Man living in 5th wheel on his own land harrassed

[RonDean]

Really mixed feelings here... I agree with some regulations that protect public health and safety are necessary. Not so much in favor of those that just try to maintain high-end property value when there are few (if any) alternatives for poor people to find housing.

I think the end result of these restrictions, gentrification, building only for the highest profit, and the current poor economic situation for an increasing number of the poor will create more and more lines of old beat-up (and often non-functional) RVs just parking on city streets and to hell with the laws. Unfortunately, we have also found these situations too often include people with other issues that very few of us like.

Making rules and laws that ignore the reality people actually face will only create more problems than it fixes.

 

[Sky]

In general the rules and regulations are well meant to help insure that people are living in safe habitations that reduce the risk of fire, of overcrowding and also ensure essential sanitation as well as water that is safe to drink and that waste is properly disposed of to reduce issues with an overpopulation of rodents and such. Furthermore they seek to protect the waters and lands from pollution.

But over the years laws can get so excessive that only the wealthy can comply with the regulations and the fees for inspections also skyrocket as do the property taxes. Some areas have gone so far that it is illegal to not be connected to utilities such as sewer, water, electric and you must have garbage service as well.

But there are still places in this country where there are not all that many restrictions, it is mostly in the more populated locations that they are that strict.

The advocates of the tiny house movement are busy trying to break down those barriers that prevent people from living a much more modest life in small sized dwellings with minimal grid utilities.

Fifth wheels, motorhomes and travel trailers are not classified as permanent dwelling spaces under any of the existing codes. So even some of the more rural county areas do have ordinances against using them for a dwelling as do most cities and towns.

Yes to a point I agree, but really the deep pockets especially corporations can and skirt such intentions of keeping property and people safe. Just recall 'slumlords' and the recent Florida condo collapse amidst so many other inferior building's and mold/rodent infestations. The laws are mostly for the peasants. After being in the trades,clearly the validity of what is deemed safe and necessary is quite controversial and ensuring the market value as well as manufacturing profits. And don't even get me started on what is considered safe drinking water given all the chemicals and flouride. The over regulation is an ends to a means, to manipulate who lives where and at what price. If the regulations really wanted to keep people safe they would be more informative, educational in assisting people to live affordably,than punitive.

 

[Jon Donahue]

I'm going to guess that the great majority of places in the west have such restrictions and it has nothing to do with hippies. Cochise Co in AZ is known for being cheap and permissive when it comes to building codes, permits, and inspections, but they don't allow you to park an RV on your land unless you have an approved septic, or are in the process of building a house. Getting away with it is another matter, and depends on how far in the sticks you are and your neighbors.

If you live in a place that allows someone to have a hog farm, then most likely living in an RV would also be allowed...

I live in Tombstone, Cochise County, AZ. True, you can only live in your RV while building your home. But we are a poor town, in spite of the tourism. Poor, like other small towns around here. And who would have the heart to throw someone out of the only place they could call home? Recently, a friend had to leave an apartment she had lived in for 18 years. Huge rent raise. I told her to come live in my little house, and that I'd move into my old RV. Legal or not, we are out West, and you do what's right. Now, she ended up moving to her daughter's place in California. But there will be other folks here losing out to the rent rises... and if they live in RVs and trailers, would you call the cops on them? I could never do that. My home's property value is far less important than all of us getting through this winter OK.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I also have mixed feelings about regular ordinances and 'code'.
About 5 years ago there was a fire in an Oakland artist warehouse during a dance party.
Dozens perished. Lost a few friends, and I know a few people who knew every single person who died in that fire.
That is a lot to deal with.
OTOH when I lived in that neighborhood I also lived in an artist warehouse. We got kicked out because the bedrooms were not tall enough for code.
The place had legit fire alarms. The kind that are wired back to a central unit which rings up the fire department every time someone burns something in the kitchen. They also had real deal sprinklers in all the bedrooms and common areas. So there was no fire code issue. It was just not 'to code' for how high the ceilings were in the bedrooms.
Bringing it up to code would mean massive renovation.
Now here is the thing, I used to work for a property manager. Picking up checks, maintenance, cleaning up/painting vacated apartments.
Because of that I know that many landlords/property management companies will deliberately get a code violation to empty out a unit they want to fix up. That way they get around any eviction hassles. And the amount they pay in fines (if any) is much less than they would pay a lawyer to file eviction notices and serve papers.
I used to listen to my boss joke about it with his friend who was also a small time slumlord.
"whats it gonna be this month Spike? Fire code or plumbing?"
I was also around for the 89 quake in the Bay Area. Terrifying experience.
In the aftermath a lot of my friends live/work warehouses in the south of Market area got red tagged.
The place I worked at did as well. We had to wear hardhats just to go in and remove our inventory.
But there were a lot of places getting red tagged that had zero damage. If you go back to that are now, most of those places are still standing and the only thing that changed is they are condos now, not artist spaces. So yeah, the code system is certainly open to abuse if you grease the right wheels.

