Is the USA a nation in decline?

[Dust-In-the-Wind]

Thanks for the book recommendation, C-D. Having interacted with a lot of politicians up close and personal, I can tell you that the situation is a lot scarier than you think. Being self sufficient is crucial. Being away from big metro areas is even more important. After Hurricane Sandy, there were people pulling guns on each other at the gas stations, and that only took 24 hours. Check out whats happening right now, in Venezuela. I saw that happen in New Orleans after Katrina. Having been involved in disaster recovery response for 15 years, it gives you a different perspective on what a short distance it is between a negative event and anarchy. Stay safe out there.

 

[cyndi]

You all are doing a great job of keeping away from the political side of this discussion!

Thanks! It's appreciated!!!

 

[Sameer]

I frankly don't ascribe to Gloom and Doom and the Fear.
In the long term this Country has made great progress and so has our Democracy. Rather than read some kind of pop-culture book that isn't based in fact...Study Civics and Political Science and discover the power in the 'Two Parties'...not the philosophy. How the Parties, at the local level start their quest to have in office candidates who do follow their philosophy. The City Council Level. Then how the State party works then the National Party works. Check out the power of the DNC and the RNC. You don't even know how this works..do you?
IT IS ABOUT THE VOTE! If you think the country is in decline. Did you vote? Don't like the way Washington is heading or our Country is heading....Did you Vote? All these people in office making decisions for you and the rest of the country....Who did you vote for? Why do you think the power of the DNC and the RNC comes from getting out the vote and registering voters? Complain all you want but Democracy is participatory.
Look at the progress our Democracy has made since the 'Grapes of Wrath' migrations during the 30's. Social Security benefits, etc. Don't think things are going well in America? Do something about it. I grew up under Eisenhower. Then came Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and the rest. Presidents assassinated and people running for office shot at.. Riots at the political conventions..Riots in the streets.I have lived through absolute Chaos here in America..Political icons like Malcolm X..Huey Newton..Che Guevara.Angela Davis...Anti-War demonstrations..this liberation army or that Liberation Army, etc. All Democracies change and evolve. This is what our Democracy is doing. I guarantee the process is healthy and working just fine. Who said Democracy and the United states is in decline, not me. The life of my Father was better then the life of his Father who came here fleeing Communism and religious persecution. My life is better than my Fathers and my Sons life will be better than mine. Don't ascribe the the Gloom and Doom and the Fear.

 

[Dust-In-the-Wind]

Winston Churchill ... ... "the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter".

Ever watch those "man on the street" interviews where people are asked their opinion about something the average 6th grade civics class student SHOULD know? Scary.

Another quote: "He who robs Peter to pay Paul will always be able to count on Paul's vote"

 

[Sameer]

Sameer - you repeatedly use the term democracy to describe American government. 

You're mistaken.

This nation was founded as a constitutional republic.

It is very much our loss that people now think and act as if this is merely a democracy.

 When I say Democracy I mean the political process.  I don't think the 'clinical definition' matters.  I only speak of my experience as a poor urban kid growing up in Los Angeles walking distance from downtown.  Semantics are irrelevant.  Went to school, worked a Teamster Job and lived a remarkable life...the American Dream in my eyes considering my neighborhood.  Active all my life in my chosen Political Party.  Now traveling the country with my monthly Teamster money and Social Security.  This election year someone will head our nation.  Decided by the 'get out the vote' and voter registration effort by each political party.  On election day they will take the country down one path or the other.  Decided by the voter.  If we don't like what they are doing...we will vote them out like we did the peanut farmer.  What ever you want to call this country...Constitutional republic or ?...that's what will happen.   Everything is working out just fine.
"It is very much our loss that people now think and act as if this is merely a democracy."  This statement you made is unclear.  What do you mean 'think and act'?  How is this 'our loss'?  Does you statement refer to the thousands of people active in Party politics?

