DC-only generator/chargers

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I would love a dc only generator  ,  it would b3 nice if the output was
the same as my 75 amp Powermax with adjustable voltage , that 
would be sweet.
As far as i know you'd have to build one.
 
If i were to attempt to build a homemade dc generator i would use 
Honda gx100 engine
1 wire alternator ( needs to have throttle rpms adjusted up at low rpms to prevent stalling )
Also would need something to lower the rpms when the amps output dropped to save fuel.
So there would be something needed that could sense how many amps are
at the output and then automatically adjust rpms up or down as needed.
It may be possible to use the electronics that are on top of the Honda 2000i carberator 
, if so you could use its carb and air cleaner too.
BTW , Honda gx 100 is the motor the Honda 2000i uses
A belt and pulley system because i wouldn't attempt direct drive.
I cant think of anything else

Honda 2000i schematic
 

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lmlisak said:
[quote pid='249925' dateline='1482333065']
Hello John
 personally am looking for the same thing... So I would buy the  "off the shelf" generator, and buy a switch mode power supply for the battery... You can pm me for  my ideas.
Thanks. 
L

[/quote]

I would prefer to publicly discuss these matters which are on topic, unless you have some information that you don't want to broadcast for whatever reason. 

In particular I'd be interested if you have experience with any of the specific models available along the lines I outlined, or have reason to believe one vendor in particular is better than the others. So far everything sure does look expensive compared to a DIY approach.
 
Yes those small Honda GX Motors do look very nice. However I don't think they are designed for very long term Duty Cycles and I suspect require pretty high RPM to get anywhere near the rated horsepower. In my Googling, I hear a lot of very good things about Subaru Robin and Kubota makes a very nice little diesel that truckers use in their APU, but apparently are very robust run for tens of thousands of hours without needing anything except the oil changes and can be run at very low RPM, maybe not as quiet as the Honda kit but I find a very low slow throbbing sound to be much more bearable than the high-pitched whine of a fast motor.

If I were to go with the lightweight fast Little Engines like that, another thing to look at is the ultra cheap Chinese knock-offs, apparently sometimes you get lucky and find one that does last a long time, and while I'm experimenting I may just find I need to go to a different size or something, being a hundred and fifty or $200 out of pocket makes those mistakes a bit less painful.

Taking this to an extreme, you can pick up small engine mowers and log splitters at cetera around here for next to nothing comma sometimes a very high quality engine is mounted on the older ones. I have a neighbor with a rototiller running an old Briggs & Stratton from 30 years ago starts up first pull every time.
 
I have several small engines. from 2hp to 6hp. Briggs and Honda. if I have something someone needs let me know and I could bring it to RTR. highdesertranger
 
I would think that you would be able to buy a dc generator brand new for a decent price and come out ahead because it would take a awful lot amount of time to engineer one.
As far as diesal goes i know nothing about that.
I'll be watching this thread , probably going to be a good one.
Good luck
 
I find this thread and topic interesting.


It is said that each 25 amps the alternator produces requires 1 horsepower.

So one must consider the size of the battery bank in this equation.  

Also the Voltage the alternator is seeking by the voltage regulator controlling the field will have a huge affect on the amount required by the battery bank.

So I would be thinking an externally regulated alternator, with an Adjustable voltage regulator.

Also considerations are the alternator itself. Like my 50/120 chrysler is supposed to be able to make 50 amps at idle and 120 spinning faster, and it does appear to be able to do this, when cold, but hot my engine idles at 550 rpm and output seems to max out at about 42, but at 800 rpm this shoots to 65amps, and 120 amps cannot happen until 2800 rpm or higher.

My single 90AH AGM battery when depleted has sucked up 106 amps, that is the highest i have seen from it, and my engine at 2000 rpm requires 12.2 amps to run the fuel pump and ignition, right near that 120 amp rating claimed by chrysler.

