Camper Living
- Thread starter Ballenxj
- Start date
Help Support Van Living Forum:
Canine said:
If you go to a builders supply, they have various choices for metal framing. I tend to gravitate towards metal conduit for straight pieces, and they have corners available too. Simple, bolt together, sturdiness. If I'm doing something with a lot of curves, then I go with easily bendable PVC.
Adding good flashing on both the inside and outside should yield a good leakproof design for many years to come.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2010
- Messages
- 7,706
- Reaction score
- 56
The 12 foot behemoths with 3-4 slides will be over 4000 pounds. The bottom end 8 footers will be 1500 pounds and up, 2400 probably being a decent average. Then you add water and propae and load your stuff in it and you can easily add another 1000 pounds or more. 1500 is more realistic
Newer superlights made from aluminum can get as low as 1200 pounds. Older campers are heavier because they are wood.
No half ton should ever have a full size slide-in camper on it. Personally I wouldn't want less than a 350/3500 1 ton. And then I'd still put airbags on it.
Bob
Newer superlights made from aluminum can get as low as 1200 pounds. Older campers are heavier because they are wood.
No half ton should ever have a full size slide-in camper on it. Personally I wouldn't want less than a 350/3500 1 ton. And then I'd still put airbags on it.
Bob
Brian_and_Jesse
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2015
- Messages
- 208
- Reaction score
- 1
highdesertranger said:
Evening HDR!
I suppose it depends on one's definition of a 'typical RV.'
We drive a 28' 1988 Class A Bounder and we *have* to travel off road often. In the three years we've had the rig, we've had no problems. 'Course, my husband is a professional driver and knows how to maneuver and climb and descend on the very steep grades in these mountains. (City driving is easy, of course.)
I think it depends on the type of shocks, springs, tires, and brakes that one has on one's rig. Ours has heavy-duty everything, and I think that makes a difference. Also, it should be common sense on forest or other backroads to go slowly on washboard or rocky terrain.
Small is good, but it isn't everything!
Shabbat shalom,
Jesse.
Ballenxj
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2012
- Messages
- 3,211
- Reaction score
- 15
akrvbob said:
I'm getting a real education here, thanks.
Let's say you have a three quarter ton truck, and your camper weighs 2400 lbs, to my way of thinking it's over loaded? Then what if you have a trailer, isn't that included in the gross vehicle weight?
Queen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2013
- Messages
- 2,670
- Reaction score
- 7
I looked at the Livin' Lite brand of truck camper, super light all aluminum frame, no wood in it anywhere. Seemed like a nice option but since they got big and got bought I've seen some welds that looked like high school shop class welds, made me wonder how they'd handle flex (pop, pop, pop?).
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2010
- Messages
- 7,706
- Reaction score
- 56
Today's trucks are being built to carry more weight so it really isn't fair to say no 3/4 can carry one. But chances are the truck most of us can afford can't. And it also needs to be said I'm talking full-time. If you only have the camper on it 28 days a year, it's no big deal. If it's on it 280 days a year, you don't want to be overweight. The constant overload is going to cause premature failure on MANY different systems all across the truck. You probably won't have a catastrophic failure, but many parts will fail much sooner than their normal life. It'll nickel and dime you constantly and any more nickles and dimes can still be big bucks.
But I have a prejudice to always have too MUCH truck instead of too little so others will probably disagree.
Bob
But I have a prejudice to always have too MUCH truck instead of too little so others will probably disagree.
Bob
Canine
Well-known member
I've used pickups from half ton to three quarter to one ton. I've used them extremely hard. If you baby them and go slow, they will last a surprisingly long time. But if you use them on the highway or use them hard, they will fail quickly. Using them hard also means spending more time on maintenance: greasing, checking u-joints, shocks, etc. frequently. If you replace them before they fail, you are ahead of the game by a large margin. If, for example, you don't bother crawling under the truck and physically grabbing onto the shocks and knowing what to look for at least once a week, you might miss a shock ready to break. If it breaks, it can rip out a brake line or push out the mount. Then have fun out in the woods trying to fix it with a welder or trying to bleed the line by yourself.