 

[rruff]

But there will be other folks here losing out to the rent rises... and if they live in RVs and trailers, would you call the cops on them? I could never do that.

That's the "getting away with it" part. If your neighbor has an issue and code enforcement is hard core, then you might have a problem... because there is a law against it.

When I mention Cochise Co "opt out" and permissive building codes, sometimes someone will respond that they know of other places where people live in whatever they want and however they want... but usually this is because codes aren't enforced. It isn't because codes allow it. If you are willfully building against code you risk having your house torn down... for real. More likely they'll try to collect back taxes. If all your neighbors are doing it, and you are in a rural and hard to get to area, are poor, and especially if you have guns , then the authorities will probably leave you be.

 

[Sky]

I live in Tombstone, Cochise County, AZ. True, you can only live in your RV while building your home. But we are a poor town, in spite of the tourism. Poor, like other small towns around here. And who would have the heart to throw someone out of the only place they could call home? Recently, a friend had to leave an apartment she had lived in for 18 years. Huge rent raise. I told her to come live in my little house, and that I'd move into my old RV. Legal or not, we are out West, and you do what's right. Now, she ended up moving to her daughter's place in California. But there will be other folks here losing out to the rent rises... and if they live in RVs and trailers, would you call the cops on them? I could never do that. My home's property value is far less important than all of us getting through this winter OK.

Cheers Jon. Nah it is time people put on their grown up pants and rather than call the parent figures and ratting out a fellow/fella human just go be civil and have a civil conversation. Did we not all learn this in our indoctrination schooling in kindergarten? I had a new dweller putting up an outhouse and two tents on the lower road from the hwy to my place. In the summer with the worse drought yet and she was doing sage burns. I simply went to introduce myself and bring a welcome gift and she was ready to tell me more than I cared to know of her plans. However I was then able to state that I was a bit concerned about burns given the ripe climate for fires and the winds always blow in my direction although it would have 2 miles to get to me, still not favorable with winds and the fires rate of travel. She assured me she was doing so safely and in the early am but I encouraged her to save it to do closer to the monsoon season and surprisingly she did. And everything worked out. Frankly people just trying to survive the corporate coup and live, are more reasonable than when I lived in urban so called civilization 27 yrs ago as if they are under the radar they want to be left alone and not upset their neighbors unless their cooking meth. then that is a whole different animal I am glad I have not had to encounter but below zero drops and snow plus arms keep that kind of riff raf away.

 

[Tony's Dream]

"The land use regulations are there to please others in the neighborhood. Someone spending $300,000 to build a house doesn't want the guy next door living in a vehicle or tent."

I totally understand what you are saying, but I don't like the neighbors telling me what to do. If they want to control the houses around them, buy the whole area and sell the houses under a home owners association with rules. Then I know that going in. I buy a house, pay my taxes, and keep my property looking nice......if I want to live in an RV, that is my business.

 

[rruff]

If they want to control the houses around them, buy the whole area and sell the houses under a home owners association with rules.

Or... they make it a city or county-wide rule...

 

[MissKitty]

Pahrump, NV has a special zoning for land used for an RV. Cannot have any permanent dwelling structures. Sheds, garages, are okay. However, the property cannot be occupied year round. The RV can stay, though.

This is why I am an Anarchocapitalist.

 

[Abbott]

Really mixed feelings here... I agree with some regulations that protect public health and safety are necessary. Not so much in favor of those that just try to maintain high-end property value when there are few (if any) alternatives for poor people to find housing.

I think the end result of these restrictions, gentrification, building only for the highest profit, and the current poor economic situation for an increasing number of the poor will create more and more lines of old beat-up (and often non-functional) RVs just parking on city streets and to hell with the laws. Unfortunately, we have also found these situations too often include people with other issues that very few of us like.

Making rules and laws that ignore the reality people actually face will only create more problems than it fixes.

I live near a very expensive small city and there are a few city blocks that have RVs parked bumper to bumper the length of the block (s) that people are using as residence. The city actually passed an ordnance last year allowing it. Some nearby business's have had rental fences put up around their properties to protect the buildings during off hours. Someone who owns thier own property should have advantages IMHO.

 

[Abbott]

Just to clarify my above opinion. Being the Internet I should know better then leaving something un-said. This being the forum that I posted in I was thinking that we all know the differance between "Nomads" that often use this forum and Street People with substance abuse issues.

