Electric hot water heater and electric induction cooktop

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Gypsy Clipper

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We are considering outfitting a 7x14 foot cargo trailer to use while we get our bus remodeled(because this is a huge undertaking). We would like to power an electric tankless hotwater heater, an induction cook top,a 50" TV, Xbox,two max fans, a microwave, a vitamix blender, a juicer, and a small portable air conditioner. In addition to a large blow dryer,a clipper vac and a recirculating dog bathing system.
I know this sounds like a lot of stuff and surely we won't be operating everything at once. We also will have a generator to deal with days when there is no sun. Money is not an issue. We will purchase the most efficient electric appliances available.

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I clicked on a random Home Depot tankless electric water heater.  It is 27,000 watts, 112 amps of 240 volts.
 
heating anything with electricity is very inefficient. you better have a very long extension cord, or plan on running the generator a lot. highdesertranger
 
slow2day said:
Is this a tongue-in-cheek question or are you serious?

Most people have no idea how huge a battery bank and how many solar panels they would need to match the power they get so easily just by plugging into the electric grid.

Gypsy Clipper, you will NOT be able to run all that stuff off of a solar/battery power set up.  You will need to run the generator each and every time you want hot water or air conditioning.
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
Gypsy Clipper, you will NOT be able to run all that stuff off of a solar/battery power set up.  You will need to run the generator each and every time you want hot water or air conditioning.

I wonder what the power draw of a "recirculating dog bathing system" would be??
 
Yes, if not joking then certainly unrealistically expensive.

Alternatives using propane for heat, DC motors etc can be devised.

But getting even 20% of this kind of daily energy use from solar would require towing like an 8x20 trailer full of panels on the roof.

Not to mention a half ton's worth of batteries.

Anything is possible with like a quarter million budget, but that would be hard to recoup with a doggie salon business.
 
You guys are too awesome! It's not tongue in cheek. But I can understand why that sounds like a lot. But I have friends that live like "normal people" in a 100% off grid house. Having sold my home and my business to spend life on the road.Whether using solar is efficient or not doesn't really seem to be the question.I have been on a rural electric coop for 25 years and having had to spend $9000 just to bring power in and then having to pay .14 kWh plus a $52 monthly service charge and having been forced to use propane for cooking and heating at rates of over $2.00 per gallon I consider being totally responsible for producing my own electricity priceless.
If I took the time to figure out how much I had spent to be tied to the grid I know any amount I spend now is minor.
And to answer the question about the recirculating bather. It is basically a small trash pump submerged in about four inches in the tub. The soapy water us drawn up through the base of the pump and discharged through a four foot section if garden hose with a spray nozzle attached. The benefit is less water usage and a cleaner dog.
Why would this request seem outrageous? I have seen some very fancy semi's out there that run full size appliances and air conditioning systems using only inverters and batteries. If I have the room and the budget for numerous pv panels,batteries and inverters couldn't I replicate a system on a smaller off grid system?

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I'm not optimistic you'd be able to power that tankless water heater. If you had a well-insulated water heater tank, you might be able to use the excess power from your panel to heat a 12volt element to heat the water. Not sure how practical that is though. I'd think it's probably fine for heating a bowl of soup but probably not enough for a shower. I know that for wind power, they have to have a diversion method for excess power, but not so sure about solar. In either case, I can't imagine the power required for an electric tankless heater.

I suppose you could also just use the old "ABS solar water heater" method. If you could have that fill a well insulated internal tank with that heated water, you might be onto something. Of course, this all might be as likely as witnessing a bare-chested Bob Wells arriving at the RTR on a unicorn.

And... there's always "on demand" outdoor propane water heaters. Just mount it on the exterior of your rig. Probably the easiest solution for your needs.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007EC2L68/ref=sr_1_5

-T
 
Okay. Now let's take both the water heating(propane it is)and the ambient air heating(Again... propane)out of the question. And let's also take the demands of the dog grooming equipment(a propane powered or gas generator running for four hours a day)out of it also.
Let's say I want to run two max air fans,a laptop,a 50" television,an Xbox, an air conditioner,a microwave and numerous other small appliances such as my juicer and my blender.
Let's say I have room for six 315 watt panels, two 5000 watt inverters and six 420 amp hour batteries and two mppt charge controllers. Would that be enough to live like a small off grid house?


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Seeing Bob on the unicorn has to be the funniest image I can imagine. Thanks for that.

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it's not really the solar that's inefficient per se, it's the heating with electricity. no matter the voltage in takes huge amounts of electricity to heat anything. highdesertranger
 
Gypsy Clipper said:
But I have friends that live like "normal people" in a 100% off grid house.

How many batteries and solar panels do they have? That amount might be way more than you can put on a 7x14 trailer. What do they power with their system? What type of house do they have and how well is it insulated? Many,many variables you need to consider.

Gypsy Clipper said:
If I have the room and the budget for numerous pv panels,batteries and inverters couldn't I replicate a system on a smaller off grid system?

Having the room and weight carrrying capacity for batteries on a small trailer is a HUGE if. Semis compared to a little bitty trailer is apples to oranges.
There are online calculators that can help you figure how much solar you need. Also calculators for generator sizing.

BTW: A quick search for 315w panels shows a size of 78.5" x 39.4" and six of those would need about 129sq.ft. of space. That means you would need a least a 7x18 trailer. Plus, the batteries would weigh over 700lbs. and take up quite a bit of space.
 
Yes, you need to do some of the legwork here.