 

[Mobilesport]

I frankly don't ascribe to Gloom and Doom and the Fear.
In the long term this Country has made great progress and so has our Democracy.  Rather than read some kind of pop-culture book that isn't based in fact...Study Civics and Political Science and discover the power in the 'Two Parties'...not the philosophy.  How the Parties, at the local level start their quest to have in office candidates who do follow their philosophy.  The City Council Level.  Then how the State party works then the National Party works.  Check out the power of the DNC and the RNC.   You don't even know how this works..do you?
IT IS ABOUT THE VOTE!  If you think the country is in decline.  Did you vote?  Don't like the way Washington is heading or our Country is heading....Did you Vote?  All these people in office making decisions for you and the rest of the country....Who did you vote for?  Why do you think the power of the DNC and the RNC comes from getting out the vote and registering voters?  Complain all you want but Democracy is participatory.  
Look at the progress our Democracy has made since the 'Grapes of Wrath' migrations during the 30's.  Social Security benefits, etc.  Don't think things are going well in America?   Do something about it.  I grew up under Eisenhower.  Then came Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and the rest.  Presidents assassinated and people running for office shot at.. Riots at the political conventions..Riots in the streets.I have lived through absolute Chaos here in America..Political icons like Malcolm X..Huey Newton..Che Guevara.Angela Davis...Anti-War demonstrations..this liberation army or that Liberation Army, etc.  All Democracies change and evolve.  This is what our Democracy is doing.  I guarantee the process is healthy and working just fine.   Who said Democracy and the United states is in decline, not me.  The life of my Father was better then the life of his Father who came here fleeing Communism and religious persecution.   My life is better than my Fathers and my Sons life will be better than mine.  Don't ascribe the the Gloom and Doom and the Fear.

What I see is the average workers wages have been going down and prices up , IMO  its a rigged system and your vote doesn't count ,  the only time your vote counts is when you vote with your money .
So for the majority of people in the United States I would say it has declined , as for the Power structure of the United States I don't know but I would guess that its much more richer and powerful .
The new generation of people were I work make about 35% less then I do and we have a Union that voted that in. Hence : Our vote didn't count and it doesn't count when you vote your desired Politician in , your politican is just a puppet controlled by some super rich powerful organisation.

 

[Gunny]

The very fact that we can have this discussion without fear of reprisal (within Bob's limits) is itself a sign this country is better than most. 

I and probably many others have been in countries that limit free speech, access to the internet, anything derogatory about a leader or dictator or any form of dissension. 

The USA is going thru a bit of an upheaval about people's rights, the militarization of our Police, and many things that are splashed all over Yahoo or any news outlet. What is fed to us is the worst news possible, it is what sells or attracts attention. 

I believe many of us have lost our vision. We adore the Kardashians but pay no attention to the 17 year girl who patented a new cancer procedure. Misplaced values maybe?

I see many things I would like to change if I were King but I am not so I do what i can, I vote, I keep up with which congressman is screwing me the worst and try to elect someone more in line with my values.

I won't comment further, but I do hope the naysayers will look around and see what opportunities you have to actually change things.

 

[Sameer]

What I see is the average workers wages have been going down and prices up , IMO  its a rigged system and your vote doesn't count ,  the only time your vote counts is when you vote with your money .
So for the majority of people in the United States I would say it has declined , as for the Power structure of the United States I don't know but I would guess that its much more richer and powerful .
The new generation of people were I work make about 35% less then I do and we have a Union that voted that in. Hence : Our vote didn't count and it doesn't count when you vote your desired Politician in , your politician is just a puppet controlled by some super rich powerful organization.

Your vote counts...it is how our politicians get into and out of office. May be if you elected Pro-Labor candidates wages would not be an issue. If you elected fiscally responsible candidates prices would not be an issue. I say May be.... The people have the power but have been convinced not to use it. How many times have you re-elected the Senator from your state and he has done nothing for 'you', the people. If you elect 'your politician' as you say, who is a puppet...vote him out. You elect your Union leaders just like I did for over 20 years...vote them out and vote in those who will negotiate better wages. Don't give up or fall for myths or conspiracy theories sold by authors just trying to make a buck. Don't be swayed by the arrogant intellectuals who will try to convince you that you don't matter. You are a worker in charge of the means of production and have power. I respect how you feel.....Take your power back with the ballot box.

 

[GotSmart]

Ever watch those "man on the street" interviews where people are asked their opinion about something the average 6th grade civics class student SHOULD know?  Scary.

Those interviews are chosen from the dozens that are conducted.  If the interviewer is looking to make a point that people are stupid, they will search until they find the dumbest person willing to go on camera.  

While working on a communications degree, I spent many hours judging high school and college debates.  There are a lot of great minds out there.  There was not one single reporter at any of these events.  They are not as exciting as football or fights on campus.  

