Help! Inverter research overload! LF or HF? 1k or 2kw? Charger bulit-in?

[road_ahead]

I'm looking to purchase our first inverter/converter for our van build.  Our initial HIGH power sources will be a 700 watt microwave (not bought yet, but I hear they pull 1,000 watts normally) and a Instant Pot Ultra (tested with Kill-A-Watt meter and it pulls 1,028-1,040 watts during pre-heat and cooking cycle).  I've read inverters are most efficient at full load, but it seems a 1,000w intervter will not be enough.  We definitely want to future-proof as much as possible and going with reliable name brands.  Another factor is going with a high frequency vs low frequency converter.  Space is limited and while the Magnum LF models are nice, they take up more space.   I'm leaning toward a 2,000w inverter and for the most part, like what I see with the new Xantrex Freedom X line http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/freedom-X.aspx

I know Xantrex track record doesn't match Magnum or Victron.   If our power needs are just above 1,000 watts...would a 2k version be 'wasteful' in the sense of parasitic draw and lower efficient conversion?  Having a unit with a built-in charger is also nice, but some have mentioned this as a con since if the unit goes bad in the future you have to replace both as with separate units you just replace one. 

I don't see us using a microwave much, maybe a quick reheat here and there.  And the instant pot  is only at 1kw for 3-15 minutes just to reach pressure cooking point.   House battery bank will initially be two 12 volts with 210Ah initially.  With option to add a third. 

Appreciate any recommendations, brands, or pointing to informative threads.

Models should come with 2 years or more warranty, budget under $1,000.

 

[BradKW]

I would suggest including Go Power! GP-SW1500-12 1500-Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter in your consideration. I went with the 3000 watt 24v model and have been nothing but pleased with it...sounds like the 1500 watt model might fit your needs well. Good inverters can easily exceed "max" and operate at "peak"...bad ones can't even reach rated max.

I didn't want to spend $2k+ for comparable Magnum and GoPower looked like a good fit, especially with a lot of negative stuff related to changes within Xantrex out there.

What finally made my decision was the level of customer support I kept witnessing in reviews and forums, to the point where they were replacing ebay purchases of "Trucker Edition" units that have the higher voltage cutout for OTR drivers. They replaced units they didn't even sell, just to clear up confusion. I believe they are at least assembled in the US, and my email questions post-purchase were answered immediately, thoroughly, and with an offer for further follow up.

 

[John61CT]

I say no Xantrex, yes Magnum or Victron or Outback but for that sort of money be sure you can upgrade within x days for free if you bought too small.

Microwave likely to need that 2000.

Or go cheap, even one per appliance, but be ready to replace within a year, at those prices can carry a spare.

Don't worry about the efficiency for short usage times, just make sure to turn it off when not in use.

Yes separate charger.

 

[road_ahead]

I would suggest including Go Power! GP-SW1500-12 1500-Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter
I didn't want to spend $2k+ for comparable Magnum and GoPower looked like a good fit, especially with a lot of negative stuff related to changes within Xantrex out there.

Thanks! I kind of forgot about GoPower. I'll add it to the list.

I say no Xantrex,
Yes separate charger.

I know Xantrex has had a bad rep of sorts. I was hoping they up'd their game like many manufacturers over time. Remember Hyundai in it's for 10 years?
John, I knew from reading your other posts here that you're an advocate for separate chargers with custom profiles... though I see those 'pro' chargers are in the $500 range.

Decisions, decisions. Let it be known I am of the 'Buy Once, Cry Once' mindset.

Are chargers with temperature sensors/compensation important for my type of set up. We're not full-time or hardly part-time rv living. For the next year we'll probably venture out once or twice a month for 2-3 days trips at most. Right now I'm pulling the battery after a road trip and charging indoors with an Odyssey OBC-20A. Eventually after we build out the van with hardwired outlets, etc. it'd be nice to just plug in to charge and run gear off mains.

