Bitcoin anyone?

[lenny flank]

Wow, the tinfoil is really getting thick now..........

 

[John61CT]

YES, BITCOIN HAS NO INTRINSIC VALUE. NEITHER DOES A $1 BILL

https://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-has-no-intrinsic-value-neither-does-a-dollar1-bill/amp

 

[lenny flank]

Gold has no intrinsic value either--you can't eat it, you can't build a house with it, you can't burn it to keep warm. Intrinsically, it is heavy and useless.

People selected it as "money" because it is easily dividable, mintable into coins, and lasts forever without rotting or corroding.

 

[highdesertranger]

people selected gold as money because they value it. this value crosses all borders and is pretty much universal. oh yeah gold has many uses in industry. especially electronics. highdesertranger

 

[lenny flank]

people selected gold as money because they value it.  this value crosses all borders and is pretty much universal.  oh yeah gold has many uses in industry.  especially electronics.  highdesertranger

Historically, people who had gold resources did not use it as money--they used it as decoration.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Historically, people who had gold resources did not use it as money--they used it as decoration.

Gold as a medium of exchange is mentioned as early as the 4 millennium BC (Egypt).
Gold and silver as a cross cultural medium of exchange is mentioned as early as 1900 BC (Middle East, India, Agean).
Gold and silver coins appear as early as 1000 BC (China, India, Agean).  As standardized weight coins around 700 BC.

Decorative gold in early history was used in two ways:
 1. As an offering to the gods; the god's likeness made out of gold because of its value.
 2. As a method of storing wealth.  A woman wore her dowery, the rich had gold objects, etc.

Developing a currency was necessary for trade.  IMO gold was selected as it was scarce, difficult to produce, doesn't corrode, and everyone agreed on its value.

I don't know about bitcoins, I think mainly because I don't understand them, I don't trust computers and I don't know of anywhere in my weekly commerce that takes them in exchange for goods and services.

 -- Spiff

 

[Ballenxj]

Historically, people who had gold resources did not use it as money--they used it as decoration.

OK Lenny, I've gotta call you on this statement, sorry. According to this site Gold has been used as monetary since 40,000 BC. I didn't realize history was recorded that far back, but here you go.
https://bebusinessed.com/history/the-history-of-gold/

These guys say since only 700 BC, but still.......
http://onlygold.com/Info/History-Of-Gold.asp

These folk agree with the 700 BC belief.
http://www.silvermonthly.com/the-history-of-gold-as-money/

These folk are among the BC dating as well.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab14

There are lots more out there that agree with these sites, but I'm not going to post them all here as I think my point was made already.
I suspect you and frater secessus are invested in bitcoin?

 

[lenny flank]

Gold as a medium of exchange is mentioned as early as the 4 millennium BC (Egypt).
Gold and silver as a cross cultural medium of exchange is mentioned as early as 1900 BC (Middle East, India, Agean).
Gold and silver coins appear as early as 1000 BC (China, India, Agean).  As standardized weight coins around 700 BC.

Decorative gold in early history was used in two ways:
 1. As an offering to the gods; the god's likeness made out of gold because of its value.
 2. As a method of storing wealth.  A woman wore her dowery, the rich had gold objects, etc.

Developing a currency was necessary for trade.  IMO gold was selected as it was scarce, difficult to produce, doesn't corrode, and everyone agreed on its value.

I don't know about bitcoins, I think mainly because I don't understand them, I don't trust computers and I don't know of anywhere in my weekly commerce that takes them in exchange for goods and services.

 -- Spiff

On the other hand, people have used everything from clamshell beads to coffee beans to dried fish to large rocks as money. The Chinese had iron coins. Pacific Islanders used shark's teeth and cowrie shells. In most of Africa, "money" means "cows". In feudal Japan, prices were set in units of rice. (The samurai, for example, were paid in units called "koku"--the amount of rice that would feed one person per year.) 

There's nothing inherent about gold that makes it "money". The Egyptian Pharoahs and the Roman Emperors simply said it was, and so it was. They could just as easily have said that everyone has to pay for things with iron billets or salt or cochineal dye (all things which WERE used to pay for things in other cultures). 

And there's nothing universal about gold or silver as money--most other cultures worldwide used something else, and gold and silver are used worldwide today simply because the Europeans who used it, invaded everyone else. 

