Marriage advice requested. Divorce or stay for the kids?

[One Awesome Inch]

Okay, here is the situation. I have been married for 15 years, but the marriage is pretty much over. I have two wonderful children... boy 9 and girl 2 and a half. The marriage has been very rocky for a long, long time and I've come to the conclusion that neither of us is going to change or wants to change. Currently, we are pretty much living as roommates. I sleep in my own bed in a different room. Basically next to zero touching for the last 7 months... its a big deal to get a hug and even then its awkward. We are civil with each other. We have a long history of arguing and bickering but in the last 7 months things have changed. There is less arguing but I think thats because we have both “checked-out”. There is no passion left so we don't have as much invested in the argument... if that makes sense. Why I say 7 months is because it really changed when she refused to let me buy her Christmas presents. I bought her a tablet and she refused it then a few weeks later, bought the exact same one. I am tired of trying to fix things and have tried for years upon years to make things better. Its never good enough. She is un-satisfiable.... by me at least. She is a good person and an excellent mother and I know she feels the same about me, but as far as the marriage goes, its dead and buried. I am 42 years old and I don't want to be living like this for the next 18 years until my children are grown and move out... but then again leaving my kids is probably the hardest thing I could ever do.

What I need to figure out, and what I am having a very difficult time deciding is, should I stay in this situation or leave? If it wasn't for my kids I would have been gone a long time ago (the second child was an accident, but of course I love my daughter very, very much). Financially, things will be VERY difficult if I leave as I will have to (want to really) give half my income as child support. I am a fairly responsible person and I feel duty bound to do so and its something I want to do, but that doesn't make it easier finacially. If left I would still see my kids two or three times a week for about 4 hours each time. However, because of tight finances, I would not be able to keep them overnight. The only way I could do that, and pay half my income to child support, is to get a second full time job, which I just simply cannot do.

So from your perspective should I stay in a 'dead' marriage and thus be able to remain living with my kids or should I leave, be free from the marriage but see my kids on a much more limited basis?

Posting this on an internet forum I don't expect the “perfect” answer. However, I am trying to gather as much perspective and points of view as possible to aid in making the best decision possible. I have been thinking about this for months and months.

Thank you.

 

[Donedirtcheap]

Well.... the number one issue to me is the kids and their future. I believe they need both of you and what a mother and father offer. One cant replace the other. Its not about you or her. You are both f ing up by jeopardizing the kids future. What happened to all the f ing & sucking and good times? It was there before, why cant it be there now? What changed? What are you or her doing different now than you were doing when everything was ok. You need to sit down and have a deep discussion with her and try to put it back together. Each of you need to take any blame that each has. I dont see any way out for either of you as I never compromise on kids.

They deserve both parents. Yours and her BS is not their issue. Forget all the room mates stuff and get back to solving the core problems. Forget the stubborn attitudes and I'm the way I am stuff. CHANGE. YES, you can do it, others have done it and in the end ended up with very successful children and pretty dang happy themselves.

I do sympathize as I know your pain. I wont say good luck to you as you will make your own "luck". I will say go forward with determination and hard work.

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

This is hard for me to say. I didnt have kids, so when i left it was easier. for me, i realized that she didnt love me nearly as much as i loved her. It was a fight around Christmas after i was laid off, and we coulndnt afford to buy expensive gifts for her family anymore. We had been pretty much just coexisting for a while now i realized.
But still, the point i want to get at is i had no kids, but it was very very hard to start over. Thats what it basically meant for me. You may not realize just how interwoven your life is. im not saying it shouldnt be done but i hope you dont find it as difficult as i did to restart your life.

Is there no way at all to rekindle your relationship? Maybe counseling? Have you actually talk your feelings out?

Your children will figure out that something is wrong if you try to 'grind it out', kids are smarter than you think. They will know when you aren't happy, and who can be happy in an unhappy environment?

to recap, it will be hard, you should talk honestly about it with her, divorce should be a last resort, and your kids are gonna be negatively impacted either way.