 

[akrvbob]

I've been running my microwave off this Xantrex 2000 Prowatt inverter for about 5 years now and have nothing but great things to say for it. It's $415

http://amzn.to/2wopoYI

 

[highdesertranger]

I would think more in the lines of four 6 volts batteries. I think two 12v is not enough and you shouldn't add a third after the fact. batteries should be the same type, same chemistry and same AGE. highdesertranger

 

[John61CT]

Xantrex gear is fine, used to be better, but corporate CS attitude is truly woeful not getting better. The consumer-level units (under say $2-3K) are considered disposable, very hard for authorized centers to get service parts.

Skimping on inverters makes more sense than charging IMO.

If you want a good Combi unit look at Victron, but not cheap.

Good chargers only get that expensive at very high amps, sounds like you don't need that?

 

[road_ahead]

I've been running my microwave off this Xantrex 2000 Prowatt inverter for about 5 years now

Thanks for the personal experience with this model. I saw a Yt video where the guy bench tested it to deliver 1800 watts for a good amount of time. Added to the spreadsheet.

 

[road_ahead]

I would think more in the lines of four 6 volts batteries. I think two 12v is not enough and you shouldn't add a third after the fact. batteries should be the same type, same chemistry and same AGE. highdesertranger

I read the debate over 6v vs 12v batts in a few forums. It seems depending who you query it matters much or doesn't. I gather the 6v by design can handle a lower DoD over their 12v brethren. On a price to performance note, the Sam's Club 31 group size 105Ah AGM deep cycle (East Penn Deka Intimidators rebranded Duracell) are $169 each. I just bought this one last week. I took my voltmeter and choose the one with highest voltage. (The few others were within 2 tenths and had same 'born' date of 6/17). By the way, FLA are not an option in my Metris build.

I assume you mean I shouldn't add a 3rd at a later date due to recommendation that all batteries be of the same age?

 

[John61CT]

Just figure the weakest link will set the performance for the whole bank.

If you at least match the batt model, not too long after, a minor issue.

The sealed Deka 6V are likely about the same performance as the 12V, since FLA not an option anyway s'all good.

 

[road_ahead]

Just figure the weakest link will set the performance for the whole bank.

If you at least match the batt model, not too long after, a minor issue.

The sealed Deka 6V are likely about the same performance as the 12V, since FLA not an option anyway s'all good.

John you seem to be a big proponent on separate charger and I tend to agree when looking at the featureset vs combi unit.   

Could you point me in the right direction for a couple very good/best AC - to DC mulit-stage charger with temp comp for a AGM bank?  What do you think of this AMZN review where the owner says of the ProNauticP not being appropriate for AGM --- from the end of his Automatic Temperature Compensation paragraph, " [size=small] What it all means is that this charger is adequate for FLA batteries, but I would NOT choose this charger for any installation that utilizes expensive AGM or Gel Cell batteries." [/size]https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-...f=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B004NPOT4G

Besides Sterling/Promariner...any other brand/models?

 

[John61CT]

Magnum, Victron, MasterVolt, Outback, Vanner, Samlex.

Several things raised red flags in that review, e.g. power factor is very relevant when trying to get lots of output amps from a limited-kva generator.

And **none** of his "cons" support that negative conclusion.

Temp compensation algorithms don't need to be perfect -if it even is true the PM is off that much - and a perfectionist users can simply make precise adjustments using the custom profile.

Which last may well be unique to PM and Sterling.

Finally, I just don't trust Amazon reviews, take them all with a grain of salt. There are too many paid scamming PR/reputation management firms waging info warfare on the net these days.

When a true real-life professional expert like Maine Sail vouches for it, carries 100 times more weight.

 

[BradKW]

When a true real-life professional expert like Maine Sail vouches for it, carries 100 times more weight.

Then again, he jumped on the  Firefly AGM batteries bandwagon both early and hard, touting benefits and performance that seemed a bit ahead of real world evidence.

Turns out it was too early...and rumors of paid endorsements looked rather credible as problems with the batteries started cropping up. There's a lengthy thread around here by a member who purchased one.

Anyway, just pointing out that everything needs a few grains of salt...    