I had a 65 ford half ton. My friend had a 66 half ton. Both two wheel drives. I got lots of firewood with mine and so did he. We loaded the heck out of those trucks and never had a problem with the rear ends because we went slow when loaded. I broke springs on mine once. It wasn't until my friend put a full size camper on his (lighter than a full load of firewood) and drove it at highway speeds did he have problems. He ate up the bearings in the rear end. He replaced them and 3000 miles later he ate them up again, so he took the camper off.
I had a 65 ford half ton. My friend had a 66 half ton. Both two wheel drives. I got lots of firewood with mine and so did he. We loaded the heck out of those trucks and never had a problem with the rear ends because we went slow when loaded. I broke springs on mine once. It wasn't until my friend put a full size camper on his (lighter than a full load of firewood) and drove it at highway speeds did he have problems. He ate up the bearings in the rear end. He replaced them and 3000 miles later he ate them up again, so he took the camper off.
Canine
Well-known member
Ballenxj,
Go to rv forums and look at truck camper sections, the people posting there will give you solid info on what their trucks carry, modifications needed etc. Bob (host) has given you straightforward reasons, and you'll find that many TC owners with any plumbing prefer one ton duallies over SRW (single rear wheel) trucks. It's the additional stability the duallies give that is so important, not too mention carrying the weight. Those big campers are so tall they lean on curves or when hitting crosswinds and really can give an inexperienced driver concern
.
There are TC's that crank up and thus have a lowered profile than fully hard sided nits, however they are not 4 season rigs due to the canvas in the crank up sections. They are half ton carryable though.
Trucks have gone through quite an evolution in payload ever since the 40's and 50's when the terms 1/4 ton, 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and 1 ton were appropriate descriptions of payload. All this started to change in the 80's and in the mid 2000's things really took off. Today Ford makes a "half ton" F150 that has over 3,000 lbs of payload. :huh: My 1977 GMC 1 ton didn't have a 3,000 lb payload!
From "auto.howstuffworks.com":
"Once you've finally splurged to buy that boat you've always wanted, it may strike you that it's not so smart to lug it around with the old family sedan. Maybe it's time to upgrade to a truck. The question is, "What kind?" Soon after you begin your search, you'll realize that shopping for the right truck can get confusing. When it comes to heavy duty towing and hauling, it's easy to get lost in the sea of terms and safety requirements. The real meaning of "half-ton" pickup, for instance, eludes some automotive folks, let alone first-time truck buyers.
A ton is 2000 pounds (907.19 kg), so does it follow that a half-ton truck weighs 1000 pounds (453.5 kg)? Actually, the name doesn't refer to the weight of the truck. In fact, half-ton pickups weigh much more than that. The weight of a truck without cargo or passengers is called the curb weight. For example, many 2007 half-ton pickups have curb weights between 9000 (4082.3 kg) and 11000 (4989.5 kg) pounds [source: Edmunds].
The "half-ton" description loosely refers to the truck's payload capacity. This means that the truck can carry up to 1000 pounds (453.5 kg) of cargo and passengers in the cab and bed. But wait a minute: If you take a look at the stats on modern half-ton pickups, you'll notice that their payload capacities exceed 1000 pounds (453.5 kg). Although early half-ton pickups could carry max loads of 1000 pounds (453.5 kg), since at least the 1960s, new and improved half-ton pickups have been able to safely carry more, surpassing their namesakes [source: Autotropolis].
But old habits die hard, and the name "half-ton" has stuck around to this day. It's still helpful as a general classification term, differentiating the group from the larger, heavy-duty three-quarter-ton pickups and one-ton pickups (also obsolete terms). A better way to find out the maximum payload capacity is to check the individual truck's specs online or in the owner's manual to see what the manufacturer recommends.
So, don't skip over half-tons because you think you need more capacity -- this name contradicts their real hauling power. Consumer Reports actually warns against buying a truck with more hauling capacity than you need because its higher-capacity suspension will make for a more uncomfortable ride [source: Consumer Reports]. It's also important to note that payload capacity isn't the same thing as towing capacity, which you'll need to consider if you plan to haul a boat or trailer."