Learn how to find out how to do an energy budget, measure electrical usage for each load device, in AH per minute​ or hour. Then estimate how long per day they'll be in use, come up with kWatt hours total per day.

> Whether using solar is efficient or not doesn't really seem to be the question.

"Efficiency" is not the issue, except in the sense of "how many AH per day gets generated in average weather per square meter"


> I have been on a rural electric coop for 25 years and having had to spend $9000 just to bring power in and then having to pay .14 kWh plus a $52 monthly service charge and having been forced to use propane for cooking and heating at rates of over $2.00 per gallon I consider being totally responsible for producing my own electricity priceless.

> If I took the time to figure out how much I had spent to be tied to the grid I know any amount I spend now is minor.

No, renewable sources costs **lots** more than grid power, even amortized over say twenty years.

> Why would this request seem outrageous? I have seen some very fancy semi's out there that run full size appliances and air conditioning systems using only inverters and batteries.

Really? How many? You talking like a 40' mobile home type trailer, eighteen wheeler sized?

Yes, that would be about what it takes.

Just the "air conditioner from batteries" part is a **huge** challenge, very expensive, like 5x the other stuff you're talking about.

A generator will need to run nearly as long as the A/C does, all the huge battery bank does is let you not have to run them both at the same time.

With **very** good weather, **lots** of solar panels will get you 3-4 hours of A/C maximum.

Less than optimal weather, you'd need an 8*40' trailer.

Start off with a big bank, charged by a good genny powered system, plus a little solar for "the long tail" getting the bank to 100%. Or if money is really no object, budget $15,000 or so for a decent LFP bank.

Make sure all appliances are as efficient as possible, using propane and 12V DC native as much as possible.

Then add maximum solar you have room for on the roof, will likely cut down on genny runtime by a few hours a day.
 
I am personally not a fan of lithium-ion batteries.  I prefer my technology to be tried and true rather than "cutting edge" which I think is just another way of saying "semi-experimental".

Still, you might want to take a look at Technomadia's lithium-ion/solar bus conversion for some inspiration on how something like that can be done.  Lith-ion batteries weigh a lot less and can be run down far more than lead-acid can without damage.

http://www.technomadia.com/solar/
 
That is quite the tall order. Lets start out with what you can get to power all of this stuff with. A 300+ watt pane; is 77x39. You can get four of these on the cargo trailers roof meaning 1200-1300 watts of solar. Out of that you should see production of 1000-1100 watts of usable power during peak times. I have 1185 watts so I can relate on the power side of it.

I do run some of the things you mention but in different ways. I have a propane water heater that I added a 450w Hott rod 120v electric heater. I have a two burner electric stove top that the small burner pulls 470w. The 120v side of my propane refrigerator pulls 462w. I have a 400w electric heater and a 200w ceramic heater that I use on cool clear days instead of the furnace. Best of all I have a 5000 BTU A/C that pulls 450w. At peak times on a clear day I can run any two of these without taking power from the bank.

You will notice that all of those items are low watt and long term use. I also run higher, short term use items like hair dryer, vacuum, coffee maker, power tools and a microwave that pulls 1375w for up to 18 minutes. The low wattage items can run for hours and the solar will cover the load without affecting the batteries. The high draw items pull from a 675 Ah bank and the solar replaces what it did not cover. In the case of the microwave the solar covers all but 3-400 watts of the load. That kind of bank can do a lot when the sun doesn't shine too, just remember you have to put the power back in somehow.

Tankless water heaters take a large, no make that huge amount of power AND require a certain water pressure making them wasteful both ways.

I have seen induction burners around 800w. That would run all day off of a 1200 watt system.

The blender, microwave, vacuum and hair dryer are all short term, high load items that might be better on the generator if you decide against a giant system.

You mention a 50 inch TV and modern TV's do not use the kind of power they use too. Then again should you crank up the volume it will suck up some considerable juice. You should consider what is the most you will use the different loads because you need to consider what kind of bank you will run. It will take some considerable storage to make it through a rainy daywith the items you have listed. This is the other reason for all of my low wattage devices, they take the smallest bite out of the bank when the soar can not cover them. My 675 Ah bank does not weigh a half ton but a mere quarter ton.

With that large of a array you will be over paneling a 80a MPPT and the next step up is a 150a MPPT. Know that they take up some room at those sizes. The wiring is going to be pretty healthy too.

So what you ask is possible in a fashion. I say that because you will have a lot of power coming in but it isn't a wall outlet and unlimited. The other thing is life would be grand if it were sunshine and lollipops everyday but clouds seem to pop up in the sunniest locale. Go through a nice long monsoon and you will be glad you have that generator.
 
OK. Again let me say that you guys are brilliant! I am willing to deal with a little negativity to get to the answers.
So far what I have come away with is that a small trailer will not support my plan. Which is fine. I really wanted a bus anyway. I just was trying to come up with a more economical tow vehicle. My schoolie that I had been planning on picking up in ten days is apparently too large and uneconomical for my partner. So we have agreed on a shuttle bus. I have plans to go see a few this weekend.
Now I have done some homework and have discovered how many watts most of my appliances will need. But apparently I need to start over in my design. Thank you all for your help so far. The Tesla battery seems ideal but I think I am a few years too early to take advantage of that technology.


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LiFePo, Lithium batteries are not experimental. They are a proven, but expensive, power bank. They are used in marine applications as well as some RV. The various lead acid chemistries are the easy way to start with a battery bank. Lead batteries are very reliable if maintained.
 
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