"Hybrid" used vehicle warning BEWARE, FOLKS!!!

[JD GUMBEE]

I was sent an email and asked to make a post here.
Okay, you got it.

There apparently are people too scared to post on the forums here because of the "rudies" who frequently make nasty comments.
(To these people I say, let the "snowflake" part of you melt away. Grow a pair. "Sticks and stones" people. Get some clarity about text on a computer screen. No one is hurling rocks at you. This is not reality. The guy or gal you can touch...now that is reality. Worry about them, not idiots on the Internet.)

HYBRID WARNING

In all of the fleet purchases and studies done for the major fleet purchases, we found the hybrid vehicles NOT to be worthwhile.
There are some cases where they work very well. Outfits that do a lot of city driving and run 100,000 miles up on a car in two years...wearing the thing out in three, the Prius proved to be worthy. Some of the larger GM hybrids showed the same promise.
Keep in mind, this info is 3-5 years old and the study did not have me as the quarterback.

Make certain, before you bid or buy a hybrid...that you understand what it costs to replace the battery package for that vehicle.
The small amount you save on fuel is rarely (VERY RARELY) worth the added complexity, repair costs, weight of the hybrid systems.
This becomes nearly a 100% certainty when you have a hybrid that is 5 years old, with low mileage.

You can take most 20 year old regular vehicles with 6,000 original miles on them and with very few tweaks, restore the stuff that went bad from sitting and keep on driving.
This can represent the best deal going for pure cost-per-mile, bang-for-your-buck, drive-it-till-it-dies vehicle.

A 5 year old hybrid, in need of a battery can turn this equation on its head. Add a $3500 battery and relay assembly to pretty much any car repair and you have a loser.
Do not listen to some guy who tells you he "had a neighbor who had a room mate who had a girlfriends uncle that..." horsepoo. Check yourself on the price for the battery.
Make certain you do the math.
If you check on the auction prices for the hybrid vehicles, you will see the models that are four and five years old selling for very low prices.
There is good reason for this.

If your driving is mainly 50MPH and over, hybrid vehicles will show very little, if any, increase in MPG.

Make sure you know those replacement costs on the battery and controls/relay systems.
From the throttle position sensor to the fuses, the co$t$ of parts are often way out of step with normal cars.
Be sure before you roll the dice.

 

[John61CT]

On the other hand, if what you want is the aircon, powerplant & battery pack,

assuming buying new or good used

a Toyota hybrid can be pretty cheap compared to putting those systems together yourself,

and you get a vehicle for commuter/errands transportation thrown in free as a bonus!

 

[Rabbit]

Make sure you know those replacement costs on the battery and controls/relay systems.
From the throttle position sensor to the fuses, the co$t$ of parts are often way out of step with normal cars.
Be sure before you roll the dice.

The last I heard GM has still not sold a single Chevy Volt replacement battery, though some cars already have several hundred thousand miles on them. That was in an article I read about a year ago, on the subject of lithium-ion battery life in general. And, I keep hearing Priuses described as among the most reliable and longest-lasting vehicles ever built, though I've never seen any actual data cited. I've never cared enough to properly research the matter, neither owning nor being in the market for a hybrid. Nor do I care enough to do said research work now. But I'm sure the Truth Is Out There, and if I _were_ in the market I'd surely seek it out. Certainly I'd never blindly accept either my unbacked word on the matter or anyone else's. The internet is full of both true and untrue "facts"; you have to double-check everything. Finding actual numbers and credible-sounding sources for said numbers is a good way to begin separating the wheat from the chaff. Even better, find _more_ numbers and see if they agree.

In other words... Caveat Emptor.

 

[TMG51]

Yep. If you want an economical vehicle, get an old diesel hatchback. Few people who buy into the green image seem to realize that a great portion of the emissions a car is responsible for come from its manufacture. If your goal is cost effectiveness, an older used vehicle will always be cheaper. If your goal is environmental responsibility, again, using what already exists is more responsible. And you might say, hey, but, buy buying hybrid vehicles, they will become the next generation of older used vehicles! Well, they probably won't. Because you can buy a running used car for what it costs to replace the battery bank in one of these hybrids. The technology makes the vehicle disposable.

As far as I can see, there are only three reasons to buy a hybrid.

1. You want the overnight air functions etc they offer.
2. You do mostly city driving so the economy benefit is there, and you're the type to buy a new vehicle every 5 or so years anyway, and you don't care that you're not actually being environmentally friendly.
3. To contrive inflated sense of self-worth based on the image and poorly informed public opinion.

The last I heard GM has still not sold a single Chevy Volt replacement battery, though some cars already have several hundred thousand miles on them. That was in an article I read about a year ago, on the subject of lithium-ion battery life in general. And, I keep hearing Priuses described as among the most reliable and longest-lasting vehicles ever built, though I've never seen any actual data cited. I've never cared enough to properly research the matter, neither owning nor being in the market for a hybrid. Nor do I care enough to do said research work now. But I'm sure the Truth Is Out There, and if I _were_ in the market I'd surely seek it out. Certainly I'd never blindly accept either my unbacked word on the matter or anyone else's. The internet is full of both true and untrue "facts"; you have to double-check everything. Finding actual numbers and credible-sounding sources for said numbers is a good way to begin separating the wheat from the chaff. Even better, find _more_ numbers and see if they agree.

