Suggestions for venting wet cell batteries

[ainley53]

I would like to use two 6 volt golf cart batteries (Trojan T-105 225Ah) instead of one 12 volt AGM (Trojan T-31 105Ah) but I'm concerned about the batteries gassing inside a small SUV (2008 Saturn Outlook). The best I can come up with is installing side window visors/shades and rolling the windows down about an inch. The back windows could be covered with No-See-Um full time and Reflectix when needed. Either or both of these could be mounted using double sided electrical tape or something similar. Any venting ideas?

 

[SternWake]

How are these going to be recharged?


I ask because 99% of the time, the only time  wet batteries actually offgass is when charging and when brought up to gassing voltages, say 14.4v and higher.  and in the 75% to 100% range of charging (Trojan recommends bringing them to 14.8) absorption voltage.

Those 1% times are during extremely heavy discharge or when the battery is at the end of life and a cell shorts out.

In general they do not offgass when discharging at regular rates, but that does not mean somebody with a sensitive sniffer cannot smell the electrolyte, but the hydrogen and oxygen with a sulfuric acid mist is not actively being pushed out the cells.

So it is wise to want to vent them to the exterior of the vehicle, and to not breathe the sulfuric acid mist when they are charging.  Getting the fumes out is not always ergonomic, and if the vehicle is in motion and the windows open when charging in the 75% to 100% range then the offgassing is not much of a concern.

Keeping batteries 75% charged or less is not a solution, unless you get batteries for free

One can get hydrocaps aor water miser caps for the cells and reduce the gassing( and water usage) as well.

http://www.flowsystemsusa.com/water-miser-vent-cap.html

I do not believe they are as effective as their marketing claims, but they can't hurt, and I plan on using them if I can acquire the t1275 version with individual caps.

 

[ZoNiE]

Hmm... I never recommend putting Lead Acids inside of a passenger compartment. Yeah, some automakers put them under the seat, but they are usually AGM batteries. Many folks here have done it. People also may not realize that that electrolyte gassing will corrode items within the vehicle, and hasten the dry rotting of the textile materials.

Probably also may not be to much of an advantage if you have a wreck and the batteries are ruptured or short or something similar. Insurance can and will probably deny any claims if they find that.

My recommendation is Just. Don't. Do. It.

It's not likely that you have space under the hood in that car for a second, and you probably are keeping the house batteries separate from the engine.

If it were me, I would try to find a spot under the vehicle, like where the spare tire may reside, and then have a weldment made to hold them, in proper battery boxes with covers, then Relocate the spare to a carrier on the tailgate.

My 2 cents...

 

[1977dodge]

I built a dedicated box for my flooded batteries and then caulked all around the joints i used the vent that was connected to the old propane heater 
you do need to have a way for convection to occur so a vent higher than the batteries as the fumes are lighter than air and will rise and an inlet lower or on floor where batteries are located 
i can do a short video if you want
Roy

 

[ainley53]

SternWake that was good info. Thanks. I followed your link for the Miser Caps. My BS meter went NUTS!! "Virtually acid free" Really?

and 1977dodge I followed a link psytechguy gave someone else for venting. Here it is:
good info on venting hydrogen: http://www.bdbatteries.com/hydrogenventing.php

 

[wayne49]

Yeah, some automakers put them under the seat, but they are usually AGM batteries.  Many folks here have done it. People also may not realize that that electrolyte gassing will corrode items within the vehicle, and hasten the dry rotting of the textile materials.

I owned a 1968 VW Squareback back when. The conventionial lead acid battery was under the rear seat cushion. There might have been special materials used in areas closest to the battery. Other than that, no special venting arrangement.

 

[cdiggy]

I owned a 1968 VW Squareback back when. The conventionial lead acid battery was under the rear seat cushion. There might have been special materials used in areas closest to the battery. Other than that, no special venting arrangement.

We had a guy in school who went by the name of 'Fifty Pound Head' (he passes out at a party and they weighed his head on a bathroom scale!). Anyway he got into the back of an old VW bug and the springs touched the terminals and torched the car (no one was hurt). He was a very large man... Anyway, the square back battery under the seat triggered an old memory. Sorry for the hijack!

 

[LeeRevell]

A buddy of mine had a '69 Squareback. He slept in it on occasion. Went through many motors but never had a battery problem.

 

[ccbreder]

I have had many VW beetles. Only problem with any battery under the seat, was they were 6 volt posi ground.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I have had many VW beetles. Only problem with any battery under the seat, was they were 6 volt posi ground.

I had a VW bus that I was sure was 12 volts, so out of curiosity I googled this.  According to one of the VW collector's forums, VW went to 12 volt across the board on all VWs exported to the US in 1967.  Supposedly the 6 volt setup lasted on the European models until the 70s.

