A Van Maintenance Cost Thread

[cortttt]

I got the 1-ton 2010 GMC Savana from Penske in 2015 with 65,000K. Three years later I have (somehow) put 85K on it. It now has 150K

Here's are the maintenance costs over the past three years. (major, uncaused by me failures in bold)

Maintenance and Repair costs from 65K to 150K

*12 synthetic oil/filter changes (done by myself) = @$430
*3 tail lights and fuses = $215 (I finally got wise and started replacing them myself)
72K  - Biltstein shocks - $495
76K - Replace transmission pan and parts - after hitting a rock / transmission flush - $600
97K - replace ignition module and key (Key not turning on car) - $740
102K - rear differential / power steering fluid flush/change - $220
104K - 4 KO2 All terrain tires - $800
106K - headlight - $20
120K - transmission flush - $226
120K - new spark plugs and wires / AC and serpentine belts /alignment - $862
120K - brake fluid flush - $199
121K - Fuel system clean - $118
122k - Front and rear brakes and front rotors (did myself) - $224
131K - Power steering fluid changed - $40
132K - Chassis lube (did myself) - $60
142K - Replace evaporator core - AC / clean vents - $822
143K - Replace damaged differential cover, reinstall active roadmaster suspension (one side had slipped off)/differential fluid change - $182
144K - 4 KO2 All Terrain Tires - $785
145K - Replace windshield  - $203
147K - replace throttle body sensor / clean throttle body - $305
147K - Fuel injector clean - $125
147K - Power steering flush - $135

Total over 3 years / 85K = $8,737

The past six months has been rough with an expensive AC repair, throttle body sensor replacement and windshield replacement but the worst is yet to come. 

On rough roads the right front has been giving creaking, knocking sounds. A Flagstaff suspension shop (American Springs) reported it would take $1k to fix that and recommended, even though it's not needed right now, that I just go ahead what I think is the lower part of the front end (control arms, bushings, ball joints I believe) for another $1K. He said it's coming.

I've assumed that front end stuff is coming given the workout the van gets particularly in the desert. Even though I always take it slow and easy the contortions the van goes through are at times amazing.  Two of the past repairs - the tranny pan and the rear differential cover have resulted from whacking something.
The worst incident occurred on the outskirts of the Great Salt Lake while cruising on a remarkably smooth road going probably about 35-40 mph I crested a small hill in the road to find an enormous pothole on the other side. I thought the wheels were going to come off. I was astonished there was no obvious damage. That was about 9 months ago.

So I assumed front end stuff was going to happen at some point.The van now does fine on most roads - it's takes some quite uneven ground to get it grumbling but when it does it's very obvious something has gone wrong.

The mechanic said the entire front end redo would last for ten years - basically the rest of the van's life. (I want to get 250K out of it) I'm undecided whether to go for the full package or wait on the second half. Suggestions are welcome. 

I don't know how long suspensions are supposed to last but I don't particularly blame the van for that. Otherwise three more or less major things have gone wrong, the ignition module, the evaporator core and the throttle body sensor. From what I can glean the throttle body sensor may be a more or less common problem.

 

[highdesertranger]

dang that's some expensive stuff.

60 bucks to do a lube job, I mean 60 bucks for a tube of grease. wow.

what's up with the power steering fluid being change so often.

200 bucks to flush the brake fluid? did you do everyone's in a 5 mile radius?

what are you doing for fuel system cleaning?

seems like you are going though those BFG's to fast, should be getting about 60k out of them.

the entire front end should be able to be done for about 500 bucks in parts then just get an alignment.

I hope you installed a bullet proof differential cover. there are several people making them out of 3/8" plate. you will not put a hole in those, you won't even dent it.

highdesertranger

 

[cortttt]

It wasn't the tube of grease - it was the grease gun ($35), the grease, and an attachment - bought from O'Reillys. The cost will be zero the next time

I didn't flush the power steering fluid the second time. I used a baster to remove and replace as much of it as i could but that didn't work. When it started whining when I turned hard I did the power steering flush.  - which did work.

You're right about the brake fluid flush. It's possible even probable that I got something else done at the same time and forgot to include it as I was getting a bunch of work done at the same time And no I only paid for my own. - if you want to do mine at some point, though, I'm open to it. 

I agree on the BFG's. Don't know why that happened. There were totally worn, though - one got a nail and Discount would not fix - tread was too low.  

Fuel injector service was done at the dealer or Firestone. Both worked great by the way. Engine always runs much better after them. I do them about once a year. 

You may be a mechanic but I'm not.  $500 of parts is not going to help much if they're sitting on the floor.  I don't know if $500 would cut it anyway: here are some costs on some of the parts from O'Reilly - and I' missing at least three of them which the shop would charge over $500 for. They seem to jack up the costs by about 30%.