In other words... Caveat Emptor.

Batteries have a finite life span. Batteries are expensive. Both of those statements are facts not subject to interpretation.

Batteries may continue to get cheaper, and their life spans will probably be improved as well, but ultimately they're still items to one day be replaced. I think vehicle manufacturers know this, and that's why they push the eco-conscious image.

We should be pushing hydrogen vehicles and infrastructure to replace gas pumps with hydrogen pumps. But, that's neither in the interest of vehicle manufacturers or the oil industry.

 

[tx2sturgis]

There are some exceptions to the rule, as there always are.

I have a friend, now a retired Colonel in the US Army, who has been driving a Red Honda Insight (first gen) since...well since they came out. Whenever that was...18 years ago maybe?

I think he is right at 275,000 miles on the thing, and has recently had to replace the battery, I think that was right around 3 grand. I don't know how many tires, oil changes, or other maintenance items he has had to replace...whether it's been reliable otherwise, that also, I don't know. 

I'm guessing that since he spent the money on the new battery, he is still happy with it. 

But he gets about 70 miles per gallon on the highway, where he does the vast majority of his driving.

Pretty neat little car...but yeah, not big enough for me to 'live' in...

 

[akrvbob]

I can only speak about the Toyota Prius, and even then I’ve never owned one, just known many people who do.

I totally disagree with this premise.

I’ve never known anyone who actually owned one who didn’t rant and rave about how great it was. They may very well be the very best vehicle ever made. Do a google search of top 10 most reliable vehicles, more often than not, the Prius will be there.

I know someone who took a 6000 mile, 6 month trip across the country and Canada, they kept meticulous records and AVERAGED 45 mpg.

Over 200,000 miles (and very often much more) on the first battery pack is routine and now there are clones and rebuilders who sell them for much less.

Again, I’ve never owned one but everyone I know who has and everything I’ve ever heard tells me they are a spectacularly good car. No, I couldn’t live in one, but I couldn’t live in any car. If I could, it would be my choice.

 

[tripper]

I have a red 2000 Honda Insight Hybrid, the ones that get 70 mpg.  I did recently replace the battery pack, it cost $2500, it is a higher capacity pack than the original factory pack.  I did not have to replace it, but I wanted the extra power.  The 1st generation Honda Hybrids can run without the battery pack, I ran mine several years without the hybrid battery, the mileage was actually slightly better, just the car was much slower taking off, but just fine at highway speeds. I have owned mine for 8 years, it has been very reliable. I put about 1500 miles a month on it.

The best mileage I have gotten with it is 109 mpg if I drive very conservatively. The car gets about 45 mpg @ 90 mph. I am very happy with my hybrid.  BTW Prius' s will not run without their battery, but their batteries last a long time. I am sold on hybrids.

Yes this 1st gen Honda Insights are much too small to sleep in, I have tried, it is impossible. But they sure do look cool! Here is mine!

 

[highdesertranger]

to me longevity for a vehicle means at 40 years old it's still a useable vehicle. come back when these are 40 years old and see how many are still on the road. any vehicle should make 20 years old, though many don't. hell even Yugo's made 10 years some even 15. highdesertranger

 

[johnny b]

Wow! $2500 for an upgraded pack for an old Honda, yet 2 Battleborn 100ah LiFePo set ya back $2000...go figure!

Edit....never mind.

Just googled and found that the Honda replacement pack is 8 ah of NiMH. Not Lithium.

More research needed.

 

[John61CT]

Yes these various EV / hybrids are actually very different designs, can't really be lumped together.

Toyota's patents alone make theirs unique, and I've always respected their (and Honda's) quality control, overall very low cost of ownership per mile for those who keep them a long time well maintained.

I hear people talk about 'murican diesels or even gasoline vehicles requiring major work costing $2-3K, and often they'll bite the bullet.

To me if you know it's coming and plan for it, better than something that happens out in the middle of nowhere.

There is, and will be more of, a glut of these in great shape but battery replacement time coming off leases. The fact they go so cheap sounds like a great opportunity to me.

Big thirsty rig for towing huge loads, little runabout tagging along keep the big one's miles down, easy power generation and aircon as well.

 

[TMG51]

I can only speak about the Toyota Prius, and even then I’ve never owned one, just known many people who do.

I totally disagree with this premise.

I’ve never known anyone who actually owned one who didn’t rant and rave about how great it was. They may very well be the very best vehicle ever made. Do a google search of top 10 most reliable vehicles, more often than not, the Prius will be there.

I know someone who took a 6000 mile, 6 month trip across the country and Canada, they kept meticulous records and AVERAGED 45 mpg.

Over 200,000 miles (and very often much more) on the first battery pack is routine and now there are clones and rebuilders who sell them for much less.