End of quote
Bob is correct on TC weights. They are heavy! You also have to remember that is the "dry" weight, without options, batteries, solar, fluids and your personal cargo. All that can push you several hundred to a thousand pounds higher. Same with any trailer or rv.
Lest you think you can blindly accept the manufacturers payload numbers, read this excerpt:
Title: GM changes pickup payload formula to match competitors after complaints
Written Aug 8, 2014 on Yahoo Autos site
"Last week, we told you about a brouhaha among Detroit's pickup builders over the practice used by General Motors and Ford to boost payload ratings by shedding some basic parts. Today, General Motors announced it would no longer use that trick — a move that will make for easier comparisons, but lower payload figures for all of its pickups.
While maximum payload statistics are just one data point in a bushel of numbers truck buyers consider, they're one of the key marketing points dealers use in the fierce battle among Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra, Ford's F-Series line, Chrysler's Ram division and the light-duty pickups of Nissan and Toyota. Only Ford and GM used the practice of setting a published payload figure by "minimum" curb weight — a number that raises the payload figure by deleting items like spare tires or the back bumper.
Ford and GM have defended the practice, saying their customers could order trucks without those features and that they were transparent about the process. While Ford uses the practice only for heavy-duty pickups, GM had applied it to both heavy and light-duty trucks for 2015. Today, GM said it would stop doing so for all 2015 pickups, both light and heavy-duty — and will apply the standard to the upcoming Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon mid-size pickups as well.
"This will make our curb weight and payload specs more consistent with those of most other truck makers, making it easier for customers to compare vehicles," said GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson."
End of quote
So to make it easier, you need to look on the door sticker of the actual truck and find the "payload" capacity listed. Most stickers have this. Otherwise you need to get the vehicle weighed and subtract that from the truck's GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) to see how much "payload" you actually have. Remember that the addition of helper springs or air bags doesn't really increase your real payload, it just keeps the truck from sagging. It doesn't increase the strength of the axles, brakes, what wheel bearings or rims can hold or even what the frame is designed for.
Try to overbuy the truck as you often put more things in it or eventually upsize your TC. You don't need a one ton dually to have an 8' lite TC, but it's a rare half ton that can properly take a 9 footer with water tanks behind the rear axle. Center of gravity also has to figure into your calculations, don't buy a short bed truck and put a long bed camper on it...
Confusing? Yes but we can help you. Oh, do watch your height, there are low clearance bridges out there...
Picture of a low profile TC:
Dusty
Go to rv forums and look at truck camper sections, the people posting there will give you solid info on what their trucks carry, modifications needed etc. Bob (host) has given you straightforward reasons, and you'll find that many TC owners with any plumbing prefer one ton duallies over SRW (single rear wheel) trucks. It's the additional stability the duallies give that is so important, not too mention carrying the weight. Those big campers are so tall they lean on curves or when hitting crosswinds and really can give an inexperienced driver concern
.There are TC's that crank up and thus have a lowered profile than fully hard sided nits, however they are not 4 season rigs due to the canvas in the crank up sections. They are half ton carryable though.
Trucks have gone through quite an evolution in payload ever since the 40's and 50's when the terms 1/4 ton, 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and 1 ton were appropriate descriptions of payload. All this started to change in the 80's and in the mid 2000's things really took off. Today Ford makes a "half ton" F150 that has over 3,000 lbs of payload. :huh: My 1977 GMC 1 ton didn't have a 3,000 lb payload!
From "auto.howstuffworks.com":
"Once you've finally splurged to buy that boat you've always wanted, it may strike you that it's not so smart to lug it around with the old family sedan. Maybe it's time to upgrade to a truck. The question is, "What kind?" Soon after you begin your search, you'll realize that shopping for the right truck can get confusing. When it comes to heavy duty towing and hauling, it's easy to get lost in the sea of terms and safety requirements. The real meaning of "half-ton" pickup, for instance, eludes some automotive folks, let alone first-time truck buyers.