Moog Pitman arm  - $100 / Idler Arm - $110 / Upper and lower control arm assemblies- $400 plus three others.  

I got a used differential cover - that's what they recommended and that was totally fine with me. I'd be surprised if I just happen to knock that lip again. It didn't have a hole in it (do they actually get holes in them?) the lip was dented.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

That is pretty good really if you think that 85k is close to 10 years of average driving, which means about   875 a year.

 

[JD GUMBEE]

You need to learn how not to pay retail.


The sensor on the TB, makes zero sense to me. That should be a $65 job. It is behind the air filter...so it should be perfectly clean already. Not sure how it cost that much money. There may have been other things done you are not including, but everything after the air filter should be good for the life of the van.

FI cleaner is a scam unless you have an actual marked change in the MPG or you feel extreme power loss without another explanation. We do not touch them...ever. Rare to see a non-DOD injector even go bad. (It DOES happen, but not very often.)

Good keeping track of expenses.

 

[cortttt]

I definitely got the dealer price - I was on the road in Kansas - got the reduced engine power loss message  (and the reduced engine power) and pulled over to a dealer.  When I looked up the problem everything said throttle body. I don't know where these guys get their information from but this is what they reported: 

https://repairpal.com/reduced-power-and-check-engine-light-941


Problem Description


The throttle position sensor (TPS) on the Chevrolet Express 2500 is notorious for failure which causes:

• Check engine light
• Reduced Power message
• OBD trouble code P2135

This issue is related to the throttle position sensor, and can be caused by faulty wiring to the TPS, bad connection at the TPS, or a failed TPS.

To correct this issue, the wiring harness, connector, and throttle position sensor must be inspected, tested, and/or replaced. The most common cause is a faulty TPS.

Cost Estimate

The average cost for a Chevrolet Express throttle position sensor replacement is between $143 and $191. Labor costs are estimated between $79 and $100 while parts are priced between $64 and $91. Estimate does not include taxes and fees.

https://repairpal.com/estimator/chevrolet/express+1500/throttle-position-sensor-replacement-cost

Fuel Injectors

My experience with fuel injection cleaning is different from yours.  Every time I've had it done - I've immediately noticed a reduction in engine noise and feeling of more power.  It's actually my favorite maintenance procedure

 

[cortttt]

With regard to the low life of the KO2's it turns out that 40K is not uncommon at all. 

https://www.off-road.com/trucks-4x4/review/bfgoodrich-allterrain-ta-ko2-longterm-review-54598.html

But Do They Last? 

https://trucktirereviews.com/bfg-ko2-lifespan-a-great-off-road-tire-but-does-it-last/

[font=Lato, sans-serif]All that said, the longer you drive them on-road, the longer they’ll last. The more you abuse them, the sooner you’ll be replacing them. Based on observed wear, 50,000 miles should be possible, but highly unlikely. For occasional off-road use look for closer to 40,000 miles or less if you really plan to abuse them.[/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]Those numbers might not sound like a lot compared to many passenger car tires that guarantee 65,000 miles or more, but remember that the KO2s will deliver some of the very best off-road traction and durability.[/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]While some people do get 60K or more there are also a lot of complaints from others about low lifespan of the tires.[/font]

[font=Lato, sans-serif]https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tires/goodrich.html[/font]

 

[JD GUMBEE]

My experience with fuel injection cleaning is different from yours.  Every time I've had it done - I've immediately noticed a reduction in engine noise and feeling of more power.  It's actually my favorite maintenance procedure [/size]

I have family members who will nearly testify that Jesus told them to use a certain fuel additive that "wakes up" their truck, too.
SMH
The "feeling" you are describing, near as the real egghead FI guys in our shops can tell, is the gyrations your ECM is going through during the process.
The computer does a LOT under your hood. That caustic crap they feed your fuel system does some strange 'reset-ish' adjustments by proxy. This is what you are feeling most likely, especially if you are hyper-tuned into how your vehicle normally operates. In about ten miles, it resets and the throttle response goes back to feeling the same way as before.
Do not mistake what I am saying and run with the football through the end zone on me...
It IS possible that injectors can get dirty.
Not usually at the mileage you are talking about.
More like 200K+ and even then, on an injected GM V8, you don't see reduced MPG to any real level.

The dealer has a "caustic can of juice" for this purpose they plug in and it DOES work...BUT

...we had the very same outfit that supplies the dealers try selling us the magic juice.
We met them up North with three trucks and a dyno. They hired it for the whole day to see the results.
The guy from GM was even there.
(I was there, too. Remember it very well...I had to stand on concrete and sit on a wooden stool for 9 hours and hurt like hell that night.)
200,000 mile 3500 service van that had basically never had a wrench on it, a 120,000 mile pickup and a dually we could not fit on the freaking dyno...they pulled the outer wheels off and did some wheelnut/spacer trick to hold them on...with 160,000.