I wound up bypassing the voltage regulator in my engine computer, and use an external voltage regulator, which has a trimpot inside to adjust target voltage. I snipped this potentiometer off and wired it up to a potentiometer I keep on my dashboard, next to my voltmeters and Ammeter which reads total alternator current.

When my battery is depleted, dialing the voltage from 13.2 upto 14.7v changes the note of the cold  engine greatly as the total alternator output goes from 22 amps to 64 amps.

So the engine spinning an alternator needs to be able to handle the load the alternator and depleted batteries can put on it.  The field current which controls how much the alternator makes must also be accounted for.  The max field Current I have seen is about 7 amps, but that was not during the 120 amp outputs.  I've not fully tested every situation. 
 My Ammeter reading total alternator current on my Dashboard is fairly new.  My battery monitor however has been in place for 10 years now, It displays not total alternator amperage, but amps into or out of battery, and I have seen that ammeter display 106 amps into my battery at about 3200 engine rpm when cold.

Just as an FYI, my adjustable voltage alternator regulator is a Transpo540HD, which can be found on Ebay for 25$.

I think that a direct driven alternator should be externally regulated controlled by an adjustable voltage regulator to eek out maximum performance, and dial in a DC generator to the engine, and battery bank.

The Ammeter is always invaluable when battery charging, and this one requires no shunt:

https://www.amazon.com/bayite-Digit...e=UTF8&qid=1482445336&sr=8-3&keywords=ammeter
 
John

my thinking is... Get the generator or your choice.

 I would purchase a weather resistant box, for a multi-stage charger...
Hoffman is a brand...metal and kinda heavy. Plastic boxes are available, and just as durable.

 Get an ac flanged inlet for the connection to the generator... An Anderson dc connector pair for the output to the battery bank.

Make a cable set with those Anderson. Connectors.
Get two fan filters to accommodate the cooling, and mount accordingly.
Leds for visual indication of input/output.
You want to be fancy...get a outdoor dryer vent cover to keep  rainout for the filters

 I am not mechanically inclined... So the other approaches for alternators "do not compute" with me... I would shop for all the components and assemble.
 
for somthing like this for my self I would want to go big or go home.
get 2-4 of these
http://www.ceniehoff.com/productdet...CatID_E_243_A_productID_E_1463_A_skuID_E_1211
if your richer than god get 4 of these
http://www.ceniehoff.com/productdet...CatID_E_276_A_productID_E_1484_A_skuID_E_1230
I would use 3 inch wide pully's on these beasts. hook them up in parralle feed them into this
http://sterling-power.com/collectio...cts/alternator-to-battery-chargers-up-to-400a
this is the largest and only dc battery charger device I have been able to find. really wish they would do one that could handle up to 3000 amps continuious.
 
Find the limits of the limitations, then perhaps settle for a happy medium.

I now have a hankering for an 430 amp alternator that requires a 3 inch belt, and a 14 Hp engine just to run it.
 
SternWake said:
I find this thread and topic interesting.

It is said that each 25 amps the alternator produces requires 1 horsepower.

In my googling I've seen more like 2 HP per 1000 watts, not sure how that converts, but seems pretty close, maybe a bit optimistic compared to (attempts at) commercial turnkey implementations of the concept.


> So one must consider the size of the battery bank in this equation.  

And usage patterns, how many hours per day you're willing to run the jenny, bank longevity. . .


> Also the Voltage the alternator is seeking by the voltage regulator controlling the field will have a huge affect on the amount required by the battery bank. So I would be thinking an externally regulated alternator, with an Adjustable voltage regulator.

Absolutely! To really optimize the various trade-offs comma the more control over the output the better. Best I have come across so far is a guy who has a fully programmable set up based on Arduino, and he has released the software as open source!


> Also considerations are the alternator itself. Like my 50/120 chrysler
...
I wound up bypassing the voltage regulator in my engine computer, and use an external voltage regulator, which has a trimpot inside to adjust target voltage. I snipped . . .

Wow, mind blown!