 

[decodancer]

A nine year old boy especially needs a full time dad. Look at statistics of kids in trouble and you will see how many are being raised by single moms. A few times, hours a week does not a father make. One of you gets remarried, new people and maybe new kids in the picture, your children's lives are turned upside down. In a case where a spouse or child is in danger, divorce is a must. That does not sound like the issue here. Counseling might help, have you guys actually sat down and tried coming up with a solution? Even living separate lives in the same home is better than not being there for your kids. My parents divorced once all of us were out of the house, I'm thankful every day that I had both of them when I was young. My father taught me so much and I wouldn't be the same person had he not been there.

 

[GotSmart]

I raised three daughters on my own. Their mother "checked out," we got a divorce, then I watched the children when she went on vacation. She never came back. She agreed I was the better parent to raise the children.

I am the last person to give advice on romance. Being in a toxic relationship is the worst thing to expose your children to. My parents lived in separate rooms for 15 years while I was at home. (They were married for 35 years) I think that might have caused some of my relationship problems.

I recommend seeing a professional mediator for a while. Then make your decision. NEVER say anything bad about their mother to anyone. Especially if it might get back to the kids.

You yourself say she is a good person. Perhaps you both need reminders on what was?

We are not there, but in this situation YOU need to remove the blame from the situation.~~~ Passion seldom lasts 15 years.

 

[Belinda2]

Stop kissing ass to the girl.
Have you said that your sorry? No matter if you are wrong or not, do it for the sake of the relationship.
Now, It's out of your control.
Don't waste the energy even fighting with the chick.
Get yourself a guy friend. Nice holiday. You should be grilling a burger, etc. Do guy things minus anything immoral.
You have a roof on your head. Be happy where your at.
Let HER leave. Let HER be the bad guy. Your giving her satisfaction because you are feeding into it.
Your giving her too much power.
Be a man and take back your power.

 

[sephson]

I was twelve when my parents got divorced.

It was the best thing that could have happened to my family. After the divorce, my parents got along much better, no more constant arguing. Fortunately their divorce was fairly easy, no custody battle or vindictiveness. My sister and I stayed with our mom and my dad would visit on the weekends. It took some time, but my relationship with my dad also improved when we were no longer living under the same roof. I slowly transitioned from a deep hatred for my father (No, I'm not sure exactly where that came from.) to a mutual respect and love for my father. Money was just as tight afterwards as before, so no change there.

I imagine things would have been a lot tougher for my family if my parents had stuck it out "for the children".

 

[One Awesome Inch]

Okay, I will add a couple of things... as I said things have been very rough for YEARS. However, we rarely, if ever yell or swear at each other. I am just not that kind of person.

Part of my concern is that if my children are raised around a dysfunctional relationship, their future relationships will be dysfunctional as well.

We've been to marriage counseling previously. The counselor wanted to see her separately and after about 3 or 4 more sessions she would not go any more. She said that he just kept focusing on all the things that were/are wrong with her and she did not want to hear it. I am willing to try counseling again, but I strongly feel its not going to prove fruitful. I just can't meet her needs as I guess she is what you call "high maintenance". Every possible thing that can be complained about is complained about. I cannot remember when the last time I have gotten a sincere compliment from her. Definitely years ago, if even then. I used to "walk on eggshells" continuously trying to not annoy her or make her angry. I tend not to do that now as, frankly, I cannot own her issues. She needs to figure herself out. I cannot do that for her.

So... while I definitely see how it *could* be better for the kids for me to stay, having them grow up witnessing this dysfunctional marriage cannot be good for them. Plus, wouldn't it be better for them for us to get separated while they are younger?

 

[GrinningPanther]

Unity Gain,

You, and many like you, are in a terrible spot. It can be very difficult to contemplate remaining trapped for many more years in a marriage that has lost its "loving feeling," and is actually draining and spirit-crushing.

Usually, questions (or situations) like yours lead to a debate as to what's best for the children. Indeed, many mental health professionals who came of age a generation or two ago claimed that if the parents weren't happy in the marriage, it was better for the children if the parents got divorced.

That view has come under very serious scrutiny by honest researchers and mental health practitioners in recent years. From what I can see, conventional wisdom is now that unless the marriage involves violence or abuse, most children, I say most...there are exceptions to every rule...will be far better off if their sense of stability is not shattered by the family breaking up.

