It. Just. Dies.

[Richard]

No warning, no humanly perceptible indication anything is amiss. It just dies.

It happens infrequently. On one occasion, while driving, it stalled and then began running again on its own after what seemed a 5-10 second delay. Once, i shifted into neutral and started it manually while coasting. Other times, I've had to coast to a stop and after some sitting still and occasionally trying to restart it (so far, anywhere from 2 to 30 minutes), it starts up again. On the times when it doesnt start, it cranks strong but doesnt even try to ignite.

I replaced cap, rotors, plugs, and wires just last month and it was fine for a couple weeks.

For those who may recall my post from last month, i suppose this might be considered a continuation of that scenario; or not,, but for recent background info, that post is at https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-Strong-exhaust-smell

I thought maybe a fuel filter replacement might be a reasonable place to start but my rig has the fuel filter in combination with the fuel pressure regulator, which my Haynes manual indicates is not a user-replacement item. Instead, that component is embedded within a larger fuel assembly that's installed atop my 35-gal. fuel tank. Somebody smack the engineer responsible for that configuration because wouldn't it make sense to cut an access door in the van floor vs. having to drop the fuel tank for access?!  :dodgy:

Anyway, i suppose the computer could also be a culprit here. I last checked the codes 3+days ago and only misfire codes were present (seems odd to me because I've never taken notice of any hints of misfiring).

As was the case last month, I'm a week away from financial resources so if there's a reasonable chance of diagnosing this without paid expertise, that would be great for me. Otherwise, ive got 6-days left of potentially snarling traffic in Albuquerque.

As always, thanks in advance for your help!

 

[jimindenver]

Fuel pump?

 

[B and C]

Fuel pump?

The fuel pump uses the gas in the tank to cool the pump.  I (almost) never allow my fuel to get below a 1/4 tank.  If your problem occurs when the fuel is low, it could well be the fuel pump is heating up.  If it has not been changed with 230K miles on it, it is way past due if the fuel level has been run low too often.  I changed mine at 100K just to be on the safe side as I don't want to be left on the side of the road.  Money well spent?  Dunno, but it gives me piece of mind (the little bit of mind I have left)

Your throttle position sensor needs adjusting from reading your last posts.  The PO probably changed it but did not know how to adjust it.

A mechanic will need to get involved since your problem has not gone away.  Hard to troubleshoot from here :s

Good luck!

 

[highdesertranger]

stern wake, calling stern wake. my bet would be the computer connections. stern has dealt with this issue. if he doesn't reply, PM him. highdesertranger

 

[MikeRuth]

If I'm reading this right your 1996 uses one ignition coil, and you didn't mention replacing that when you did the cap, rotor and wires.

I agree I hate just tossing parts at a problem. but these coils are cheap ($20.00 or less) and at it's age worthy of replacement. This doesn't sound like a fuel issue to me.

I say this cause years ago I had a Toyota PU that drove me crazy and it was the ignition coil. sucker would just shut down when it felt like it and yet, seemingly every freaking time I did a spark test it passed. New coil, problem gone.

 

[gargoyle]

Not sure if you got a Mass Airflow Sensor or not?
But your symptoms sound exactly like a vehicle issue I had once. Random stall, etc....
New MAF Sensor and no more stalling problems. Disconnect battery before doing new install. It clears codes and saves you shorting out new sensor.
Lots of auto stores will do free diagnostics, run code and see whats off kilter.

(looking at your old post you say it is EFI, so MAF is likely)

 

[29chico]

Those years of Ram vans have been known to have issues with the electrical connections between the main board in the PCM powertrain control module (often called ECU) and the wiring harness that connects to it.  Your van fits the behavior pattern of the above mentioned malady.  Plus doing the below suggested test is free as it does not involve throwing parts at the van and hoping for the best.

I suggest that you do the wiggle test.  Do this by grabbing the connector between the PCU and it's wiring harness and giving it a wiggle while the engine is running.  If the engine acts up or stalls you have the tiger by the tail so to speak.

I would also suggest that you find a place for your van where it can sit for a while you dig into this issue.  Doing the above wiggle test may make your rig no longer run.

I am a trained diagnostician.  That being said, SternWake has lived the messed up PCM connector issue and has gone as far as repairing the problem successfully by doing engine brain salad solder surgery on it...

 

[SternWake]

Dodges across more years and into the Jeep years all have issues with the ECM/PCM connectors.

The wiggle test is pretty reliable, Just lightly stress the wire bundles going into or out of the ECM and listen for the tone of the engine to change or just outright stall.

If so, perhaps tying up the wire bundle with Zip ties holding it in position just so.... can be a temporary fix that can last for years.  I got away with it for nearly 10, but eventually it required the reflowing of the solder and an entirely new ( junkyard) connector spliced in place of the old.

Also a possibility is the quality of the Pin socket contact areas of the individual circuits within the connectors themselves.