So maybe for the vandwelling side of things, I might be able to dispense with the engine side of things completely, or at least start of with, using my van engine as the prime mover!

A customized High Output unit replacing the stock alt is very doable, get it set like ambulance setups, maybe a 300A unit that can output 100+A at engine idling RPMs - may require a smaller pulley size on the alt.

Coupled with a sophisticated enough control panel, monitoring and regulating an optimal charging cycle, perhaps letting you choose from different profiles: A is fast as possible minimize engine running, perhaps at the expense of a little bank lifespan, while B gives the longer gentler charge the bank wants. . .

In fact since car engines can be easily set to remote start, let everything be automated, you're in the middle of a heavy screens usage cycle, suddenly the van starts up to keep the bank from dropping below X%.

And if we're running low on milk or propane, maybe it's time to take a break and run into town while the van's running anyway, kill two birds with one stone.

So again wow! Thanks both for the inspirational glimpse at new possibilities, and those very relevant hard-fact details. . .
 
lmlisak said:
John

my thinking is... Get the generator or your choice.

Well that would mean DC only output as efficient as possible ideally low-rpm Kama loud noise, duty cycle designed for reliability over thousands of hours comma ideally under 1 hundred pounds and fits within a couple of square feet.

There are very few vendors with even just a few of those requirements on offer commercially, and they are hugely expensive rarely available secondhand.

And they are usually based on automotive alternators anyway, since that technology is very cost-effective, well proven and very reliable.

The challenge is really on the engine side of things ideally would be a diesel, but the smallest ones weigh over a hundred pounds just for the primary mover side of things , plus generator, starter, electronics, fuel, pretty soon you're at close to 200 pounds and that's a bit much to lug around in a cargo carrier.

Getting a smaller self contained light and quiet AC unit and then running a charger off that would not last for too many hundred hours , may be cheaper up front but likely false economy in the long run.

I think for now I will focus my research on making use of the van engine as above.
 
666JTK666 said:
for somthing like this for my self I would want to go big or go home. get 2-4 of these

Yes, if I was going standalone with a separate prime mover, but with this new direction, I need to get what I need to fit in my very confined engine compartment.

I'm going to inquire with a friend who works with our volunteer ambulance corps to see if they have someone local who does their set up.

There are also people who specialize in quality custom spec'd HO alternators. From my reading so far, this is my list in order of perceived quality

​Excessive Amperage
Singer
DC Power Engineering
Ohio Gen
Mechman

Do some Googling with two or three of these vendors in quotes and you will come across many Forum discussions between people that seem well informed.
 
a couple of points to consider,

idling a v-6 or v-8 to use as a battery charger doesn't seem very efficient to me. now if you are already driving that's a different story.

from my experience those custom high output alternators are not very reliable. note, I don't have any experience with the super high dollar ones. I only have experience with the 200-400 buck ones which are basically souped up factory alternators. highdesertranger
 
The higher in my list there the better the rep, longevity being my key criterion. But yes they do get spendy.

If a stock one that fit could be made to output say 50-70% rating at under 1200 engine idle without interference with the van's normal functioning, that would be nice, but I don't think it's possible.

The ability to avoid carrying another whole engine around:

savings on big up-front cost

one less ongoing maintenance/repair headache and point of failure

freeing up 50-100 lbs load capacity for other stuff (whole family's in the van)

, is to me worth maybe having to do a rebuild or swap of the van engine a bit earlier.

The hugely greater torque available allows even at low rpm the ability to charge faster when desired, fewer hours running per month.

I also plan to maybe do a propane conversion one day, they say that greatly extends the block's life.

Also LOTS quieter while running (very important for me personally) and stealthy, compared to a big genset on a cargo carrier while parked downtown.
 
One thing about the vehicle engine driven alternator, the single V belt and serpentine belt can only handle so much alternator load.

