How much batteries do I need?

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VanKitten

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I am trying to understand this from the opposite end of the problem.

I have 690w on the roof.    My power consumption will be a bit more than usual...microwave, 600w cook top, printer and PC an hour a day......

The question is.  I want to know for sure that I can fully charge the batteries within a 8 hour window.   So..if I have LOTS of battery capacity, doesn't that mean I have less chance of charging all of it fully?    Ruining the batteries oover time because I don't get them charged back up fully.

If all power is off.  Can 690w fully charge 260ah batteries in full sunshine in 8 hours?
What about 400ah?   Where is the balance?
 
No. Batteries will be "ruined" (shorter life) if you often go below 50% SoC, so you need to use that to get your MINIMUM size.

If you are only pulling them down 20% average each day, they will last MUCH longer.

You only need to replace each day what you took out since the previous charge to full.

With that much solar (good move!) you could likely recharge a 1000AH bank most days if you're in sunny areas.

The limitations are cost, weight and lost space.

Not a good idea to add cells incrementally to the bank, sell the old batteries and buy what you need matching **everything**, ideally factory date / batch and shelf voltage.

Get a good SoC meter like Balmar SmartGauge, and/or a coulomb counting battery monitor like Trimetric or Victron BMV-702.

Or with Flooded you could use a hydrometer to check your SG, make sure you are getting to that Full 100% as often as possible.
 
Oh...I read that if you consistently fail to charge them fully back up...the life span is much much shorter (what I call runining). Since the last little bit of charging isn't taking full capacity of what the panels deliver....there is some way to figure what it takes to get o full capacity again?

I have not purchased the batteries yet. I want to size them so that they will not be so large that I cannot reasonably be able to charge them back to full in a day or so. But, large enough to handle the demand for a night. The demand side was easy enough to calculate. It is getting the batteries back to full charge that I need to understand

Obviously, if the glass is small..filling it will be a lot faster than if it is a giant size tumbler.
 
RoamingKat said:
I have not purchased the batteries yet. I want to size them so that they will not be so large that I cannot reasonably be able to charge them back to full in a day or so.
Wrong again, how long it takes depends on - and ONLY on - SoC, how many AH you took out.

The long tail low current stage will take about the same time.


RoamingKat said:
Obviously, if the glass is small..filling it will be a lot faster than if it is a giant size tumbler.
No, if you are replenishing 2 oz from a tiny tube, that will take X hours whether it's going into a teacup or a big drum.

Having a big drum, so your depth of discharge averages a much smaller % of the whole will make the bank last much longer.

If you have an extremely "too large" bank, you will be able to park in the shade more sometimes.
 
"If all power is off. Can 690w fully charge 260ah batteries in full sunshine in 8 hours?" yes, with the key words "all power off" and "full sunshine"
"What about 400ah?" yes same as above.
"Where is the balance?" hard to say, lots of variables. 1st one is make sure you are not going below 50%, 70 or 80 is much better.
the thing is a micro is usually run for a minute or two but a huge draw you need lots of battery. the electric cook top runs for a longer time and is also a huge draw, very inefficient. those 2 things are driving you to a larger battery bank and more solar. what if you run into cloudy weather for a week? highdesertranger
 
Kat

When I describe solar it is part of a balanced system of knowing your needs, conserving without sacrifice, enough battery to hold you for a extra day or two in bad weather, enough solar to bring those batteries up relatively quickly once the weather clears and a alternate source of charging in case the weather doesn't clear or your system goes down.

So what you need to look at is how much is the heaviest usage you will use and prepare for that. The cooktop I use takes 470w but that tells me nothing unless I know how long and how often it will be heating. In other words it uses a lot more power on high boiling water where the element rarely turns off vs on medium where the element comes on and off. Do you cook the same thing for the same amount of time everyday? If so it is easy to calculate.

The computer for one hour is a easy one. Somewhere on it there is a tag that tells you how many amps it pulls. If it says 3a at 120v, times that by 10 and add a few amps for the inverter too.

Microwaves are a heavy draw item but usually for a shorter time period. The longest I have used my 900w microwave that pulls 1375w was 18 minutes doing multiple baked potatoes but usually it's more in the range of three minutes at a time. So how big of a microwave are you talking and how long will you be using it?

A printer is about the same unless you are printing a book or leaflets to pass out. Turn it on, print, turn it off.

There are little things to consider like lights, fans, etc.

So you could tally every load by draw times time and know how much you will use OR plug it all into a power strip, plug the strip into a killawatt and let it record your usage everyday. Just remember to add some for the inverter.