Several months ago there was a couple incidents at The University of Missouri.   Some sick person drew a swastika on a bathroom wall in poop, and another moron yelled at a black student from a ford truck with a rebel flag on it.  This lead to some whining, boycotts, and a loss of 1,500 students who were scared of some noise.  The university is losing about $50,000,000. in donations and fees. 

I drive past MU 4 times a day.  I go to the hospital there on campus.  am I scared?  Hell no! The whole thing was blown out of proportion by the media.  

I have been seeing stories of doom cryers all throughout history.  If it happens~~~ oh well.  Nothing I can do.  Do I believe it will happen to us?  No, too many people are invested in things running.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

it is easy to talk and no one will stop you from doing that, apparent free speech, try taking away power, threatening someone's livelihood or talking about someone in particular and it will be another story. You are very lucky Sameer to have a nice pension not everybody can be a teamster nor does everybody want to be... If America is doing so well why does it consume more antidepressants then the rest of the world combined.

 

[Dust-In-the-Wind]

Those interviews are chosen from the dozens that are conducted.  If the interviewer is looking to make a point that people are stupid, they will search until they find the dumbest person willing to go on camera.  

I get that.  But, I'm also factoring in my personal experience, in discussions I've had with co-workers and others over many years.  It's also why my 6 grandchildren were all home-schooled.  But that's another subject.

 

[mockturtle]

and a world war was right around the corner - unknown to all but the people planning it, which conspirators included FDR and Winston Churchill.

So you're saying Hitler had nothing to do with it? :-/

 

[GotSmart]

I get that.  But, I'm also factoring in my personal experience, in discussions I've had with co-workers and others over many years.  It's also why my 6 grandchildren were all home-schooled.  But that's another subject.

Insulating people and only allowing them to see one side IS the problem.

 

[Sameer]

You have all the clues you need to figure this out - if you want to. The information will mean much more to you if you discover it for yourself. From your responses thus far, you seem like a person who loves his country and just doesn't want to believe that things could go awry here.  That is your right.

In the hopes of straying back toward the topic, I will close by observing that the widespread ignorance of what our government is supposed to be is another indicator of our decline. After all, if you don't even know what you're supposed to have, it can easily be taken from you without you even knowing it's gone.

I can only go by personal experience. I suspect your statement to be a smoke screen. If I chose to label the political process by the word 'Democracy'...so be it. A statement by Confucius does not legitimize the argument. With respect to you.. I have to say...You cannot change my experiences or the perception that I have of this country by saying...I lack some kind of information. I do understand what you are saying, but disagree. I am not saying things are not awry. I am saying the tools are in place...if you want to make changes..use the tools. I also am saying that this is the system that we have and it works. The process works just fine. I say that because that is my experience. My party doesn't win all the time and the other side doesn't either. I will say because I have been involved in the process that it works. Lets talk about the worker/common man and not semantics. What are his choices to exert power in our system. It is simply take action...do something...participate! I am not trying to figure this out. I have a 'party' view of what I think the government is supposed to be for it's people. It is like I have said before (I have become a broken record so this is almost the end of this discussion for me) The People have the Power with the ballot box. I have seen the results both locally and on the National level.
In a final Note:
Two initiatives on the November Ballot in our great State...Arizona!
Funding Education....
Prop 123 would have the State sell off the 70 billion dollars of State Trust Land and put the money towards education. If you have ever lived on the Arizona State Trust land you know how wonderful it is to camp for a month in the wonderful beauty of a Southwest landscape.
Recreational Cannabis initiative would legalize the sale of Cannabis and the taxes...millions of dollars of tax dollars going for education.
This will decided by the voters at the ballot box....that is how important it is to get involved. Someone will decide this by their vote! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
All in all a wonderful discussion...I am so interested in the ideas that others have on this subject...May be sometime we will have a Political Roundtable...in the forest here in Flag...with coffee and party favors...just for fun...restoring the gel coat on my hightop van is calling me...hopefully I can resist this tread and get some work done....This is a discussion that is hard to resist.

