Confused, need basic electrical help

[cinemaphonic]

Hey guys,

I've been trying to read about electrical for a while and I can't seem to get my head around what I need for a basic set up. I don't have too much to spend, I'd say probably $300-$500. I think the problem is that now I've convinced myself after all my research that I need to invest over $1000 in a set up.

What would you guys recommend within my budget? I just need power for led lights and a standalone fantastic fan. In addition I'll need to charge my macbook pro. I'm planning on running it off of battery power and charging it when it dies this way I don't need to buy an expensive pure sine inverter. I'll also buy a DC adapter for the mac for when I do need to run it off battery power.

I guess what I'm looking for is a basics list. Obviously I know I need the batteries, but what kind of meter should I get for maintenance?

Also, if I can manage to run everything off DC power, do I need to get an inverter? And if I do choose to get an inverter do I really need to invest a lot in it if I won't be running the mac off the inverter, but DC power instead?

If I choose to get a portable solar panel can I theoretically run the mac right from the solar panel?

Can i run DC equipment and an inverter off the same battery bank? If so, how?

I just have so many questions. Honestly, if one of you would be willing to work with me and guide me through this personally (over email or chat or text) I would be willing to compensate you for your time via paypal. I'm just totally lost.

Thanks.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The very first question you need to answer is how much/often do you plan to drive and how much time do you plan to spend sitting in one place without moving?

There are a couple of different ways to do this on the cheap.

Replace your engine battery with a marine battery ( which will start you vehicle just fine, and tolerate semi-deep discharges a lot better than a a regular car battery could ) and buy one of those starter jump packs as insurance. Run everything off that marine battery via the vehicles lighter/power plug. This option depends on you doing enough driving to replace the electricity you use via the vehicle alternator.

Leave your engine battery alone. Put a marine battery in as a house battery. Run an 8 or 6 gauge wire between the two batteries hot terminals. Fuse the wire on both ends. Use either one of those manual battery switches, or a continuous duty solenoid to control when the two batteries are isolated and when they are combined. Oh, and either ground the house battery to the vehicle frame or run a separate wire between the negative terminals of the two batteries. This option also depends on doing enough driving to recharge the house battery.

Put a marine battery in as a house battery. Buy one of those 100 watt renology solar kits from Amazon that everyone is always talking about here. Mount the controller somewhere close to the house battery. Rig up some way to plug the panel in to it's input via a heavy, not too long extension cord and set the panel outside when you are parked and the sun is shining.

Ideally, if you can swing the $ to do it, combine options 2 and 3.

Regards
John

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Also, if I can manage to run everything off DC power, do I need to get an inverter? And if I do choose to get an inverter do I really need to invest a lot in it if I won't be running the mac off the inverter, but DC power instead?

If I choose to get a portable solar panel can I theoretically run the mac right from the solar panel?

There is no reason to buy an inverter unless you need to run something that you can't run directly off of dc.

Some stuff will run ok off of a modified sine wave inverter, some stuff won't and needs the more expensive pure sine wave inverter. So what kind, and how big an inverter you need ( and how expensive it is ) depends completely on what you are trying to run.

I wouldn't try to run your mac directly off the solar. The solar power will fluctuate as clouds move across the sky. Just plug it in to your house battery, and let the controller feed the solar power into the battery at the same time.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

what kind of meter should I get for maintenance?

If you just want the ability to measure voltage, any good digital multi-meter, like this will do just fine.

If you can swing a little more money, something like this will let you easily monitor amps flowing in different circuits.

BTW, if you can swing a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries as opposed to a marine battery, that would be a far better choice for options 2 or 3. The marine battery is the cheapest way to go, not the best way to go.

Regards
John

 

[Seraphim]

You're pretty much asking the same question we just covered in a recent thread. Reading it should answer most of your questions, I think. Let me find the thread..

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https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=11267

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But +1 on what the Paranoid guy said. You need a battery large enough to cover your daily needs, a way of monitoring battery usage, and a way to recharge the battery. Suggestions were mentioned in the above lnk.

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It'll be a lot easier if you can recharge your laptop at a public receptacle: a library, coffee shop, etc

 

[concretebox]

What would you guys recommend within my budget? I just need power for led lights and a standalone fantastic fan.
Then it doesn't sound like you'll need much power. For a few bucks you can measure the amps your electronics will take. I have one LED strip and it takes 0.1 amps. It's important to take your own readings and not trust the specs on the manufacturer's data sheets.