We did a pretest and a post-caustic clean test on every one.
In the 200,000 mile truck, fuel flow change for HP was marginal. Less than a 1HP difference in result. (This is less than your A/C pulls.)
The others...if you listened close, you could 'sort of maybe' tell they idled maybe maybe a little smoother...but there were no issues to start with. They idle decent anyway.
No increase in HP, fuel flow was identical. The GM guy had all the dials connected to the injection system and we watched all RPM ranges. Fuel flow was EXACTLY the same same.
The guy who sells the juice could not reproduce the outcomes claimed and he went home a beaten salesman.

At your mileage, if you truly want 110% from your injectors, for nearly the same money...buying a set of these would be better money spent. New is new. Changing them is not climbing Everest, either.
https://www.amazon.com/New-Fuel-Injector-Chevrolet-V8-6-0L/dp/B019EHCV38
^^^Link to new injectors^^^

(Neither is that TPS swap. Look on YT for videos showing how to do it yourself...like this one:
)
Though...a 30 dollar "Advance Auto Mexican/Chinese special" has varying degrees of longevity. YMMV.
We get the better units as previously mentioned.

I was talking more about the "cleaning" labor seemingly involved. This is a dealership scam to bleed you.

As a rule, anything you dump into your truck in the way of fluids will not improve its running or fix problems.
We call it the "magic juice phenomenon." Largely wasted money.

One thing you are doing right for sure is...the brake fluid flushing.
Not worth it in multi-vehicle scenarios...the trucks are whipped by the time calipers begin locking up, but if you want the full 300K lifespan, it can be a good idea.
(Only...lets say you need to replace a couple calipers @ 250K. You need to weigh the price against the cost of all the flushes. The calipers are not made of gold or priced like it.)
Also, that flush is usually just a power bleeder and cranking bleeder screws with a drain hose attached.
$200 for that? With a lift, I could do it six times in an hour on your van...think about that.
(Also, you can do the same thing with a can of fluid, a funnel and gravity/patience in the desert. Materials and fluid...about 20 bucks.)
You do what you like.
I wish you good luck doing it, too.
You are one of the people I think of when someone says, "if the owner has meticulously maintained the vehicle..."
Most people look at the toothbrushed scrubbed rims and cross-vacuumed carpeting. Neither which do a damned thing for the van.
Trust me on the injectors though.
New is better than the "acid wash."
Especially if you are paying that much for it.

 

[cortttt]

Thanks JD, 

May I say that as someone who is interested in these vehicles and cars in general but who doesn't have a technical bone in his body I really appreciate your posts and learning from someone in the field. It's fascinating. I have no idea what's going on with the injector cleaning. What really stood out for me was the reduction in engine noise and it seemed smoother. 

Anyway, I need to learn how to do a brake fluid flush that;s for sure. 

I got a lot of deferred maintenance done at 120K. I'd driven so many miles that I'd accidentally blown past some suggested maintenance procedures and the van felt it. It was not happy and neither was I but getting that stuff done - and it seemed to take all of it - made a big difference. My baby was back...  

I love how well the engine and tranny work together when everything is in sync. For some reason I just get more of a kick out of that in this car than my others. 


While I have you here, if you don't mind, can you explain how the Chevy engine changed in 2015 and the possible concerns about that?

 

[JD GUMBEE]

While I have you here, if you don't mind, can you explain how the Chevy engine changed in 2015 and the possible concerns about that?

It isn't exactly the engine, per se.
The heads and block use much of the same same as what you drive.
It's the way it pressurizes and injects the fuel.
2015 and newer, depending on weight and highway/off highway use...have fuel injected more like an electronic diesel than a typical multi port setup like you have. Don't think this is some Promaster warning horn, either.
If you need to buy a brand new van, I would STILL suggest GM...but that direct injection is PRICEY indeed when it fails.
So far, so good...but the power gains are marginal, the MPG is ehhhh...yeah...but one screw up and all that MPG increase is much more than canceled out by a 1400 dollar job/breakdown. (...and this has happened...)
I am always on the lookout for the longevity and total cost of ownership.
The new demand for reduced emissions along with better MPG means we will be seeing more and more complex engine systems like this. Moving forward, it will become a crapshoot more and more.

Read up about it from a mechanics perspective here:
https://www.autoserviceprofessional...erns-new-technology-affects-service-practices
Stick with it, even if you do not comprehend all of it...it will give you a good idea about the cam...pumps, etc.
There is a LOT of new stuff in there. A lot. And much of it is buried deep in the engine. (compared to yours)
Your injection is all outside the intake...easy-easy.
Even the fuel pumps in the tanks are not that bad.
The new one spits fuel spray RIGHT into the combustion chamber like a diesel.

