 amp stickered unit to 'just roll with it'

The powermaxes one buys on amazon are only 14.4v.  The ones bought through best converter do 14.6v, I now hear they have another model which does 14.8v.

Until they get their act sorted out, I can't recommend them.  I do like that they offer an adjustable voltage manual model, but getting 75 amps from a supposed 100 amp charger is not right. There are also power factor corrected in the high amp flavors. which means it is just more efficient. A PD9275 requires a 20 amp outlet, the powermax 100 amp requires only a standard 15 amp household outlet.

The powermax CEO then went on Rvnet and basically told everybody who was badmouthing his product to F off. Would of been better if he actually said why some units were sent out mislabelled and that they corrected it, but he had a hissy fit instead and accused everybody of not understanding anything.

Such a Shame. I was hoping he was going to step up and perhaps offer an adjustable voltage model with a timer and a temperature sensor.

 

[dogear52]

Hmmm.....that doesn't sound good....another roll of the dice I guess. I'll just have to pick up a cheap but dependable charger thru Amazon just to maintain these batteries until I leave and can afford the PD9245 since I need to also get the clamp on meter. Thanks again SW.

 

[SternWake]

USBbattery dictates a 13.06v float voltage.

While 13.2v is not going to kill the battery, most chargers float flooded batteries at 13.2.

That 23$ 30 amp LED power supply i do not recommend for novices, can easily float these batteries at 13.06V, and hold you over until you can afford the PD9245.

http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Reg...d=1436340169&sr=8-4&keywords=12v+power+supply

That link is the one I bought, and sacrificed to science by letting it loose on a depleted battery. I dialed it upto 14.7v, plugged it into a depleted group31 battery, and it smoked at minute 17 and amperage had increased to 41 amps when the magic smoke escaped.
You do have to provide it with A 120V power cord, and the output leads to the batteries, and adjusting the little voltage potentiometer will require a small flat head screwdriver, and a fine touch. They are very compact units, and at 23$ are not going to break the bank.

Don't fear setting up the Drok Ammeter either It is a great learning tool, and if you use it with the unrecommended 30 amp power supply, you can make sure to keep it to less than 30 amps by turning the voltage dial. My power supply handled 36 amps fine and handled it for over an hour. At 36.6 amps it buzzed. it did not like buzzing.

As long as they are kept below 30 amps they are fine, but plug it into a depleted battery and ask for 14.4v+ and it will smoke itself providing 38 amps or more.
Set it to 12.2 then plug it into the battery, and then not much amperage is needed to bring the battery to 12.2..

It is the poor man's manual charger, yet with some monitoring and a little potentiometer twiddling, is a very effective charger.

 

[dogear52]

SternWake, I'm not real confident at this point with hooking up the LED power supply/Drok so I'm leaning toward squeezing the budget and going ahead with buying the PD ($155 + $5 s/h). I'm assuming I wont need the Drok in that case and all I have to do is hook the batteries up to the plugged in PD and go about my business with little to no monitoring? Or should I also use the Drok, or will a clamp on meter (found a Mastech for $40 Amazon) suffice and be easier for a rookie like me to use. Eventually I'd like to have the Drok and clamp on meter in the toolbox but until I hit the road I'm pinching pennies.