 

[txmnjim]

Just to clarify my above opinion. Being the Internet I should know better then leaving something un-said. This being the forum that I posted in I was thinking that we all know the differance between "Nomads" that often use this forum and Street People with substance abuse issues.

not all street people have substance abuse problems. many have mental illness of some sort and then many are just poor with no support. i met a lady a few years ago and we became FB friends. she dropped out for more than a year and when i finally reconnected w her she said she had been living in her car since she couldnt afford rent anywhere and had no family. thankfully she found a nice family that is renting her a room for very cheap.

 

[Honeys Park]

Ironic to me, anyone on this thread supporting building codes being used against a man living in a 5th wheel on his own land. A lot of places, including the city next to me are making it illegal to sleep in your camper for even a night, so nomads beware. Wal Marts and Cities going off limits for your night stay etc. I'm reminded of the words of Niemoller and will paraphrase "First they came for the guy in the 5th wheel on his own land, but since I wasn't living on my own land I said nothing....."

And yes, I know, internet. It's why I hate forums and was absent off here for years, and probably will do so again.

 

[Abbott]

not all street people have substance abuse problems. many have mental illness of some sort and then many are just poor with no support. i met a lady a few years ago and we became FB friends. she dropped out for more than a year and when i finally reconnected w her she said she had been living in her car since she couldnt afford rent anywhere and had no family. thankfully she found a nice family that is renting her a room for very cheap.

I never said that "all" of them do.

 

[rruff]

... many are just poor with no support...

I've met quite a few who aren't looking for support either! Basically enjoying the same freedom that many of us appreciate, but on a very low budget.

 

[txmnjim]

I've met quite a few who aren't looking for support either! Basically enjoying the same freedom that many of us appreciate, but on a very low budget.

i'm sure (and i hope to be one also when i finally retire!) but i mainly meant family support as i'm sure i would have been homeless many times w/o my family

 

[Jon Donahue]

And aesthetics are personal opinions. I derive equal pleasure from looking at my little blue 1910 house and at my little blue 1991 Lazy Daze. Both are excellent functional designs; both are far superior aesthetically to any crowded suburban tract home. There are other old RVs and trailers here and there around Tombstone, same as there are other unique little kit houses that came in boxcars during the silver booms from 1880 to 1910. Aesthetically, my town has texture. Substance, Not cookie-cutter. We are a secret oasis on a windswept Mesa out in the middle of nowhere, a very special place where the past is all around and still alive and well.

 

[crofter]

Sounds like people are reporting experience of Discrimination against Dwellers on their own land through restrictive zoning ordinances pretty much in all states?

When did the homesteader rights leave us? Some states still record "right of homestead" but I guess that must not mean anything.

I get the impression that the goal of the restrictive zoning against dwellers on their own land is a "Not in my backyard" way of thinking combined with the desire to fleece people out of their hard earned money as much as possible through high rents for S&B as well as high rents for space rent for an RV. In Oregon you can pay as much to park an RV as you would pay to rent an S&B, but if you own land there are incredibly high taxes on microscopic plots of land also to pay for.

I have not experienced the cheap RV living in Arizona, although it is much cheaper than Oregon for sure and there are no ice storms. In Arizona the electricity was recently hiked and may make summer living with Air Conditioning cost prohibitive in AZ. I think cheap living is still an option for public lands nomads who are full timers. Much more expensive to have a home base and be a part time dweller.
-crofter

 

[RonDean]

Tough subject... Made worse by so many overlapping but very different groups. Too many people are identified as homeless that have their full-time homes on wheels and just choose to be Nomadic. If we're just going from point a to b and pull over to get a few hours of sleep we suddenly become a lawbreaker. There are very real issues with income not meeting high rental costs that do make people look for alternate places to live (vans, RVs, CouchSurfing, shared spaces, etc.) until they can find affordable housing. Then there are the real homeless that are living in tents, tarps, and beat-up RVs lined up on the street. And spread across all these groups there are some with drug or mental issues. You don't have to be homeless to have other problems.

Finally (?), there is the original report of the 5th wheel on his owned property having a problem. I see this one as a planning/zoning issue with very different causes and solutions than most of the others. If we aren't more specific in what we are talking about, we just end up talking past one another.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think there is something else at play here:

There is a National Building Code for residential that most (if not all) local governments have adopted as their local code. The code requires a final inspection and certificate of habitation in order for you to live full time in a structure on your land.

No RV built could qualify for a certificate.

Now it comes down to the local government's will or manpower to enforce.
Many small communities don't have the manpower or don't care until one of the many alphabet soup of federal or state bureaucracies start paying attention.
Then they can get very picky about enforcement for a while.