 

[Mobilesport]

Sameer wrote
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] I am saying the tools are in place...if you want to make changes..use the tools. I also am saying that this is the system that we have and it works. The process works just fine. I say that because that is my experience. My party doesn't win all the time and the other side doesn't either. I will say because I have been involved in the process that it works[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The best anlogy I can think of is the casino , you walk in and they let you win sometimes to gain your confidence and sure you'll walk out with some money sometimes But in the end they will always come out on top especially on the things that they want to further there agenda.. Because its a rigged game .[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Here's another example , Hannity and colmes ( Republican vs Democrat) arguing over different issues on national tv , watch what they say very closely and you'll notice they disagree and disagree and people watching are taking sides ( Democrat vs Republican)[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif],,, all of the sudden one of them will say oh wow , now i agree with you on that particular issue ,  and the person who just sayed that just swayed most of those peoples opinion because there following there leader .[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The people that manage the world are very smart [/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Politicians are very smart , [/font]

 

[GotSmart]

Sameer wrote
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] I am saying the tools are in place...if you want to make changes..use the tools. I also am saying that this is the system that we have and it works. The process works just fine. I say that because that is my experience. My party doesn't win all the time and the other side doesn't either. I will say because I have been involved in the process that it works[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The best anlogy I can think of is the casino , you walk in and they let you win sometimes to gain your confidence and sure you'll walk out with some money sometimes But in the end they will always come out on top especially on the things that they want to further there agenda.. Because its a rigged game .[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Here's another example , Hannity and colmes ( Republican vs Democrat) arguing over different issues on national tv , watch what they say very closely and you'll notice they disagree and disagree and people watching are taking sides ( Democrat vs Republican)[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif],,, all of the sudden one of them will say oh wow , now i agree with you on that particular issue ,  and the person who just sayed that just swayed most of those peoples opinion because there following there leader .[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The people that manage the world are very smart [/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Politicians are very smart , [/font]

I do not see things in that way. 

Meet the new boss

Same as the old boss

https://www.bing.com/search?q=song ...=-1&sk=&cvid=A3DAF35D303B4626AD416B2AB30BC62E

 

[gcal]

Democracy !!! if voting made a difference, do you think they would let us do it?

No clue. 2/3's of voters stayed home in 2014, but they sure do want to complaint about things.

 

[IanC]

The way I see it, the reason for the decline of the western world is over reliance on the stock market as a savings account. Almost everyone is dependent on wall street in some way by way of their 401Ks , pensions ,jobs. There was a time when companies held a reserve to see them through slow times, without cutting their workforce (i.e. men and women with families, mortgages). There was a time when people worked at one company for life, and you can't tell me that those companies never experienced hard times. I worked as a personal assistant to a family that owned an international tool company. They were proud that they had never had a layoff in the history of the company - perhaps a temporary reduction in hours during downturns. It was a privately held company until it was sold to Rubbermaid. The instant it became public the layoffs began. In order to keep their share prices high, the second there is a downturn, drastic measures must be taken and it is a fact that the best way to increase stock prices is to announce a layoff or more operations overseas. Eliminating factory floor workers eliminates supervisors, managers, payroll people, human resources and up the chain. Only the very top of the pyramid remains unaffected.

To put it harshly, we have made too many people's financial security dependent on someone else's misery. All those glittering cities in China (and the growing stock portfolios of Americans ) came courtesy of many men who are being forced to take low wage jobs to survive. There are fewer and fewer places to work anymore. I don't even believe a full return of manufacturing is possible. The people who had the lifetime of experience to operate 5,000 worker plants have retired and no more are being brought up through the ranks.

There is absolutely no way it is sustainable. There is chatter all over about the inevitability of revolution, but apart from venting anger, revolution accomplishes nothing other than ushering in repressive governments. Every civilization in history has eventually collapsed and I don't believe ours will be the blessed exception.

 

[Mobilesport]

@ IanC 
You said
"The way I see it, the reason for the decline of the western world is over reliance on the stock market as a savings account"

So you think that the western world is in decline ? 
I myself don't know if it is in decline or not , as I stated before I think its in decline for most of the people as wages fall and prices go up and overpopulation but I don't know if the actual power structure is in decline or not because it may very well be getting stronger from exploiting the people .
My question to you is what makes you think the western world is in decline?  What did you use to guage it?

 

[TMG51]

I've pretty much stayed out of this thread so far because I don't like to get bogged down in some of this stuff, buuut if you identify with the subject matter of this thread, you should watch the following clip (opening segment from pilot episode of a TV show, The Newsroom). It may be the most poignant 8 minutes of video you've ever seen on YouTube. Note that there is some strong language.