Therefore, I would strongly urge you not to depend on the argument that "If I get a divorce it'll be better for my kids." I humbly submit that no, it probably won't.

But...having said that...I would like to offer a perspective I don't hear very often expressed. And that is as follows: Just because your kids will probably be more hurt by a divorce than by an unhappy marriage....does not necessarily mean that you are obligated to live in misery for the next 16 years. Your quality of life is important, too.

I don't think your children's quality of life, and their emotional welfare, is necessarily more morally compelling, than is yours. You have a responsibility to live your life well, too...and not only to try to help your children live well. As a father, you owe your children food, clothing, shelter, and as much kindness and leadership as you can muster until they can fend for themselves. You do not necessarily owe them to prevent them psychological pain at the cost of many, many years of your own misery. Of course you wouldn't have planned it this way, but now that the situation has developed, you must choose between poor alternatives.

I'm not suggesting it's a "slam dunk" or trivial decision. It's clearly not. But I am challenging the premise that the child's psychology must be assumed to be more important than the adult's. After all, if all goes "well," what is the goal of raising a child? To make them into an adult. Adults are important, too. I say, if you choose the route of divorce, look yourself in the mirror and say, "I deeply regret having to hurt my children, but remaining in the marriage would have crushed my spirit for too long. Yes, I chose my own interests, in this case, over those of my children. But I'm a good father in other ways--and my spirit is important, too...not just the spirits of my children.

I believe that being deeply honest with ourselves is a better choice...even if sometimes the honesty is not flattering to ourselves...and even if we must admit that we are not saints.

As you know, nobody else can make this decision for you...and it's one that many, many face.

I'm not advising you to divorce. Or not to divorce. But I did want to offer the above perspective. I do wish you well in your grappling with a very important issue.

Best to you,
GP

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Hey UG I can't advise on what you have to do but I know that people get divorced everyday, raise children that grow up functional, maintain loving relationships. There are also marriages that stay together that raise very dysfunctional famillies. I am not sure the traditional familly model works for everyone. All I can suggest is to put a good support network in place, of friends and family and use it. :heart:

 

[Zil]

been there done that. If you haven't, go get some family counseling. If wife doesn't come with, go alone with the children. Along the NE there is a group called Family Services. I'm sure there are similar throughout usa.

 

[karl]

I seldom give this type of advice, and keep in mind that it is worth only as much as any other opinion.
No one can give you the answer that is perfect for all concerned.
No matter what you do now will likely be questioned by you, your spouse, your kids and any one even remotely connected down the road.
Tough place - damned either way, but you are not the first or the last go down this road...
From my experience, if I could have a do over, I would get into counseling and get my own BS figgered out...there is rarely a case where one is perfect and the other completely wrong....there is usually enough blame to go around....if you were perfect you wouldn't have chosen a crazy mate, eh?
Be the best parent you can, get help with being honest with yourself and fix you, since we are only in charge of ourselves.
Healing you gives those around you a chance and incentive to do the same.
Good luck and lessons to all concerned.

 

[wagoneer]

Being in a relationship without communication is un-bearable My 2 boys are grown 20 and 22 and have provided a roof for both. I respect my spouse/roomate. After 25 years she grew tired of my drinking and checking out. Unfortunately she cannot provide for herself or would have left a while ago. Paying for a mortgage in SF is costly and being done with that would love to sell the house and give her half . I would recommend you father the kids and work on your plans to be solo and regain some "who am I" time. Planning and working on your future can be quite rejuvenating, give it a try I wish you well, no one said it was going to be easy

 

[SoulRaven]

Sit her down and have an honest heart to heart talk, tell her that you know you aren't perfect, but you love her and would prefer to make your relationship work.

Have her make a list of your good and bad points, and the good times you have had together, you do the same for her. With luck, both of your good lists will out weigh the bad. Regardless, each of you will get a better understanding of what your problems really are, and get a better insight into whether things can be fixed.

Listing the good times might bring back some fond memories of the way it used to be, and conjure up an idea of how things could be good again.