In the end, ALL money is "fiat money"--it is money simply because everyone agrees to accept it as money, and it really doesn't matter what physical object is accepted as such.

As for bitcoins, I agree.  It's not really "money" if nobody in the local mall will take it, and you can't even buy a Big Mac with it.

 

[lenny flank]

OK Lenny, I've gotta call you on this statement, sorry. According to this site Gold has been used as monetary since 40,000 BC. I didn't realize history was recorded that far back, but here you go.
https://bebusinessed.com/history/the-history-of-gold/

These guys say since only 700 BC, but still.......
http://onlygold.com/Info/History-Of-Gold.asp

These folk agree with the 700 BC belief.
http://www.silvermonthly.com/the-history-of-gold-as-money/

These folk are among the BC dating as well.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab14

There are lots more out there that agree with these sites, but I'm not going to post them all here as I think my point was made already. 

From your link:

"As much as the Egyptians loved gold, they never used it as a bartering tool. Instead, most Egyptians used agricultural products like barley as a de-facto form of money."

"Gold as a product" is different than "gold as money". Note also that this was in Europe and in nearby areas that traded with Europe---it was not universal. The Aztecs and Maya also loved gold and made gazillions of religious objects from it--but they didn't use it as money. They used chocolate beans instead. When the europeans invaded, they had no idea why the crazy white people were so eager to kill everyone in order to get the yellow shiny metal decorations.  



[quote pid='323764' dateline='1503267078']
I suspect you and frater secessus are invested in bitcoin?
[/quote]



Nope.  Not only do I see no value in anything I can't buy a Big Mac with, but I think "privatized money" is one of the dumber ideas I've ever heard.

 

[Scott7022]

 

In the end, ALL money is "fiat money"--it is money simply because everyone agrees to accept it as money, and it really doesn't matter what physical object is accepted as such.

As for bitcoins, I agree.  It's not really "money" if nobody in the local mall will take it, and you can't even buy a Big Mac with it.

As I tried to point out. You are just not shopping in the right markets. Bit Coin is a unit of trade between people not like US. A king's currency or an Assinins "weight in gold" Just because you can't use it in a Dallas Burger King makes it no less currency than an AMEX black card if they don't take American Express. One of the primary reasons it was developed was to circumnavigate currency laws, and guarantee anonymity for the buyer, seller, and the transaction. A primary reason it hasn't been as widely adopted in America by regular folks is the media and press behind he currency. Is that tinfoil hat time? Is that for reasons of conspiracy? I don't know. 

For my last book I took a deep dive into Conspiracy Theories as I needed to use them to put a reasonable spin in the story and separate the  nutty from the classified. It wasn't healthy reading. But to write accurately and tell a believable story you need to know the subject matter. Denver airport alone probably absorbed 200 hours of research. 

So to some facts. Many prepper sites in the US accept Bitcoin, in fact even some trusted solar dealers, mentioned on this forum accept it as payment. I was entertained at a dinner in Amsterdam and my host paid with Bitcoin like you'd use a credit card in Dallas. No fuss or surprise. When you leave/enter Russia you have to declare how much hard currency you are travelling with. Same for entering the USA and Canada. If you read the Canadian law, it says instruments of convertible.
Here is the quote;
 "[font='Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Anytime you cross the border, you must declare any currency or monetary instruments you have valued at Can$10,000 or more. This amount includes Canadian or foreign currency or a combination of both. Monetary instruments include, but are not limited to, stocks, bonds, bank drafts, cheques and traveller's cheques. There are no restrictions on the amount of money you can bring into or take out of Canada, nor is it illegal to do so."[/font] 

I once asked a Customs Officer if I had a positive balance on my Visa did I need to declare it as  a "...not limited to Monetary Instrument..." He said yes it if is over 10 large. So if I have 30 large limit and have only used 15 do I have to declare the remaining 15.? This gets very confusing very quickly and I speak the language. 