Regards
John

 

[Seraphim]

OP

Our truck camper uses battery boxes designed for the purpose. They have a hole in the bottom which corresponds to a hole (screened) in the TC floor. From the lid of the box is a vent tube to the side of the unit - also a screened hole.

 

[ccbreder]

So, Opti. are you saying I'm showing my age? I also had 12 volt vw with battery under seat with no problems.

 

[ainley53]

As usual SternWake, you’re very thorough and helpful. Please forgive the lengthy delay in posting this reply. I still have lots to learn and lots to do and not nearly enough time or money to get “it” done.
As I’ve stated in other posts, my goal is to drive to a NF or BLM, camp for a few days while I explore the area on my motorcycle, then move to another area and repeat. Since my motorcycle is a Harley Electra Glide and weighs almost 1,000 pounds, it’s not a bike you want to get off the pavement with. If I should ever get it laid over, I could not get it back up by myself. So, I’ll sell my beloved Harley and get something smaller and lighter than can handle good gravel and/or good dirt roads. I’ll use the profit from the sale to finance my venture.
I have a 2008 Saturn Outlook which is a passenger vehicle, not a cargo van, so usable space is very limited. Once the rear seats are removed I’ll have a minimum useable space of 48”W x 84”L x 38”H. Perhaps a little more here and there, but not much.

I’ve decided to go with one Trojan J185 which is a 200Ah 12 volt AGM battery. Two Renogy RGN-100P solar panels due to the size of panels and to match the battery. A Morningstar TriStar TS-45 PWM controller and a TriMetric TM-2030-RV battery monitor. No generator. Plus wire, connectors, shunt(s), fuses and whatever else is need to hook it all together. Suggestions welcome.

The battery in my Saturn is an AGM and it’s mounted in a well behind the front passenger seat. I thought I’d connect the Trojan J185 to the vehicle’s battery with a continuous duty solenoid and a cutoff switch as a way to partially recharge it while driving. I realize my alternator will not fully recharge the J185 but some recharging is better than none. Right? For full recharge I’d use the solar panels while camped.

Which brings me to the solar panels I’ve chosen. The Saturn has roof rails but no crossbars. The roof rails are 5 feet long, 2” wide and 2.5” tall with ¾” gap between the roof and the bottom of the rail and a 2 foot gap between the front and rear rail mounts. I’ll use two U-bolts per rail with 1.5” OD fender washers to mount a sheet of ½” plywood (44.5”W x 60”L) to the roof rails. I don’t want these mounting holes too close to the edge of the plywood. Two of these solar panels (40.5”W x 26.7”L) will fit this with adequate room for mounting brackets. Later on I’ll figure out a way to make brackets that allow me to tilt the panels 4 ways. I’ll weatherproof the plywood with a few coats of the stuff they use for patio decks.

I’ll mount the Trojan J185 on the floor behind the driver’s seat. I’ll use a base of ½” plywood and attach a small sheet of pegboard to it with “L” brackets. The battery and pegboard can be secured to the driver’s seat with small ratchet type tie down straps (not bungee cords) to prevent it from moving around. The pegboard will be very convenient for mounting the controller, meter and other stuff as well as minimizing the distance between controller and battery. I've found Bob Shearer's blog to be very educational.

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

THE PROBLEM: how to get the wires from the solar panels to the controller WITHOUT cutting a hole in the roof of my Saturn. I’ll mount the panels on the plywood with the connector boxes on the driver’s side of the vehicle to allow quick and easy access to the cables. The simplest and easiest solution I can think of is to just run the cables in through the driver's side passenger window and use the MC3 or MC4 connectors to disconnect the cables if I need the window up all the way. Another possibility is a Pollak two pole trailer connector. Route the cables through a hole in the floor of the vehicle and use an “L” bracket to mount the Pollak connector to the bottom of the vehicle directly below the back edge of the driver’s door. This would require ring connectors on one side of the Pollak and soldering on the other side. I’m not convinced this would be a “good” way to go as it’s sure to increase the voltage drop and the more connections there are the greater the potential for problems with the connections.

As usual I’m always curious and welcome other ideas.

 

[Almost There]

A possible suggestion for routing those solar panel wires into the vehicle without cutting a hole in the roof - if you can get rain guards to fit the Saturn, put them on all the doors. It allows the windows to be slightly rolled down anytime which you'll need anyways for ventilation, particularly in wetter cold weather when you're running a heater. Predrill the hole in the rain guard and then wire through the rain guard and in to the vehicle. If you feel the need to still be able to close that window tightly, I'd further suggest a connector glued in on the underside of the vent guard - it would be out of sight, out of the weather and you could disconnect the wiring at that point to roll the window all the way up.