Another way of looking at it is the balance between bank and solar. I don't agree with the 1-1 concept because if you were ever to get a 690 Ah bank down to 50% it would be painfully slow watching your system charge it back up again and that's if you were not using any more while it charged. Add in low sun on shorter winter days and you would be looking at possibly three days, more if you are still using power.

Twice as many watts to Ah has the ability to push the bank around but it cuts your usable amp hours down to around 150 Ah's a day. This is where knowing your needs comes in, is that enough to cover you for a day or two?

John is right that a bank that is cycled lightly will last much longer than a bank that is taken down to 50% daily. You can see this on the manufactures site when they tell you how many cycles the batteries are good for at 50% discharge or 20%. Type of battery is part of this as a golf cart battery will give you more 50% cycles than a marine battery but lightly discharged a marine battery can last many years.

Another thing is with that many watts your system will act like a solar generator during peak times of the day. It won't cover the total draw of the hotplate and microwave but it will offset the draw on the bank so you will be pulling much less out of the batteries. That's why so many of the things I use pull around 450w because I know my system can run them during the peak while still sending power to the bank, not draining it.

Last but not least is how much budget and room do you have for the type of batteries you want. The battery box for my 675 Ah bank of three Lifeline 8-D's takes up a space of 2 foot by 3 foot. They weigh 470 pounds and would cost 2 grand to buy new. Golf cart batteries would cost less for the same Ah, take up a similar amount of space and weight.

I know none of this gives you a hard number but rather different ways to look at making the decision. Personally I like 2-1 as long as it isn't ravishing your bank daily. Just remember to set up the alternate means of charging just in case.
 
2 L16 LiPo...cause why not with 690w

I use the same appliances as everyone else, sans a fancy fridge, and get by with my $350 system and a $150 generator. If im using the microwave its a good time to fire up the genny and get an exrta 20-30A of charge while Im at it. That runs my computer and TV for a good 8hrs alone.
 
BTW, it is entirely possible that your inverter manufacturer will have a suggestion for the minimum size of your battery bank to run their inverter properly.  If the owner's manual for the inverter doesn't discuss it, you might want to call their tech support number and ask them for a recomendation.
 
Short answer:  if you are using less than 290AH/day, a sunny day will get your batteries back to 100% by sundown.  Less than full sun will depend on how much less than 290AH you use; the balance is you have to put back what you take out (plus a little for losses).

Start by adding up how much power you use in a day.  If you are still on shore power get a Kill-A-Watt meter and start measuring.  Or estimate by multiplying the watts used by each appliance by how long you use it.  This will give you how many watt-hours you use in a day (to get amp-hours divide watt-hours by 12).  The best your 690W of panels will do is about 3500WH (690W X 5 hours of good sun = 3500WH÷12V = 290AH) per day.  If you use more than 3500WH/day you either have to cut down on power use, add panels, or add another source of charging (generator, alternator, shore power).

For 3500WH of use per day you should have more than 600AH of lead-acid batteries (less if you use mostly solar panel output, more for cloudy days).  How far you draw down your batteries depends largely on when you use the power: during the day your batteries will supplement the solar harvest, at night you are drawing only from the battery.  One should always shoot for full batteries by sundown (earlier is better).

 -- Spiff
 
For analogy purposes, think of your house battery as a gas tank.  If you take 10 gallons of gas out of your tank every day, you need to put 10 gallons back in to bring it back up to full.

That's true whether you have a 20 gallon tank or a 50 gallon tank.  Take 10 gallons out, put 10 gallons back in. 

If you take 10 gallons out every day and only put 8 gallons back in, eventually you are going to run the tank dry, whether it's a 20 gallon tank or a 50 gallon tank.
 
I'll add another thing here. Two golf cart batteries will not run a microwave.
 
If 690 watts is to be the only charging source, and no more can be fit, I would suggest 4 gc-2 batteries for 440 to 464Ah total capacity.


If one is also going to have the ability to plug in or fire up a generator in the morning and recharge with a 60+ amp charger then I would consider 6.

How long it takes for amps to taper until the level they can be considered fully charged will always be changing.

The variables as to how much it changes, are:
1 depth of discharge
2 how many cycles have accumulated since last true full recharge, and or Equalization charge
3. the amperage rate at which the batteries achieved absorption voltage
4. battery temperature
5. battery overall health
6. initial battery quality
.