My engine has parallel V belts for alternator and AC compressor, but I do not use the AC. Using two v belts, just for the alternator, the second V belt was either too tight or too loose, even when I bought marched  belts from the same batch.   weird harmonics would develop when one belt started resonating. I now only use one V belt instead, but I only have 90Ah of high$$ AGM capacity,  and the belt can only be maxed out for a short while no matter how depleted.

A huge depleted battery bank, and my single V belt would be inadequate in the extreme.

They say One v belt is only good for so much amperage, and this is true, I can get mine to slip at higher rpms and higher loads, especially when wet/damp with a depleted battery and other loads, like the lights and blower motor on highest speed which alone can suck up 35 amps.

Another consideration is the heat the alternator develops.  I have found that my alternator maxed out, idling, when the engine is already hot, causes alternator temperature to skyrocket.  but the same, or even higher load at highway speed and  engine rpm( ~1900) has the alternator temperature at a mere 120F or so and in no danger. but hot idling maxed out the alternator temp will skyrocket from 120F to 160F in 30 seconds. 220F is the danger zone where they wear considerably faster

My temp sensor is epoxied to the alternator casing and would be closest to Stator temperature, not rectifier temperature which is likely hotter has more of an effect on output.  So my Data could certainly be more accurate if I moved the sensor to the rectifier.

One can use an external rectifier:

https://alternatorparts.com/quicktifier-external-bridge-rectifier.html

And keep much of the heat from the alternator and increasing its lifespan,and output, although on some marine forums the reported output increase is disappointing.

Another option is dual alternators, perhaps the secondary unit dedicated for house battery.  I am not sure how best to combine the outputs of two alternators under one voltage regulator, the issues arising once absorption voltage is reached, which can be quickly with high amperages and not so huge battery capacities.

Here is a link on how I tricked the engine computer voltage regulator and wired up the external adjustable voltage regulator on my 89 dodge.

 https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-Your-Vehicles-voltage-regulator?highlight=voltage+regulator

I will not Idle just to recharge, but I do want the most effective use of my alternator when the engine is running, when  I am moving from A to B.    Cold idling when first started I max out at 62 amps and am good for about 12 to 15 minutes before stator temps exceed 160F, but amps will have tapered to 46 max by then, at hot idle, and 8.2 amps are going into powering the fuel pump, ignition and alternator field.

The high amps of the alternator does not address the fact that 80% to 100% requires 3.5 hours, minimum, at absorption voltage, so my VR modification, will keep the time to achieve 100% when driving to a minimum, the time to 100% cannot be accomplished in less than 3.5 hours from 80%, no matter what.  but 3.5 is so much better than 8 or 10 or 16 which might be the case if the vehicles VR decided 13.6 is not only fine, but dandy as well.  

I raise a violent, hate filled middle finger to automatic charging sources determining which is just fine and dandy.




And that 100% recharge is Key not only to maximizing battery longevity and performance, it is also key to keeping that time span from 80 to 100% from increasing from 3.5 hours at best, to 2x that duration when the battery becomes sulfated.  When a sulfated battery does not get this extra time at absorption voltage, its usuable capacity just declines that much faster and hail mary attempts to restore capacity require more effeort and the results of extended EQ charges less likely to be successful.

So battery longevity is a trade off, No sense in idling for 4 hours to reach that 100%, when Solar can do the dinal 3.5 hours silently, on a good day.  No sense in spending 100$ in fuel to promote battery life by 50$ worth of usage, if one can simply replace  quality batteries at their convenience.


Battery longevity is a balanacing act, Reaching true 100% is important, but it need not be accomplished every single recharge cycle, but the more it is, the better.  But 100% should be considered mandatory, at least every so many deep cycles, unless one can afford to simply view batteries as disposable.  Is 100 deep cycles acceptable on the prroly kept battery,  where as the well kept battery can achieve 500 cycles and the very well kept battery can achieve 800 deep cycles?

Many influencing factors to the actual numbers.  Lead Acid is User friendly, but for the need to achieve 1005 and the actual time required for it to get to a true 100%, and the fact that this time cannot be reduced. 80% to 100% takes 3.5 hour minimum. gettint to 80% can be accomplished quickly with a high amp charging source.