A ton is 2000 pounds (907.19 kg), so does it follow that a half-ton truck weighs 1000 pounds (453.5 kg)? Actually, the name doesn't refer to the weight of the truck. In fact, half-ton pickups weigh much more than that. The weight of a truck without cargo or passengers is called the curb weight. For example, many 2007 half-ton pickups have curb weights between 9000 (4082.3 kg) and 11000 (4989.5 kg) pounds [source: Edmunds].
The "half-ton" description loosely refers to the truck's payload capacity. This means that the truck can carry up to 1000 pounds (453.5 kg) of cargo and passengers in the cab and bed. But wait a minute: If you take a look at the stats on modern half-ton pickups, you'll notice that their payload capacities exceed 1000 pounds (453.5 kg). Although early half-ton pickups could carry max loads of 1000 pounds (453.5 kg), since at least the 1960s, new and improved half-ton pickups have been able to safely carry more, surpassing their namesakes [source: Autotropolis].
But old habits die hard, and the name "half-ton" has stuck around to this day. It's still helpful as a general classification term, differentiating the group from the larger, heavy-duty three-quarter-ton pickups and one-ton pickups (also obsolete terms). A better way to find out the maximum payload capacity is to check the individual truck's specs online or in the owner's manual to see what the manufacturer recommends.
So, don't skip over half-tons because you think you need more capacity -- this name contradicts their real hauling power. Consumer Reports actually warns against buying a truck with more hauling capacity than you need because its higher-capacity suspension will make for a more uncomfortable ride [source: Consumer Reports]. It's also important to note that payload capacity isn't the same thing as towing capacity, which you'll need to consider if you plan to haul a boat or trailer."
End of quote
Bob is correct on TC weights. They are heavy! You also have to remember that is the "dry" weight, without options, batteries, solar, fluids and your personal cargo. All that can push you several hundred to a thousand pounds higher. Same with any trailer or rv.
Lest you think you can blindly accept the manufacturers payload numbers, read this excerpt:
Title: GM changes pickup payload formula to match competitors after complaints
Written Aug 8, 2014 on Yahoo Autos site
"Last week, we told you about a brouhaha among Detroit's pickup builders over the practice used by General Motors and Ford to boost payload ratings by shedding some basic parts. Today, General Motors announced it would no longer use that trick — a move that will make for easier comparisons, but lower payload figures for all of its pickups.
While maximum payload statistics are just one data point in a bushel of numbers truck buyers consider, they're one of the key marketing points dealers use in the fierce battle among Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra, Ford's F-Series line, Chrysler's Ram division and the light-duty pickups of Nissan and Toyota. Only Ford and GM used the practice of setting a published payload figure by "minimum" curb weight — a number that raises the payload figure by deleting items like spare tires or the back bumper.
Ford and GM have defended the practice, saying their customers could order trucks without those features and that they were transparent about the process. While Ford uses the practice only for heavy-duty pickups, GM had applied it to both heavy and light-duty trucks for 2015. Today, GM said it would stop doing so for all 2015 pickups, both light and heavy-duty — and will apply the standard to the upcoming Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon mid-size pickups as well.
"This will make our curb weight and payload specs more consistent with those of most other truck makers, making it easier for customers to compare vehicles," said GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson."
End of quote
So to make it easier, you need to look on the door sticker of the actual truck and find the "payload" capacity listed. Most stickers have this. Otherwise you need to get the vehicle weighed and subtract that from the truck's GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) to see how much "payload" you actually have. Remember that the addition of helper springs or air bags doesn't really increase your real payload, it just keeps the truck from sagging. It doesn't increase the strength of the axles, brakes, what wheel bearings or rims can hold or even what the frame is designed for.
Try to overbuy the truck as you often put more things in it or eventually upsize your TC. You don't need a one ton dually to have an 8' lite TC, but it's a rare half ton that can properly take a 9 footer with water tanks behind the rear axle. Center of gravity also has to figure into your calculations, don't buy a short bed truck and put a long bed camper on it...