Explain to her that she is your sweetheart and you want to make her happy, but you're a guy and don't have a clue how to do it, but if she could give you some positive encouragement, you're willing to try.

Be open and honest, tell her that you want and need a physical relationship, how you long to hold her close again, and how you can make this work even if you are a big dummy. Tell her you need her help to make you into that man she fell madly in love with again. Tell her that you can't do it on your own, but with her help, you're willing to try.

Will it work? Who knows. But you will know in your heart that you did everything within your power to make it work.

If you give her the power to make it work, but make it look like it's her idea, it might just work out. I'll be rooting for you!

 

[mconlonx]

Wife #1 and I split up when our son was 14. I stayed in his life -- he stayed with me every other weekend, initially, and then every other weekend, and then half of every week when I moved back to the area. I still stay over at his apartment a couple nights every week.

He's mentally disabled and while he went through a lot emotionally as a result of our split, I don't know that he'd have turned out much different if we'd stayed together.

After 16 yrs of marriage and a total of near 20 years together, things just stopped working for us and we decided to split. No one big thing, 1000 little things. A gradual thing which happened over many years until. We'd asked each other numerous times before if we should stay together or split up and we'd always agreed to stay together... until the time we didn't.

Love wasn't enough to keep it together, nor a mutually satisfying physical relationship.

Conundrum: There are times I regret leaving.There are other times I regret not leaving sooner.

 

[akrvbob]

I have no idea what you should do!!

Here's what I did:
My youngest was 8 when we divorced. My wife actively hated me! I moved into a van and determined to spend every possible second making my sons and ex-wifes life better in any way I could. We had a very rough first year, with her even threatening to get social services involved so I could only see them with protective services there. I kept serving her as best as I could whenever I could. I made living amends to her whenever and however i could

Slowly it turned around and eventually we became better friends than we had ever been. I remember one time some old friends came into town and we went out to eat together like we had as two couples and it was better than it had ever been!

Eventually she let me park the van in front of her house and use her electricity. My van became like another room that the kids came out and spent time with me. The came home from school, saw me, then went inside and saw their mom and did homework had dinner then they came out and watched TV with me or played a video game or whatever.

Was the divorce bad for the kids? Probably. Did they always know they were loved and cared for and mom and dad were there for them? Definitely!

After 6 years my youngest son decided he would rather live with me and so I sold the box van, bought a 24 foot travel trailer and put it in an RV park and we lived in it together for a year.
Bob

 

[caseyc]

As Dr. Phil would say, kids rather come from a broken home than to stay in a broken home. Sounds like you have a broken home. Worse, sounds like there is little to no hope left. Once you've determined there's no hope left, you may as well leave. Good luck to you.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Hate to say it, but you are better off to leave the house as soon as possible. The kids may even be better off as the tension will release. You can still be around every day, but get out of the house, and get a different address ASAP.

Besides eliminating the tension from both yours and your kids lives, there is a very good legal reason to get out; In most states if a woman calls the police and tells them that you have threatened her or touched her in a way she did not like, that is it... you are done. Arrested, restraining orders for her AND the kids, and any divorce goes her way across the board (and say goodbye to your 2A rights and all your guns... for life!). You can spend thousands of dollars and years fighting it of course, all while being legally barred from your kids. Make no mistake... if she is talking to her friends, family, co-workers, and/or divorce lawyers about your marriage problems, she IS getting this exact same advice (to call the police on you). It is the latest craze in divorces, to get the other arrested for domestic violence and it is supremely easy to do. Get out!

As for your finances, you do not (and should not) give half of your income. What you give HER is based on a formula (different for each state, you can find that info at your local courthouse website) and depends on BOTH of your incomes. For instance, when my child was living with me, my Ex wrote me a check for nearly $500 every month (less than 20% of her income). They now live together and I write her a check for $200 because of our incomes which differ by about $2000 between her and I. Of course, I too want to do more than the minimum, so I give my son his allowance (so she does not have too) and he has his own savings account (fed by me) for HIM to use, not her. On this matter, you should talk with a divorce attorney as you will be sending her money for many years.

 

[Patrick46]

I've never been through this, but I'm liking what these last post have shown.