 

[road_ahead]

I ordered Sterling Power BB1260 DC-DC charger since my '16 Mercedes Metris has the new fangled Regenerative braking / variable output alternator electrical system. The MBVans Upfitter guide says current needs to be limited to 40A, but we'll see about if I can push that to 45 or 50.
For AC charging I went with ProNautic 1250P, its on the way, though I'm still on the fence about going separate charger vs inverter/charger. I took a look at Xantrex recently available Freedom X lineup. Quite impressive specs. I talked to a dealer who didn't recommend Xantrex at first, but admitted further on that they have not had any Freedom Xi come back. The Freedom X with charger (50A on 1,000w model) has a custom charge profile option and 'cold/warm/hot' menu setting for batt temp voltage compensation.

 

[BradKW]

That Freedom Xi looks ok, I like how it has the built-in transfer switch. I don't see any remote being offered tho and that's something you may end up wanting...I'm glad I got one...but maybe it's available. Pretty sure there was a period where Xantrax was using the term "True Sine" on units that weren't actually Pure Sine, so worth taking a closer look.

Having a charger integrated into the unit is like the old VCR-TV combos...once one craps out, it forces suboptimal choices. I guess the transfer switch falls under this too, but a quality new one is around $70 and it doesn't strike me as a wear item...

 

[road_ahead]

That Freedom Xi looks ok, I like how it has the built-in transfer switch. I don't see any remote being offered tho and that's something you may end up wanting...I'm glad I got one...but maybe it's available. Pretty sure there was a period where Xantrax was using the term "True Sine" on units that weren't actually Pure Sine, so worth taking a closer look.

Having a charger integrated into the unit is like the old VCR-TV combos...once one craps out, it forces suboptimal choices. I guess the transfer switch falls under this too, but a quality new one is around $70 and it doesn't strike me as a wear item...

BradKW,  the new Freedom X (model nomenclature could be better chosen) has a built-in 30A transfer switch and an remote, though optional.   The Freedom Xi seems similar in many ways.  Both models in the Xantrex line up come in inverter only and inverter/charger versions.   

I've heard the argument over 'combo' units vs stand alone and for the most part I subscribe to such thinking.  It's great if you have the resources and real estate.  Price wise, it seems as you get up to 2,000 watt versions the cost difference between the two is around $200.  The Xantrex models are roughly $130 and $180 difference at their respective power ratings.  How much does a good 80A AC-DC charger cost these days?  I haven't sat down yet to scribble out an electrical workflow, but with the stand alone units, wouldn't the 'shore power' input need to go to an AC 'breaker box' with one breaker to the AC-DC charger and the other to the inverter/built-in transfer switch?  Where as the combo unit you just go Romex 12/3 single wire in.  So in some ways, I guess it's similar to your VCR-TV combo analogy... it also makes wire hook ups simpler.   

Seems often another advantage of combo units is some added 'power balancing' features can be available when charging batts and AC load simultaneously.  
The Freedom X literature says:    Power Share - Prioritizes AC loads by reducing the charge current and maintaining the total input current to less than the breaker setting.  
I don't think you can get that kind of 'convenience' with separate units, correct me if I'm wrong.

I really appreciate everyone's input and personal experience and opinions.  I try to take it all in and apply it to my continued researching.

 

[John61CT]

> Then again, he jumped on the  Firefly AGM batteries bandwagon both early and hard, touting benefits and performance that seemed a bit ahead of real world evidence.

> Turns out it was too early...

That's not the consensus out in all the other forums.

They are performing perfectly well right up there with Odyssey, Lifeline and Northstar in normal use, and especially so wrt their unique resistance to PSOC abuse.

Some owners saw some minor physical QA issues with the cases, but OceanPlanet NA distributor took full responsibility in servicing the warrantee.

Those "rumors" are scurrilous and completely unwarranted, all the professionals involved have absolute integrity AFAIC. It's fine to be skeptical, wait for long-term evidence to come in, but it is all too easy to sling character assassination mud in forums.

Fact that they cost $500 per 100AH and are several months back-ordered probably means few van dwellers will be reporting in. I suggest you google in the sailing forums to get further updates if you like.