Confusing? Yes but we can help you. Oh, do watch your height, there are low clearance bridges out there...
Picture of a low profile TC:
Dusty
Attachments
Canine
Well-known member
Canine said:
So true. The old 66 pickup probably had a 1,000# payload, and subtract from that the weight of driver and other carried stuff... The camper probably weighed (lwhen loaded) in excess of 2,000#... That wasn't what the wheel bearings were engineered for. Brakes either...
Ballenxj
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2012
- Messages
- 3,211
- Reaction score
- 15
You mean like this one? RV.netdusty98 said:
I knew it was the payload in question, and that's why I was curious about what appeared to be obvious over loading.
Thanks Dusty, I really appreciate your explanation here. I didn't know that these trucks are rated at more than their 1/2, 3/4, & 1 ton names implied, causing me quite a bit of confusion.
I've been a member of RV dot net for quite a while now, but was thinking there is a lot of information available here as well. ;-)
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings/forum/27.cfmhttp://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings/forum/27.cfm
Canine
Well-known member
Yep, if you are familiar with rvforum then read a while on the truck camper subsection. Do a search for "payload" in the TC section and check the little box that limits the search to that section only. Then you can read till you be tired.
Be advised that when the posters are talking about their "mods", they can be referring to thousands and thousands of dollars. Just 19.5 inch wheels and tires alone are probably $2K plus. Then there's the rancho adjustable shocks, special tie downs, etc etc etc... We vanners have little in the way of "mods" in comparison. For example, I have none, zero, nada to my old G20. Maybe will get a roof vent someday...woohoo. Here's an example signature line:
'10 Ford F-450, 6.4, 4.30, 4x4, 14,500 GVWR. '06 Host Rainer 950 Dbl Slide, Torklift Talon tiedowns, Glow Steps, and Fastguns. Firestone Air Bags, Hankook DH-01 225/19.5 Fs, Curt front hitch, Energy Suspension bump stops.
Oh, this image didn't copy to my long post from before. Watch those clearances!
Be advised that when the posters are talking about their "mods", they can be referring to thousands and thousands of dollars. Just 19.5 inch wheels and tires alone are probably $2K plus. Then there's the rancho adjustable shocks, special tie downs, etc etc etc... We vanners have little in the way of "mods" in comparison. For example, I have none, zero, nada to my old G20. Maybe will get a roof vent someday...woohoo. Here's an example signature line:
'10 Ford F-450, 6.4, 4.30, 4x4, 14,500 GVWR. '06 Host Rainer 950 Dbl Slide, Torklift Talon tiedowns, Glow Steps, and Fastguns. Firestone Air Bags, Hankook DH-01 225/19.5 Fs, Curt front hitch, Energy Suspension bump stops.
Oh, this image didn't copy to my long post from before. Watch those clearances!
Attachments
Don't discount pop ups as not being 4 season friendly.
They have whole villages in Alaska in 40 below and colder weather that are nothing but uninsulated tents, and they are perfectly warm and comfortable inside.
I spent 11 winters up there working, living between my uninsulated van, and uninsulated sleeper cabs of the trucks I was driving, and it was always warm and toasty inside. One January, I lived in one of those uninsulated tents for the month. You could literally feel the wind blowing through it. Crank up your heat, and it would hold both the cold and the wind at bay.
Spend your time, money, and energy, worrying about your heating & cooling devices, any old structure is just fine, even a tent.
They have whole villages in Alaska in 40 below and colder weather that are nothing but uninsulated tents, and they are perfectly warm and comfortable inside.
I spent 11 winters up there working, living between my uninsulated van, and uninsulated sleeper cabs of the trucks I was driving, and it was always warm and toasty inside. One January, I lived in one of those uninsulated tents for the month. You could literally feel the wind blowing through it. Crank up your heat, and it would hold both the cold and the wind at bay.
Spend your time, money, and energy, worrying about your heating & cooling devices, any old structure is just fine, even a tent.