Again, I’ve never owned one but everyone I know who has and everything I’ve ever heard tells me they are a spectacularly good car. No, I couldn’t live in one, but I couldn’t live in any car. If I could, it would be my choice.

I believe every word of what you've said here. Especially the part about Prius owners raving about how great they are. However I also don't believe any of that is in contradiction to what I said in my post above.

 

[John61CT]

Implication being, only irrational people buy them in the first place?

 

[sushidog]

BTW, all hybrid batteries so far are NiMh, not lithium. They are not as good as lithiums (nor as expensive.)

Chip

 

[John61CT]

False.

Different makes, different batts.

Some use NMC, some LiPo. Both those are "lithium" neither are LFP.

Tesla' changed going to the S.

 

[sushidog]

Which hybrid uses a lipo battery?

http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-car-battery/

Never mind, I see some of the new ones use them. When I was shopping a few years ago none had them.

My bad. I guess every few years, things change.

Chip

 

[JD GUMBEE]

Bob, You are allowed your opinion like anyone else, but it comes second hand from maybe ten people and Internet hash which largely follows the new car market. Very different from a 10-15 year old car sold used. When you can see a few thousand vehicles with good data and measure out the results, it is hard to argue with the numbers. The Prius is just one of the hybrid vehicles out there. The Prius also has well documented rear brake issues and a few other problems that make them not as attractive as a basic Corolla or Civic in the cheaper used market. They
They are not even close to the Corolla or older 4 cylinder Camrys when it comes to pure reliability, ease and low cost of parts/repair...or availability for reasonable money. Their popularity has priced them right out of the running. Like a Harley Davidson versus the average metric cruiser, a used Prius can rarely compete in the used market when considering value for money.
The TDI VW's get great MPG, but when you (at least before the emissions debacle) looked at the premium price they brought and the higher cost on frequent repairs (like a 180 dollar O2 sensor often, every 30,000 miles) (600 dollar dealer-only timing belts) they were not worth the money when side by side with a Camry/Accord/Civic/Corolla.
My post, if it is read, warns buyers to be extra cautious when buying an older low mile hybrid.
(It is not only Honda and Toyota who made Hybrids.)
Also, check the MPG figures.
What do you think a Civic gets on the highway without the Hybrid option?
You think 45 is worth how much more money than the Civic?

Not really sure what you disagreed with.
I warned people to beware before they made a purchase.
Go check the pricing on a new Prius compared to a new Civic.
Then do the MPG math. Even if you do not allow for extra $$$$ because of the hybrid extras the Civic does not have to worry about, you will quickly see my point.
The fleets spend millions of dollars each year on vehicles.
It is in their interest to make the right decisions.
As of 36 months ago, when the numbers were last run, overall, hybrids are not worth the hassle.
No one need agree...or listen to the free info I passed on. It does not make it untrue, however.

 

[John61CT]

Few people are actually rational economic actors, especially in choosing their private vehicles.

I agree the mpg math doesn't in itself justify the premium.

I would only consider Toyota, because reliability and my use case is the powerplant and aircon, transportation is secondary.

If for transportation Honda's the only other one, for me personally.

Some people want to buy only American brands, again, nothing to do with mathematical calculations.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . . And, I keep hearing Priuses described as among the most reliable and longest-lasting vehicles ever built . . .

That's funny.  I have friends that are driving '30's, '40's & '50 vehicles, some of them daily drivers.  I agree with HDR: come back in 40 years, then we can discuss.

 

[Headache]

I see a lot of opinion but no real data. JD you recently disagreed with me about an engine even though I was correct. You stated something about not having thought outside of fleets in coming up with your opinion.

I have quite a few years with fleets myself. It can be a very narrow focus and right now there hasn't been enough time passed to make longevity relevant for some of the models discussed.

This is where the disagreement is; not that you are right or wrong but that you are promoting opinion as data proven fact without sharing the data. You accused Bob of believing "internet hash" but didn't provide anything better.

Where is this data and numbers you keep bringing up? You are right that is hard to argue the numbers... but when you don't actually provide them you open yourself wide open for exactly that.

 

[JD GUMBEE]

I made a general statement about hybrid vehicles not being worth the money.
I suggested that people make certain they knew the prices for the batteries and controllers before the made the deal...especially in the used market.
I elaborated about how doing the math for ones self, comparing a similar sized vehicles price with that of the hybrid and doing the life-cycle MPG math.
No one needs a copy of the study to do this.
It comes out pretty clear.

Nearly all of the "google 10 most reliable" vehicles out there comes from the first 36 months of ownership.
I am pretty sure I talked about older vehicles with low mileage too. Battery replacement. Pricey. Watch out.
Of course, the fleet buyers getting a mandate, "NO MORE HYBRIDS" may count for something.
(Did I also not say that some customers, who put on a ton of miles in a few years found the hybrid situation to be worthwhile??)

I want to thank you for one thing in particular here.
Making me realize that being "wide open" is not remotely worth the hassle.