Add up all the amps you'd use in a typical day, and buy a deep cycle battery with at least twice that number in Amp Hours. For example, if you used 10amps a day, then buy a battery with at least 20amp hours.


In addition I'll need to charge my macbook pro.
Ok, use the DC adaptor you plan on buying and run the engine. Or spend an hour or two at the coffeeshop/library/McDonalds...


I guess what I'm looking for is a basics list. Obviously I know I need the batteries, but what kind of meter should I get for maintenance?
The above linked multimeter is a good start. You'll need a battery as you know. An inexpensive voltage monitor would be good. But one with a low-voltage warning would be great.

A battery hydrometer would be good too. Make sure you also have safety glasses, gloves, basic socket set, screwdrivers, plyers, solder gun, electrical crimp tool. Also plan on buying electrical terminals, medium and heavy gage wires, and fuses. I can't tell you specifically as it will depend on your set up.


Also, if I can manage to run everything off DC power, do I need to get an inverter?
No.

And if I do choose to get an inverter do I really need to invest a lot in it if I won't be running the mac off the inverter, but DC power instead?
No.

If I choose to get a portable solar panel can I theoretically run the mac right from the solar panel?
No. You'd use the solar panel to charge the battery, and the battery powers your lights and the outlet your mac is plugged into. You should do this only when you're sure your battery is full.


Can i run DC equipment and an inverter off the same battery bank? If so, how?
Yes, but the more power you use, the short the amount of time you're batteries will last before they need recharging. You'd run one set of wires from the battery to your DC fuse box, and from the fuse box to your LED lights and 12v outlets. Then you'd run a second set of wires from the battery (the battery terminals can accept many wires at once) to your inverter.

Bottom line, if you can avoid needing an inverter, you're life will be a lot simpler.

 

[akrvbob]

What you need is is ultra simple an so I'm doing that. When you actually get the parts and start doing it then you will have lots more questions, but rather than answer them now, this is what you need to do to get started. A simple shopping list.

1) Go to Amazon and buy this kit:
http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100W-Mono-Starter-Kit/dp/B00BFCNFRM/

2) Go to Walmart and buy a group 29 Maxx Marine battery.

3) Install it all.

4) Get DC adaptors for Mac.

Done!

Ideally you will also charge the Marine battery from the starting battery. Here's how:

1) Go to Amazon and buy this continuous duty solenoid:
http://www.amazon.com/HERSEE-TERMINAL-CONTINUOUS-SOLENOID-24213BX/dp/B00FGJIJR6/

2) Get 4 gauge wire and run it from the starting battery to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the Marine battery in the back of the van.

3) Run a 10 gauge wire from the solenoid to a hot circuit in the van--probably the radio.

4) Ground the marine battery to the frame of the van.

Done.

Both positive lines from the solenoid and charge controller will go onto the positive post of the Marine battery and there is no problem with that. Both have a regulator that will keep from overcharging the van. There is o conflict between them
Bob

 

[Seraphim]

Bob

Always has the solution lol.

Actually, the four panel kit might fit my wants nicely. The panels seem smaller, which is what I need. I may be able to fit four on the TC. At a combined 16 amps (4 per panel) an average two hours of sunlight a day would meet our needs and I wouldn't need an mppt controller.

Do you see any difficulty hooking this into our camper's existing system? Just using two 105ah wet cell batteries.

Always appreciate your input.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

Replace your engine battery with a marine battery ( which will start you vehicle just fine, and tolerate semi-deep discharges a lot better than a a regular car battery could ) and buy one of those starter jump packs as insurance. Run everything off that marine battery via the vehicles lighter/power plug. This option depends on you doing enough driving to replace the electricity you use via the vehicle alternator

Are you guys *sure* you can replace your engine battery with a marine battery and use it for both the starting battery AND house battery? This is the first time I have read of this and if this is correct, its brilliant. Saves having to have a house battery in the living area of the van and saves the hassle of building a box for the battery and venting it outside etc.

So uh.... this is 100% correct?