Your strategy is up to you, but that 100% recharge is a hinge point in battery life, the time to reach 100% is where enough solar wattage really pays for itself, especially when  high amp alternator can get the batteries above 80% and the solar can then take over and finish the low amps for 6 hours to near or attain that true 100% state of charge.


Some Might choose to simply kill a battery quickly by improper recharging,  and use the warranty to get a new battery..
 I equate this as driving a new car into  the ocean at low tide,  and expecting the dealer to give you a new car soon as you can tow it to the dealer.

I find it so surprising that the car dealer/ battery retailer actually has no choice but to warranty the first murdered battery.



If one decides that usig the main engine and idling to recharge is the course they want to seek, i recommend engineering a cold air intake for the alternator, forcing ambient temperature air against the alternator to keep it cool. 
Whether the particular engine enjoys or depises idling for extended times is an unknown variable and platform specific.

Everything is a trade off, Knowing the variables and the results of changing those variables should be quantified to come out with an acceptable result.

Refining the data requires measuring tools to collect the data, experimentation, and the correct mindset to look beyond internet theory  and folklore.  

This sounds extreme, but having high amperage get the batteries to 80% and then lower amperage sources like Solar to finish off the job where low currents for 4 + hours can complete the task of reaching or simply nearing 100%, can mean the difference in replacing their batteries at 3 months, or three years.

One will often hear of someones system and  methods and how it is still going strong, or just fine, but most only know something is wrong when battery capacity has declined to the point it cannot meet their overnight needs, and 'just fine' simply means that day could be tomorrow, but today is still going strong.  When just fine, no longer is, seems to shock many with the abruptness at which it occurs.

I love the ideal of a DC generator, and a capable alternator feeding huge amps into a depleted battery bank.  but once that bank gets to absorption voltage at high amps, the amount of amps that bank can accept starts declining, and that rate of declines the closer it gets to 100%.

No way around this fact, and  with lead acid batteries, achieving that 100% is so important for battery longevity and continued performance.

Lifepo4  batteries are different, and I defer to others on their proper recharging and implementation as I have no personal  experience with them.  In general they can charge faster, with less tapering as they approach full and can take advantage of a fast spinning cool alternator much much better than lead acid, and will not be damaged  by not reaching full charge on every recharge cycle.  They could very well wind up costing more initially, but be more reliable and longer lasting  and Ultimately cheaper, than refining a charging system around maximizing the lifespan of lead acid batteries, which require that 100% recharge as often as possible.
 
Merry Christmas all!

SternWake said:
One thing about the vehicle engine driven alternator, the single V belt and serpentine belt can only handle so much alternator load.
Excellent point. So many reasons to have full control over that load, hopefully other solutions can be found. I wish vans had PTOs like tractors :cool:

I had a neighbor in rural Australia used an old Beetle to drive a jenny or his waterpump, jacked it up, removed a rear wheel and ran a big pulley. OT but cool memory. . .

> My engine has parallel V belts for alternator and AC compressor, but I do not use the AC. Using two v belts, just for the alternator, the second V belt was either too tight or too loose, even when I bought marched  belts from the same batch.   weird harmonics would develop when one belt started resonating. I now only use one V belt instead, but I only have 90Ah of high$$ AGM capacity,  and the belt can only be maxed out for a short while no matter how depleted.

Sorry what do you mean by that last?

A huge depleted battery bank, and my single V belt would be inadequate in the extreme.

They say One v belt is only good for so much amperage
...
Another consideration is the heat the alternator develops.

> One can use an external rectifier

Yes I've seen some of those discussions, moving all the electronics, diodes etc to a cool position, having well-positioned temp sensors in the regulator feedback loop, scale the load down before any damage point.

Adding efficient fans may help too when stationary.

I wonder how ambulances overcome these issues?

> Another option is dual alternators

No room in my engine compartment unfortunately.