Like Variable Valve Timing, if it works properly, it makes the thing run VERY well.
But, like Variable Valve Timing...it makes a lot more complex, buried-deep-components necessary.


PS...your hearing is not faulty.
The cleaning juice may well make a difference in the sound of the engine.
(Your van runs on it when it gets cleaned instead of gasoline.)
Ask a mechanic what happens with the timing/fuel curves/adjustments when that juice is introduced.
(The ECM goes through a gymnastics routine like you would not believe.)
In the newer fly-by-wire stuff, this has a big effect.

Put on a dyno, the real test, would show you the truth.
(Did you honestly find increased MPG in the three tanks following the cleaner juice? I bet not...or that it was a marginal difference at best.)

 

[cortttt]

Thanks. 

Yes - no increase in MPG - that's correct. 

It's amazing how much more complex that engine is. I had not idea so much had changed.  The odds of something going wrong must be much, much higher.
 
It seems like a lot of work for not much benefit as yet. Fuel economy in the 2019 Silverado V8 vs V6 is only very marginally improved, if that. - https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Chevrolet2019.shtml

More complex engines to seem to be the wave of the future, though. Chevy now only offers the V6, the 2.8 L turbo diesel with only the 6.0 L.of the older engine design remaining. 

https://www.chevrolet.com/commercial/express-cargo-van/build-and-price/config

 

[cortttt]

I must say tho, very impressive modifications. If it works it should be quite an advance. 

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm...news/us/en/2012/Dec/1213_ecotec3-engines.html 

Chevy has a lot riding on this engine - everyone seems to love the small block engines - it's replacing. Hopefully it will hang in there. It will be interesting to learn what your stats are telling you JD over time. 

https://www.motortrend.com/news/small-block-chevy-v8-through-the-years/

"The small-block Chevy is unquestionably the dominant domestic engine both in terms of sheer numbers and also in terms of longevity," said Jeff Smith, senior technical editor for Car Craft Magazine. He cites the engine's interchangeability as one of the biggest reasons for its popularity. "It's possible to swap a set of heads from a 1990 Vortec truck engine onto the original '55 265. I doubt there's an engine ever built (perhaps the VW) that you could swap parts from engines 45 years apart.

"The aftermarket loves engines like the SBC because they knew that if they invested in a decent design like a good flowing cylinder head or a well-designed performance camshaft, that the design would have a decade or more worth of longevity," Smith added. 

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/engines/about/chevy/chevy-small-block-v8

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As simply as can be stated, the Chevy Small Block is a self-perpetuating marvel of automotive history. The very excellent design of the engine, the solid advancements Chevy continuously made and the sheer prolific nature of the motor made them rise quickly to the top in the world of [/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]engine swapping into Jeep vehicles[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/font]

 

[JD GUMBEE]

...unlike Ford, GM took all the SBC experience and applied it to the "LS" series and beyond.
Ford went ultra tech with full redesigns several times...and suffered for it.

Think about this...the Ford 302/351 windsor engines were EVERY bit as strong as the SBC.
(351 would walk away from the 350 Chevy in stock trim, actually)
Back in the days of the 292/312/352/even into the 390 years...Chevy did not come close to Ford grunt and reliability.
Ford and Dodge "job rated" big sixes RULED the business back then.

Not any more.

Keep fingers crossed on the new Ford 7.3.

 

[highdesertranger]

the thing is Ford and Dodge never had the interchangeability of parts that Chevy had. and for engine conversions for older vehicles 90% of them use Chevy engines and transmission. even most old Ford and Dodge restores have Chevy engines in them. highdesertranger

 

[JD GUMBEE]

Not for as long, no.

I agree with your statement...and would "LS" a "T-Bucket" being built right now without question.

However...if this were 1990, an old Carbureted 5.0 Ford from some wrecked mustang would be every bit as good for the job as a Chevy.

302's kicked ass. Mustang GT's of the pushrod years have to be given their due.
They handled well, went like stink...and in later life...even returned very good MPG for something with that much performance.

(Of course, now...you see everything with turbos and blowers hitting 700+ HP.)

(You and I both know...more than 400 true wheel horsepower in a car on the street is largely mental masturbation and makes little difference besides a more impressive dyno slip. The ability to smoke tires @ 70MPH is a useless ability IMO.)

I find I have a lot more fun tapping a 300HP car to its limit than always having to worry about going sideways with 500.

(Unless it is a Sloppy Mechanics turbo LS in a Winnebago...that is LOL )

 

[JD GUMBEE]

Oh, was that off topic there?

Sorry about that.

 

[highdesertranger]

I didn't say it wouldn't be as good I said the majority of them are Chevy. in fact around here the vast majority, at least in vehicles from the 50's down. highdesertranger

 

[JD GUMBEE]

^^^Our friend Scotty, talking about Honda direct injection...and how/why he thinks they screwed up.
(...and he might be right.)