 

[cinemaphonic]

Can i run DC equipment and an inverter off the same battery bank? If so, how?
Yes, but the more power you use, the short the amount of time you're batteries will last before they need recharging. You'd run one set of wires from the battery to your DC fuse box, and from the fuse box to your LED lights and 12v outlets. Then you'd run a second set of wires from the battery (the battery terminals can accept many wires at once) to your inverter.

Bottom line, if you can avoid needing an inverter, you're life will be a lot simpler.

Thank you so much for the info. How safe is it to use a 4 port DC outlet like this?: http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-4-Way-A...im_auto_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0NKD6XJWN76EPK7THDX9

Since it connects with a cig charger i'm guess I'd have to buy a female cig charger that can clamp to the battery. Do I need to worry about wire gauge in this case?

---

1) Go to Amazon and buy this kit:
http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100W-Mono-Starter-Kit/dp/B00BFCNFRM/

2) Go to Walmart and buy a group 29 Maxx Marine battery.

3) Install it all.

4) Get DC adaptors for Mac.

Done!

Thanks very much Bob. One thing I'm unsure about is how does the solar panel connect to charge the battery(ies)? Do I need to connect the solar panels to a 3-stage charger then to the battery?

---

Ideally you will also charge the Marine battery from the starting battery. Here's how:

1) Go to Amazon and buy this continuous duty solenoid:
http://www.amazon.com/HERSEE-TERMINAL-CONTINUOUS-SOLENOID-24213BX/dp/B00FGJIJR6/

2) Get 4 gauge wire and run it from the starting battery to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the Marine battery in the back of the van.

3) Run a 10 gauge wire from the solenoid to a hot circuit in the van--probably the radio.

4) Ground the marine battery to the frame of the van.

Also, I'm a bit confused about this part. What does the solenoid do? Will it affect the starting battery when the van isn't running, or will I have to disconnect the starting from the house when using house power? Thanks.

 

[concretebox]

It should be perfectly safe, it's fused so it's not going to catch fire.
Did it say what the fuse is? 10amp? 15amp? I wouldn't put a bigger fuse in then whatever it comes with. Check your laptop DC charger, how many amps does it need?


Instead of buying a 12volt outlet (cig charger) and clamping it to the battery what you can do is cut that plug off and run the wires through the firewall directly to the battery. If you buy something like this:http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-Solderl...15758477&sr=8-3&keywords=electrical+terminals
you won't have to solder. Crimp on some ring terminals and you can screw then onto the battery. That will be a much better connection.

If you do that be sure to use that multimeter to determine which wire is positive. I can tell you more about that if you're interested.

You might also want to install a switch. This you can use crimp on terminals too.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...d-keywords=12v switch&sprefix=12v+swi,aps,399

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Are you guys *sure* you can replace your engine battery with a marine battery and use it for both the starting battery AND house battery? This is the first time I have read of this and if this is correct, its brilliant. Saves having to have a house battery in the living area of the van and saves the hassle of building a box for the battery and venting it outside etc.

So uh.... this is 100% correct?

Well, check the specs on marine batteries. For example, I went to Sears.com and searched on group 24 marine batteries. I found a Die Hard marine battery that had 550 CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) That's the number of amps the battery can supply to a starter at 0 degrees F.

There is one downside to this, though. Marine batteries are only waranteed for 12 months instead of the 48 or 60 or whatever that regular car batteries are . . .

Regards John

 

[cinemaphonic]

Is there a reason I shouldn't just buy a bunch of lithium batteries instead and charge with a solar unit and the car when driving? This seems much much easier and around the same cost of everything it seems like I'm going to need.

These are $99 each and provide 20K mah:

http://www.amazon.com/20000mAh-Mult...d=1415763072&sr=1-2&keywords=portable+battery

supposedly they provide 1 laptop charge. I guess the other question is how long would it take a 100w solar panel to charge one of these?

 

[concretebox]

Interesting idea. I would have never thought of that. If you wired a 100w solar panel to a fused 12v outlet, then you could plug one of these batteries in, charge it in about 3 hours (in optimum conditions), then unplug it and start charging another one.

A big plus of this is you can keep the batteries anywhere. Plus they're no maintenance. But how are you going to power lights with these?

 

[cinemaphonic]

Interesting idea. I would have never thought of that. If you wired a 100w solar panel to a fused 12v outlet, then you could plug one of these batteries in, charge it in about 3 hours (in optimum conditions), then unplug it and start charging another one.