> the fact that 80% to 100% requires 3.5 hours, minimum, at absorption voltage

Ouch, didn't realize that! Good motivation to drive the panels to sunnier locations :cool:

Finding the right cost/value balance is tricky between the different components , getting cheaper batteries allows you to abuse them more. Same with alternators, but if customized is required that's the one needs protecting. I agree scamming warrantees is not an ethical solution.

Of course another available resource in most situations is shore power. May just take getting a little creative about getting cheap access, e.g I'm a good cook. . .

As Elon Musk &co ramp up maybe more options become available, or more cost effective. Including new/cheaper storage. . .

And let's not forget good old conservation, rather than sizing the hardware for peak consumption, accept dialing usage back when the inputs aren't cost-effective. More books less screens, good for the kids anyway.

Just thought of another design approach, separate "levels" of banks, don't let the "core" bank for lower-usage more essential things like lighting, the fridge, work computing and maybe music get depleted by discretionary uses like watching the big screen and kid's gaming. An extreme approach if a more modular approach were affordable, each appliance has its own bank like a laptop, and you prioritize the recharging.


Anyway, thanks so much for sharing your experience and knowledge.
 
This is my current thinking on battery's / charging them and some of my Idea's are probably a little nut's.
Well here goes nothing..
ok 1st thing piss on lead acid batt's The only remotely acceptable lead acid batt are AGM's and thoes are still not good enough.
Also take your super spendy solar panels and gear and go cram it in sideway's a good engine alternator can give you 100's of amps at the touch of a button rain/shine day/night makes no diffrence. For My self I will not waste a single penny on solar.
The only acceptable choice is lifepo4. these battery's can be charged brutaly hard and they give no S$$t's about it as long as the rules are followed.
Option 1, useing prime mover engine to directly drive the charging alternator's.
The practicality of this depends on just how tight and cramped the engine compartment is.
Option 2, useing a powerful hydrolic(I have never been able to spell for beans) pump attached to the prime mover engine and have the charging alternator's run off that. The alternators can then be placed almost anywhere in the veheicle.
Lot's of good things with option 2 witch should be self evident, Con's are that it is one extra bit of tech to fail or break down.
Option 3, use a power generation Trailer. For my self this is what I am going to do.
Build a trailer or purchase a used one, then build an engine stand for my self I am going to use a chevy v6 and use that to drive my precious alternators. (Side note My van is a ford e350 with a tow package) Also this trailer will be my main storage for my 4 20 gal propane tanks(will start with only 1 tank). The trailer will also be an expansion area for battery storage.

By useing this power trailer idea my living space is conserved,safer,quieter ect.
I freely admit that for many this is totally fruit cake overkill. I am an electricty junky and am happy happy happy to pay for all of the above, I want my Air Conditioning, I want my 60 inch bigscreen and my desk top pc with it's 850 watt ps and I want all my gadget's and gizmo's and they all freaking take Gob's of power.
 
"super spendy solar", for the dollars you are proposing to spend you could run a decent size stick and brick house off of solar. don't know where you plan on putting a 60inch TV in a van but where ever you put it I don't think you will be able to sit back far enough to watch it. all that you listed could easily be run off a off the shelf generator and be a lot cheaper. it's your money and you can do what you want but I think you making this way overly complicated. my 2 cents. highdesertranger
 
I am looking to put in a large screen for movie nights with the kids, working on a drop-down mount design, but another thread.

I doubt if even 48" would fit. And if it means I need a trailer dedicated to Power, we'll make do with something smaller. :cool:

Also don't know about the hydraulic pump idea, wouldn't that take up as much room in the front? I really think best I can do is Maybe make room for a single large-frame alt replacing the stock one.

But if I need to make to with the stock form factor, a custom unit that can output 250A at low engine RPMs, for say a couple hours a day, reliably* for years, is a limitation I can live with.

* given proper temp/output monitoring & custom charge cycle regulation
 
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