Old Dielectric grease often has the person who pulled the plug declare it is just fine, because of the presence of the grease, but this is not wise.  I have found extremely oxidized contacts that were immersed in Dielectric grease their whole lives.

however With some Caig Deoxit D5, the connector which I had prevoiusly declared pristine after using CRC QED cleaner, proved the contacts were far from oxidation free.

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-D5S-6-D...=1478228541&sr=8-1&keywords=caig+deoxit+d5s-6

I bought this kit with a bunch of samples of many of their products:
https://www.amazon.com/DeoxITKit-In...8&sr=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=caig+deoxit+d5s-6+kit

These were able to get inside the Sockets:
https://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-Craft...&sr=8-3-fkmr0&keywords=tamiya+precision+swabs

These help to flush grease and wipe product on contacts for better effect:
 https://www.amazon.com/Dentek-Slim-...8228680&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=den+tek+brishes

My ECM, the wire bundles eventually broke the solder contacts on the circuit boards, where the pins attached.

I removed the silicone potting and reflowed and added solder to the 14 pin connectors pins, January of 2015, and  not a stall since .  I was stressing this procedure, but ultimately it proved to be pretty simple.

I believe that year ramvan also has a crankshaft position sensor on the transmission bell housing which can also cause stalling.

 

[Richard]

Wiggle test didn't affect the running engine, at least not to my perception. I wiggled a bunch of wiring while running, to the same end. That was unnerving because I knew that one little wiggle could do me in (living in van + low finances = disaster if it won't restart).

I'm going to consider this outcome a 'good thing' because while i don't yet know what's wrong, at least I'm reasonably confident about one thing that's not the problem, and it's still running. Baby steps via process of elimination, I suppose

I guess the ignition coil is the next easiest & inexpensive option but that -- along with the other possibilities -- will have to wait until i get paid next week.

The point about fuel tank levels got me thinking back to the first time this happened. It was the first week of my owning the van. The fuel gauge had just dipped below a quarter tank but i understood that to mean I had 8-ish gallons left. I went out to start it and it cranked fine but wasn't even trying to ignite; just a strong cranking over. After waiting 5-minutes or so, it started right up and i dismissed it as a fluke incident. That was back in May.

From then until about 2 weeks ago, i don't recall any other stalling incidents. I'm also the type to typically keep the tank on the fuller side but there were a couple times in July & August when it got down to about 3+ish gallons.

Just last week i drove from NM to IN and back, and no stalling. It had stalled 4-5 times the week before that trip, and it's stalled about as many times since. In town, at 40mph or below. And once, with a freshly filled tank. It seems not to stall on the highway (I'm a cruise control fan so if it had stalled on the interstate I'm confident I'd have noticed a lurch in momentum as the van decelerated). Don't know if any of that is useful info but figured I'd share it just in case.

If nothing else, my challenges along this line illustrate the risks one may invite if one chooses, as i did, to jump into vandwelling with little mechanical savvy, few tools, and zero financial 'oh shit' funds on hand. That said, thank you all for helping me through my folly.

 

[cyndi]

If nothing else, my challenges along this line illustrate the risks one may invite if one chooses, as i did, to jump into vandwelling with little mechanical savvy, few tools, and zero financial 'oh shit' funds on hand. That said, thank you all for helping me through my folly.

Don't beat yourself up too badly. Some of us don't have other options available to us. And others (me) kept an emergency fund for years, then got hit hard over and over again. A year later, I still haven't recouped my emergency fund. shit happens, all day long.

 

[rvpopeye]

Well , you eliminated one cause so progress.........
Intermittent problems are the hardest to diagnose..

 

[Gary68]

stop by a couple mechanics,tell them whats going on and ask how much for a diagnostic,they should be able to hook it up to their computer and find out exactly whats going on

 

[SternWake]

When it stalls, do the dashboard lights come on?


If they do not, it could be a failing PCM/ECM, and not just the connector.

There is a way to check  stored computer codes yourself by turning the key on and off twice and leaving it on. the check engine light will flash.

4 flashes a pause then 2 more flashes would be a code 42

Expect to see a code 12 and a code 55.  If you see no codes at all, this points more toward the ECM/PCM failing

If it is OBD2, I forget year they switched from 1 to 2, it will display PO0047 or something

Google Mopar diagnostic codes.

The codes do not tell you what is wrong, they tell you which sensor is reading something out of whack.  From there the diagnostics can begin, but say a MAP sensor code comes up.  It does not mean the map sensor is faulty, only that the map sensor is reading manifold absolute pressure outside its expected values, and this could be caused by low fuel pressure, misfiring, or even a failing ECM that is causing stuttering and backfiring.

If you want to throw a part at it, I would choose the crankshaft position sensor before the Coil.

 

[Richard]

When it stalls, do the dashboard lights come on?
If they do not, it could be a failing PCM/ECM, and not just the connector.