Happy kids are raised by happy parents. I don't see why it matters if you're together or not, and I've yet to see it working out any differently. (Miserable parents raising happy children???)

I DO think it matters alot that you and their mother have a respectful working relationship, as this teaches the kids that even if and when problems do arrive in a marriage, you can still be civil with each other and still work together as a team. I also tend to think that this is onna the best lessons anyone can teach your kids.


Another thing is if you and your ex are through, and you're still living there, then how can you move foreward as your own person?? If you happen to meet a nice gal somewhere, are you gonna bring her home to meet your ex??? (how completely awkward would THAT be????!!!!) :s

And seeing that this forum is about living in a van, much like Bob did, I'd think that now was the time to start vandwelling as it's such a cost effective way to live...especially at a time when you need it most!

Naturally, the most important thing, is to LOVE THOSE KIDS!!!

Good luck to you.

 

[Van-Tramp]

To share my case;

In 2010 the relationship (unmarried) I had for 16 years had grown unbearable. We tried to simply "live together" for years "for our son". I gave it everything I had to solve the problems and to best raise our son together. One night we had yet another of our weekly shouting matches in which our 12 year old was always overhearing. She decided to escalate it and use physical force against me (pushing & shoving) and tearing my T-shirt. The argument ended with her throwing a heavy glass drinking glass at my face before my son (!!!) came into the room and pulled me out. She then called the police on to have me arrested, but found herself arrested for domestic violence based solely on the torn shirt evidence.

It took her nearly 2 months before she could see her son again, and it was only because I worked hard to get the restraining order removed (she posed no threat to me or our son). She had to live elsewhere while this was going on... paying for two rents. She came here from the Philippines at age 3, and the court was going to deport her even though she was now over 40 and had a child here. I had to fight for her on that too. The court gave me full physical and financial custody of our child. I found out, after being served papers, that she had had me removed from the lease of our place a few months prior (without my knowledge) and her attorney started the eviction process against me. The courts would not allow that either.

Once the restraining order was released, we were able to start discussing the problems. First priority (for her) was to get back home, but the courts would still not allow her to live in the same house as me. I decided instead to do what I wanted to do, full-time in the van, and leave her to return to the house. My son chose to stay with her. 18 months later and after weekly DV and anger management counseling (at a huge cost to her) she was allowed off probation. It was humiliating and financially devastating to her (more than $10,000 and she didn't even fight any of it, that is just fines, probation, counseling, and attorney fees). She nearly lost her job, her family, and was almost deported to a country she did not know.

As it turns out, Colorado has a "must arrest" policy for any and all DV calls. One of the two parties MUST be arrested on every DV call. The police on the scene become the Judge and Jury, determine who is [most ?] at fault and that is it, life ruined. While she may have needed some emotional help, she did not deserve what this state did to her. I'm 6 foot and armed, she is 5'2" at 110 lbs and poses zero physical threat to me. But, she chose to make that call that night... one that she will never do again I'm sure.

A few big pluses came from all of this though;
1) she got counseling and is slightly better
2) the relationship between her and I as parents is better
3) the relationship between her and our son is a million times better (this is the biggest plus for me)
4) the relationship between me and our son is better as well
5) My son's grades took an almost immediate increase (less tension in the house)
6) I got to go on the road full-time (without the guilt trip, in fact I was the hero by doing so) and I'm loving it

Other lessons learned that night.
I did not talk with the police that night. I "took the 5th" as usual. She talked with them, told them the whole story (truthfully) and basically admitted to domestic violence. The police are NOT there to help you, they are there to make an arrest. I needed no help from them and did not make the call. Do not make the mistake of talking with the police without an attorney present. She has paid for it dearly and still paying now, 4 years later, and will continue to the rest of her life (job interviews, background checks, etc)

I tell my story to those who listen for a few reason; 1) It is too easy to get someone you dislike in that moment arrested and ruin his/her life. 2) The DV laws in the country now are not "innocent until proven guilty" and someone's life is going to be destroyed. 3) Living with me significant other has turned out to be the riskiest thing I have ever done in my life. I will never (NEVER!) live with my sexual partner again. It is simply too easy to be ruined by one stupid phone call.

I hope this helps