Ballenxj
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2012
- Messages
- 3,211
- Reaction score
- 15
dusty98 said:
OUCH! That was one expensive mistake! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Still not sure which way I want to go this time, but gathering valuable information.
So far I've done the van thing, & lived in a motorhome, but never a slide in camper yet.
Trying to find the best option for me to try.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2010
- Messages
- 7,706
- Reaction score
- 56
Off Grid 24/7 said:
I don't know where to start! This is without doubt the single most ridiculous post I've ever seen on any forum and I can't let this misinformation go unanswered.
I'm not even going to try to disprove it, even the tiniest bit of common sense will tell you it's wrong.
After living in Alaska for 45 years and in a van there for 6 years, my advice to everyone is to do the opposite of what is quoted here.
Bob
mockturtle
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2012
- Messages
- 1,510
- Reaction score
- 1
If you exert your due diligence on researching truck campers, you will find that there are some high quality, off-road campers that you can easily carry with a one-ton or even 3/4 ton truck. Don't get slide-outs! They add a lot of weight and are fraught with problems. Here is a company that makes very basic--but high quality--truck campers: http://www.alaskancamper.com/ They are hard-sided popups that are low profile and also safe in bear country.
Canine
Well-known member
The other thing to consider about TC's is the door entry height. The newer pickups, especially 4x4, appear to be higher off the ground than older 70's and 80's models. When I say "appear" it's really not just they look like, they are.
It used to be I could reach over the bedsides of my 77' 1 ton 4x4 with std. 16 inch rims and get something off the bed floor. I've seen too many trucks on dealers lots or in parking lots where I can't even reach over the sidewalls and touch the bed floor. I'm only 5'6 but still (and no jokes about me having to stand too far away because of my girth). .
The point is, the higher your pickup is off the ground, the more entry steps are needed to get into it. Here's an example with 5, count em' 5 entry steps, :huh:
Maybe this is a bit extreme, but still, I wouldn't be comfortable trying to go up and down something this high and narrow, especially at night.
From the Good Sam's Club Opens Roads forum, "Scissor Step Problem" thread.
Posted By: SteveRankin on 08/09/13 01:12pm
"We just bought a used Bigfoot 25C96B yesterday and the biggest issue we have is the steps -- they are horrible. The main problem is that no matter what we do, most of the steps aren't level. Any suggestions?"
Steve & C. J.
1998 Bigfoot 25C9.6B
2010 Dodge Ram Laramie 3500 4X4, Cummins 6.7, Crewcab SRW LB
TrailerSaver BD3 & MOR/Ryde
It used to be I could reach over the bedsides of my 77' 1 ton 4x4 with std. 16 inch rims and get something off the bed floor. I've seen too many trucks on dealers lots or in parking lots where I can't even reach over the sidewalls and touch the bed floor. I'm only 5'6 but still (and no jokes about me having to stand too far away because of my girth).
. The point is, the higher your pickup is off the ground, the more entry steps are needed to get into it. Here's an example with 5, count em' 5 entry steps, :huh:
Maybe this is a bit extreme, but still, I wouldn't be comfortable trying to go up and down something this high and narrow, especially at night.
From the Good Sam's Club Opens Roads forum, "Scissor Step Problem" thread.
Posted By: SteveRankin on 08/09/13 01:12pm
"We just bought a used Bigfoot 25C96B yesterday and the biggest issue we have is the steps -- they are horrible. The main problem is that no matter what we do, most of the steps aren't level. Any suggestions?"
Steve & C. J.
1998 Bigfoot 25C9.6B
2010 Dodge Ram Laramie 3500 4X4, Cummins 6.7, Crewcab SRW LB
TrailerSaver BD3 & MOR/Ryde
Attachments
Canine
Well-known member
I stayed in Kalispell, MT (Northwest Montana) for a few months in an old 16 foot camper trailer with my dad. I remember one month it cost us nearly $150. That was in 1989! Gasoline was less than a dollar a gallon, so I'm assuming the propane was cheaper still. I can't imagine the cost of heating that in 50 below weather today. Dealing with the condensation was the pits, too.