How much electricity you use in the morning into early afternoon will play a big part in how soon your batteries get to absorption voltage. I generally try and avoid using power in the morning when I know there might not be enough time in the day to hold ABSV as long as required.

it is best to get to absV as early as possible so the solar can then hold Absv for as long as required.  Once ABSV is achieved, then there will be more and more, as time goes on, excess electricity one can utilize to do other tasks.  a 600 watt cooktop used in the morning can extend the time it takes to reach absV by hours.

When the batteries are at their lowest first thing in the morning, they can also accept the highest amperage, most efficiently, with little juice lost to battery heating.

The full recharge each and every day is highly desirable, but not always likely to occur.  One can learn to tailor their usage by how much sunlight, or other charging sources are expected to be employed the next day.  When many days have accumulated only getting to 95% or less, then one should try and be frugal overnight and plan on getting to ABSV asap by whatever means available.  many days without a full recharge can significantly extend the time required in ABSv before amps taper to ~2% of battery capacity, or full  as determined by a hydrometer, not by the blinking light indicating float voltage on a solar charge controller.

A Vehicle driven early morning with a thick copper path to house batteries can accomplish a lot in the goal of achieving absorption voltage early.  Idling unmoving, just to recharge should be limited to 10 to 15 minutes as the alternator can overheat without underhood airflow.

So I say 4 or 6 gc-2 golf cart batteries with that much solar, and you will soon find out if you have enough solar, or need to implement other charging sources, or use less electricity.

The theoretical ideal of AH to solar wattage ratio is different for everybody's system and uses, and changes frequently.

I am of the opinion that many people go for too much battery capacity for the warm and fuzzies/ bragging rights.  Lesser depth of discharge does increase battery longevity, but going below 50% here or there is not a death sentence.  more important to recharge fully, and promptly, than worrying about occassionally slipping below 50%, especially with golf cart batteries.  Now if one were using 12v marine batteries or the less expensive AGM batteries, I say it is more important to not regularly discharge them to the 50% and below region.

The Solar alone approach will not work for everyone.  No way could I have 500 deep cycles on my current AGM and have it retain so much capacity at 3.5 years of age, if I could not blast it with high amperage from alternator or plug in charging souorce.  Even when my dedicated house battery was a quality group 31 marine battery, it responded favorably to high amperage early in the morning, and much less favorably to a low and slow ramp up to Noon's maximum solar amperage.  Even if there was enough daylight to achieve full by afternoon, the days where the battery was blasted with high amperage in the morning, had the battery holding higher voltages during than nights discharge.

I intentionally limited battery capacity in an attempt to charge the deeper dischartged battery at a higher rate, and did achieve a better $/cycle ratio.  I've gone from 345AH total capacity 10 years ago, to just 90AH now.

Also with the early morning high amperage blast, the time required to be held in absorption was less , and lesser absorption voltages could be used.

If no higher amp sources are employed, and 50% discharges are regular, then the solar wattage/battery capacity ratio should really be at the 2 to 1 or bigger.

But with a limited size solar array, and that as the only charging source, I would personally not get a huge battery bank just to limit the depth of discharge.  There is a balance and the correct balance cannot be determined until it is in actual use.  The GC-2 batteries are the best bang for the buck, so 4 or 6 is likely your decision.  4 now and 2 more later is only viable, if later is no more than a month or so, and I would not parallel the other 2 until performing an Equalization on the first 4.

Adding new to old batteries is far from ideal, for the batteries, but it is not an instant death sentence by any means.  IF you suspect 6 might be required, and want to start with 4 first, then make sure you have the room and funds to add 2 more within a month/30 cycles or so.

Each pair of GC-2s is 120 Lbs minimum.  Depending on the size of the rig and how it is driven, this weight can impact fuel economy, and what might be extended in battery longevity is lost in fuel to move the rig over the life of the batteries, saving no money, possibly. 

It is hard to not overthink it, but sometimes one just has to draw that line in the sand, and make it work.

Your questions are the right ones to be asking and show a lot as to your ability, So I would not really freak out or chastise yourself, you are doing well.

If the batteries capacity is proving to not be enough, then try and add more charging sources/use less electricity.  When they are too compromised that it impacts one's quality of life, then add more battery capacity when the batteries need replacement.

Usually people are 'just fine' for X amount of time, before they notice the batteries are not just enough.  When this is noticed the battery capacity is already compromised, and hail mary recharges in an attempt to regain lost capacity is too little to late, but the knowledge gained during the hail mary attempts add many more cycles to the next set of batteries.

Sometimes you just got to say, Well I'll just have to see how long these batteries will last as I will use them.