 

[ainley53]

'Almost There' Thanks. Already have the side vidor/shades on my list of needed items for the reasons stated. I'm hoping there can/will be enough slack and flexibility in the cables to allow me to run them through the window without drilling a hole(s) in the visor. At this point, I've not even seen a solar panel let alone had a chance to "play" with one. Is my "newbie" status showing? LOL.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

THE PROBLEM:  how to get the wires from the solar panels to the controller WITHOUT cutting a hole in the roof of my Saturn.  I’ll mount the panels on the plywood with the connector boxes on the driver’s side of the vehicle to allow quick and easy access to the cables.  The simplest and easiest solution I can think of is to just run the cables in through the driver's side passenger window and use the MC3 or MC4 connectors to disconnect the cables if I need the window up all the way.  Another possibility is a Pollak two pole trailer connector.  Route the cables through a hole in the floor of the vehicle and use an “L” bracket to mount the Pollak connector to the bottom of the vehicle directly below the back edge of the driver’s door.  This would require ring connectors on one side of the Pollak and soldering on the other side.  I’m not convinced this would be a “good” way to go as it’s sure to increase the voltage drop and the more connections there are the greater the potential for problems with the connections.

As usual I’m always curious and welcome other ideas.

Several years ago I had a Sirius satellite radio installed in my car by Best Buy.  The antenna is magnetic and just sticks to the roof.  They put it right in the center of the car, right behind the windshield, and were able to put the wire under the rubber around the windshield and work it down behind the door gaskets into my car without drilling any holes.  Look your car over carefully, and if you don't see how to do it, I'll bet an audio installer could run the wires for you.  They do it all the time.

MC4 connectors do NOT come apart easily once you use them, it requires a special tool to separate them.  See http://www.solar-electric.com/ditoformc4co.html  I wouldn't plan on plugging and unplugging them frequently.

Finally, DO NOT cut the MC4 connector off your solar panel to replace it with something else.  I'm told that that voids the warranty on your solar panel.  The way to handle that issue is to purchase an MC4 extension wire, plug that onto the panel, and cut the other end off the extension wire to get a couple of bare wires to work with.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

As usual SternWake, you’re very thorough and helpful.  Please forgive the lengthy delay in posting this reply.  I still have lots to learn and lots to do and not nearly enough time or money to get “it” done.  
As I’ve stated in other posts, my goal is to drive to a NF or BLM, camp for a few days while I explore the area on my motorcycle, then move to another area and repeat.  Since my motorcycle is a Harley Electra Glide and weighs almost 1,000 pounds, it’s not a bike you want to get off the pavement with.  If I should ever get it laid over, I could not get it back up by myself.  So, I’ll sell my beloved Harley and get something smaller and lighter than can handle good gravel and/or good dirt roads.  I’ll use the profit from the sale to finance my venture.

A bit off topic for the electrical subforum, but WTH.  Are you familiar with the Horizons Unlimited site?  http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/  That would be where I would go to research Adventure Bikes.

Regards
John

 

[Almost There]

MC4 connectors do NOT come apart easily once you use them, it requires a special tool to separate them.  See http://www.solar-electric.com/ditoformc4co.html  I wouldn't plan on plugging and unplugging them frequently.


Regards
John

Good to know and also good to know that there's a tool out there designed to do the job.

Thanks

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I’ll weatherproof the plywood with a few coats of the stuff they use for patio decks.

I'm looking at boat paint, myself.  In particular, I'm looking at a specialty item called Bilge Paint.  It's an epoxy paint that's not only waterproofs, but is also highly resistant to spilled fuel, oil, etc.  Not cheap, at $25 a quart, but I'm thinking I'll only have to do it once.

Regards
John

 

[GotSmart]

Several years ago I had a Sirius satellite radio installed in my car by Best Buy.  The antenna is magnetic and just sticks to the roof.  They put it right in the center of the car, right behind the windshield, and were able to put the wire under the rubber around the windshield and work it down behind the door gaskets into my car without drilling any holes.  Look your car over carefully, and if you don't see how to do it, I'll bet an audio installer could run the wires for you.  They do it all the time.

MC4 connectors do NOT come apart easily once you use them, it requires a special tool to separate them.  See http://www.solar-electric.com/ditoformc4co.html  I wouldn't plan on plugging and unplugging them frequently.

Finally, DO NOT cut the MC4 connector off your solar panel to replace it with something else.  I'm told that that voids the warranty on your solar panel.  The way to handle that issue is to purchase an MC4 extension wire, plug that onto the panel, and cut the other end off the extension wire to get a couple of bare wires to work with.

Regards
John

That is one of the few things that will void a 25 year solar panel warranty.  You have 2 wires to deal with.  You can get a plug connection (actually 2, one for each end and a heavy duty extension cord and make a easy way to unplug the panel when you want to take it in.