No issue if you won fifty grand in a Vegas casino. You will have tax forms for money you paid to Nevada, a selfie with the showgirl. You get the picture. But, say you're my friend George. George, not his Chinese name, (LOL) came from a smaller village to live and study in Canada. Nice guy and his Dad was the second billionaire in China. George travelled with a suitcase, carry on, containing 21 pounds of American currency. One million dollars. He knew he had to declare it and did. He spent three hours trying with broken English to explain it was his allowance. They let him call me, and I came and helped sort it out for him. The Officers were kind and just doing their job, but culturally they couldn't understand an allowance of a million dollars. Neither do I, but I know George isn't an international drug dealer or terrorist. It is not a world many of us live in. So the next time George came, he brought his paraphrase and socks. Bought his apartment in False Creek Vancouver via BitCoin.

Other countries have very strict laws regarding money leaving or entering the country. Some of these laws are for good reasons and others not so good. BitCoin was created for these people. For example; During the heyday in the Republic of Georgia (the country) when Bush was speaking and making promises, and almost getting assassinated by a grenade, BitCoin was huge. Why? It was very difficult to sell a farm or business and take that US currency to Georgia America. USD?? Wait, this is a foreign country!! Yeah, and you can take Georgian Lari or American dollars out of any bank machine on the street. Expensive items listed for sale privately is in USD and must be paid in USD. Rental agreements and rent must be paid in USD. So before the war with Russia smart people were leaving and they all used BitCoin to get their money out of Georgia, the oppressed, and into Georgia, the home of the free. The currency fluctuations at this time made for some very rich Georgians who now enjoy residences in both countries. 

So this is not meant to be political it is view from the outside. Just because it isn't adopted as widely in the US doesn't mean it is not widely adopted. Just because you don't see cool Ladas in LA doesn't mean they aren't out there! The economy is global, interconnected, and influenced by the world. Sometimes looking out from within we miss it. 

I will leave you with a thought. Russia has been stockpiling gold. China has been stockpiling gold. These actions must be reported as part of some international agreement. China isn't reporting all of it if the news stories are to be believed. The Ruble was once a gold coin and tied to the gold standard. The US currency was once tied to the gold standard, but not anymore. Oil is bought and sold using the US currency or Petro dollar. Russia sells a great deal of oil. China buys a great deal of oil. It is inconvenient for both of these MASSIVE countries to use this currency. What would happen if the very large Chinese bank tied a new currency to gold and then started using that to pay for oil purchased from Russia and asked the Saudi's to adopt it as the official Petro currency? Now that is one hell of a Conspiracy Theory. Hello America Perestroika!! Agian, not being political, but would that not make a great book? I began writing a manuscript around that idea but I realized the research to understand the impact this would have would be too much to accurately describe.

 

[John61CT]

Bitcoin accepted at New York pre-school
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40447963

 

[Dgorila1]

I just wish I would have bought a bunch of bitcoin when it first came out. I would definitely be retired now!

 

[lenny flank]

I wish I had bought Apple stock when it first came out. I would definitely be retired now too.

 

[lenny flank]

As I tried to point out. You are just not shopping in the right markets. 

Meh, it still sounds to me like anti-government John-Bircher crank conspiracy theory.

And I still can't buy a Big Mac with it.

 

[John61CT]

Lots of alternative tech that came out of back-to-the-land and sustainable energy movements fifty years ago has been co-opted by the survivalist / prepper types.

The mindset of early adopters doesn't change the utility of the technology itself.

 

[lenny flank]

Alas, I see no utility in "money" that I can't even buy a Big Mac with, or spend anywhere in the local mall.

 

[user 423]

Just grab paper and pen and do what this guy did:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._G._Boggs

 

[chrisbailey]

Alas, I see no utility in "money" that I can't even buy a Big Mac rice cakes with, or spend anywhere in the local mall.

There...fixed that.  Now please stop making me want a Big Mac.  I will never crave rice cakes. 

If it ever stabilizes, more places will probably accept it, but it seems like a bit of a gamble for traditional businesses right now.

Add in the myriad of cryptocurrency scams out there and it's easy to see why mainstream businesses are still so hesitant.

 

[John61CT]

It's only risky if you buy and hold, just using for transactions then cashing out is NP, or at least no more than taking credit cards.

 

[lenny flank]

There...fixed that.  Now please stop making me want a Big Mac.  I will never crave rice cakes. 

Sorry, I've always had a weakness for Big Macs and Beef'n'Cheddars.