No matter what, they will not last forever, even if taken care of perfectly.  Often the efforts to maximize longevity costs more $$ and time than simply resigning oneself to  replacing them more often.

Basic Summation, achieve absorption voltage as early as possible every day.  Do this and the batteries lifespan should be acceptable to good, even if brought to below 50% occassionally.  Acheive and hold absorption voltage for long enough 3 days out of 7 will yield good to great cycle life, but those 3 days might require a lot more time than expected.

When the batteries are really down low, and have been low for many days on end, then efforts should be made to ensure they can achieve a true full recharge, and that will require using less electricity overnight, or a longer drive in the morning, or an AC grid powered infusion of higher amps.

Really hard working batteries can often require 12+ hours at ABSV before specific gravity gets back up into the green, so giving them a break by plugging in and letting a grid powered charging source give them a good long massage can usually reset them to an earlier younger age.  Hard worked batteries that do not get the 100% recharge are getting ready to jump off of a cliff, but they start running downhill before jumping.

A person who watched a voltmeter, hopefully with an Ammeter, and even better, with an Amp hour counter, will easily notice when the voltage the batteries maintain during discharge is not what it once was.  A quick drop off in overnight voltage is a sure sign the time is at hand to ensure a true full recharge, and possible employ an Equalization charge on them.

The EQ charge requires that one bring the batteries to as high as 16.2v, but only after the batteries have spent the required time in the mid to high 14v range.  16.2v is damaging to some electronics and it is best to disconnect loads from the batteries during an EQ charge.

EQ charging is its own subject/thread.  EQ charges are hard on a battery.  How often they are required is highjly variable and only able to be determined with a hydrometer, but one noticing poor overnight voltages can know the EQ charge requirement is approaching/here.  EQ charges are required more often the harder worked the batteries are.  They can restore lost capacity, but not always.

Ony EQ flooded batteries.  AGMS requiring a capacity restoration requires a different procedure and much more careful observation during the EQ.  All but one AGM manufacturer(Lifeline/Concorde) recommend against such procedures.
 
RoamingKat,

You've heard from 5 or 6 of the top/experienced/trusted posters when it comes to solar and batteries... so what do you want to do with those energy hogging appliances (microwave and cooktop), as that's what most of the fuss and expense is about.

One poster said that you cannot run a microwave on 2 golf-carts. 
Yes and no.  
I've read hundreds of electrical posts, and there's a few vandwellers that do run very low powered microwaves (600-700 watts) for just a minute or three successfully on two 6v golf-carts. 

What they don't tell you is how often their inverter shuts off due to low voltage (search for "voltage sag"), nor do they say how old their GC's are or if they start off 100% SOC daily.  Most do say they make sure to run their vehicle (having an alternator to solenoid to house battery connection) while they use the microwave. 

So it is possible, the question is, is it practical?

I've "agonized" (well, deliberated is a better word) over the "nicety" and convenience of a microwave to blissfully zap the cooled-down coffee or the soup or whatever while out camping... Just like at home... As many posters have pointed out, its a whole lot less expensive and efficient to just cook on your propane appliance.  

If you eliminate these two appliance needs/wants, you can really reduce the size of your solar, your (probably 1500 watt) inverter, your cabling thickness and your battery replacement time-frames.  Is the convenience of "zapping" some food/drink product really worth the $1,000 plus that you will likely spend on the system ?  

Only you know what you want and how deep your proverbial pockets are.  Last time I checked, it's still a free country and you can spend whatever you want to, it's just a big expense for not so much gain.

Whatever you do, especially if it involves the big draw appliances, cable and fuze appropriately.  Safety first!
 
Most people fail to take into account power management when they consider sizing their systems. So the question WHEN will you use the power is at least as important as HOW MUCH power will you use. In other words, if you only use the large power draws during the day, then your batteries are going to be just barely used at night by normal usage. They will be very nearly full when the sun rises.

At sunset my fridge is always at maximum cold, my laptop is already fully charged so I unplug it, and I've already zapped my meal. It's rare for my batteries to be below 12.5 at sunrise.

With your system the microwave is a non-issue. A 700-watt cook power microwave only draws 2 amps a minute, (120 amps an hour divided by 60 minutes). So if you use it for 10 minutes it only uses 20 amps.

But the cooktop is an issue. If it were me I'd have a propane stove and at the first hint of a problem with getting your batteries getting 100% charged, stop using it.

If you use any kind of wise power management, you will have all the power you could ever need and your batteries will live a long, happy, healthy life.

You've got this thing!!!
 

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