No lights when it stalls. My check engine light doesn't come on with the key in the ln position (other lights do, e.g., gen, airbags, oil). Last week, on my way back to Albuquerque from Indianapolis, the check engine light lit up and stayed on during highway driving. I exited thd hwy and had auto zone read the codes. Only codes that existed were one for each cyl misfiring, and the more general random misfire code. I checked again tonight and they're still the only codes being read, and that was about 15 minutes following a series of no-start incidents.

There is a way to check  stored computer codes yourself by turning the key on and off twice and leaving it on. the check engine light will flash.

4 flashes a pause then 2 more flashes would be a code 42

Expect to see a code 12 and a code 55.  If you see no codes at all, this points more toward the ECM/PCM failing

The check engine light doesn't respond to the diagnostic key on/off sequence. Tried it again tonight just in case it started working since last time i tried it but it neither alights nor flashes.

If it is OBD2, I forget year they switched from 1 to 2, it will display PO0047 or something

It's obd2, and conveniently, there's a code table in my Haynes manual. I kinda wish i had a more helpful code besides the various misfires

If you want to throw a part at it, I would choose the crankshaft position sensor before the Coil.

Thanks, I'll price one tomorrow.

 

[bullfrog]

Key in the on position engine not running, the first third of a turn I believe is a lamp check position and all indicator lights should illuminate. If you have seen the bulb light when driving odds are the bulb is good but the ground is bad or circuit is open. I believe a Haynes manual will have a trouble shooting chart for this but it has been years since I looked maybe someone can check for you.

 

[steamjam1]

OBD II came into trucks and vans in 1995/1996. Code 55 means "End of codes" in ODB1. If the check engine light doesnt come on when you insert key and start.. It usually means there is something wonky with the ECU.

 

[SternWake]

That the CEL light came on when driving, but does not when you turn the key to on, not start, could be the red flag here.

I am not 100% sure on that model year.

When mine stalled, only the oil pressure light would come on, dimly. No CEL. it would crank no problem but never start until it sat for a period of time, Or I went a ECM connector awigglin.

After a stall, When I'd wiggle the connector with key to on, I'd listen for the Fuel pump/ASD relay to click on.

Towards the end, I had to wiggle the connector until both my TBI injectors fired AND the voltage regulator circuit was complete, and then try and maintain that wire location/orientation with Zip ties and wedges and foam, ect.

The correct remanufactured ECM is not very cheap or easy to procure. Bunch of different model numbers available within same model year.

I'd start researching it now just in case.

I would consider the Caig Deoxit D5 product on any sensor/ connector you decide to open.

Also, make sure the main ground cable, from Engine battery to firewall( behind battery) , and to the engine block are clean and tight.

You can't determine 'clean' unless you unbolt them and inspect mating surfaces.

Anytime electrical wackyness appears, eliminate the grounds as culprits first.

 

[djkeev]

Odd erratic like this makes me immediately think "ignition switch".

Burned internal contacts, burned connectors and even a buldging key chain with too many keys and dodads weighing a half ton moving the key itself as it swings while driving.

Dave

 

[Richard]

Okay, I've got a diagnosis and thought I would share it here in case there's any important feedback for me to consider before my appointment this coming Wednesday morning.

I was told to turn the key to the on position and listen for the fuel pump to run. My fuel pump is an all-in-one assembly that sits on top of the gas tank. I never really took notice of that sound before. But, I did as instructed and when it starts, I think I hear a faint hum back there. In contrast, when it doesn't start, I don't hear anything back there.

As a kind has a kind of confirmation test, it was suggested that I spray starting fluid directly into the air intake while its cranked over to see if it starts. The reasoning being if it does start then the problem is that it's not getting fuel. One of the guys from an auto parts store sprayed fluid while I crank it over and it did start and run terribly rough for about 5 seconds and then stop. He confidently declared, yep that's definitely the fuel pump.

Being as it's Saturday as I type this, there are very few places open. I called Pep Boys service center to get a quote from them and parts and labor for the fuel pump assembly replacement, which includes the fuel filter and the pressure regulator, comes to $677.

Since they have to drop the gas tank in order to get to the fuel assembly, I think it makes good sense to get that cleaned out as well. I asked the Pep Boys service center if cleaning out the gas tank was part of that cost and he said no, that's a separate fee that involves a little bit more labor time. I asked him how much and he said $105.

Now, for me, an $800 repair is quite a bit to swallow. If I have to do it then I have to do it and I will. But before I shell out 800 bucks and cry in public like a baby, I thought I'd pass along that information here to get one final round of feedback from you all.

As always, thank you all for your time and help.

 

[highdesertranger]

doing the starting fluid test tell you that it's not getting fuel. IT DOESN"T TELL YOU THE FUEL PUMP IS BAD. I typed that in caps to get your attention. the next step would be to see if the fuel pump is getting power. it could be the fuel pump but I would hate to see you replace it and it not be it. there are several things that could cause no power to the fuel pump. CPU, relay, fuse, oil pressure switch, bad wire, bad connection. highdesertranger