A big plus of this is you can keep the batteries anywhere. Plus they're no maintenance. But how are you going to power lights with these?

I was thinking low wattage LED lights that can hook up via USB. I've seen several.

This one is actually an LED panel and a battery bank:
http://www.amazon.com/YJ-10000A-Por...qid=1415765067&sr=8-23&keywords=usb+led+panel

I know that there's still a lot to be learned about the Lithium batteries, especially the 12v ones need a lot of maintenance. However, my power needs are pretty minimal. I think this may be a good way to get myself on the road without having to invest too much time money and weight.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

With this... http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0045XRK06/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1415765359&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40

 

[cinemaphonic]

With this... http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0045XRK06/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1415765359&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40

yep, saw that one too.

 

[akrvbob]

Most people over-think this thing, confuse themselves, then they are paralyzed. If they can't know everything right now, they do nothing.

You don't want lithium batteries. The learning curve is a nightmare! Much too complicated for me and I couldn't help you at all if you did. Few people can.

Everything you need for solar is in the kit. Buy it, follow it's instructions, and you are done. When you get that far we'll lead you through the installation. The solar controller is the charger.

The solenoid will automatically disconnect the house and starting battery from each other when the ignition key is turned off. That keeps you from accidentally discharging your starting battery. When the key is turned on, it will automatically re-connect them so the house battery is charged.

Don't connect anything directly to the solar panel or controller. Everything should come off the battery.
Bob

 

[akrvbob]

There is no problem replacing our starting battery with a large marine battery. Whenever the starting batteries in my rigs die, I replace them with marine batteries.

However, most people should NOT use the starting battery as their house batteries. It's not worth the risk of being left stranded.

I've know a few people who used so little power they did use the starting battery as the house battery also.

But, those people are few and far between. Nearly everyone should set up a separate marine house battery.

Why a marine battery and not a good deep-cycle. Because most people wreck their first house battery so you want to wreck the cheapest one you can find.
Bob

 

[cinemaphonic]

Most people over-think this thing, confuse themselves, then they are paralyzed. If they can't know everything right now, they do nothing.

You don't want lithium batteries. The learning curve is a nightmare! Much too complicated for me and I couldn't help you at all if you did. Few people can.

Everything you need for solar is in the kit. Buy it, follow it's instructions, and you are done. When you get that far we'll lead you through the installation. The solar controller is the charger.

The solenoid will automatically disconnect the house and starting battery from each other when the ignition key is turned off. That keeps you from accidentally discharging your starting battery. When the key is turned on, it will automatically re-connect them so the house battery is charged.

Don't connect anything directly to the solar panel or controller. Everything should come off the battery.
Bob

I hear you Bob, and you're right, I did freeze. The prospect of the lithium batteries is tempting, however, after doing some calculations I don't think it is within my price range to do it this way right now. However I may pick up one or two of these things at some point for back up.

I'm building an Amazon shopping list right now and trying to figure out what I need. I've been running through what I'll need power for and I think it will just be my 85W macbook, cell phone charging, canon camera and hero pro battery charging, led lights (probably no more than 10 watts, hopefully less), and fantastic fan. Do you think I should get a fuse block, and if so should I also fuse than to a main 80 fuse block?

As I said I'm planning on running everything on DC power, so no inverter needed. I'm guessing I'll need between 4-6 DC outlets, with one being used by a digital voltmeter.

If I can keep costs down I may be able to afford 2 of these walmart maxx deep cycles. Should I plan on hooking them up as a series or parallel?

Thanks again!

 

[One Awesome Inch]

There is no problem replacing our starting battery with a large marine battery. Whenever the starting batteries in my rigs die, I replace them with marine batteries.

However, most people should NOT use the starting battery as their house batteries. It's not worth the risk of being left stranded.

I've know a few people who used so little power they did use the starting battery as the house battery also.

But, those people are few and far between. Nearly everyone should set up a separate marine house battery.

Why a marine battery and not a good deep-cycle. Because most people wreck their first house battery so you want to wreck the cheapest one you can find.
Bob

Very wise. My power consumption would definitely be on the low side. One .5A computer fan for venting (on almost continually to reduce humidity) and a large screen smart phone. Probably would not do much more than that... especially to begin with.