deep cell battery cut-off switch

[highdesertranger]

you will have the memory on the radio and engine computer as a constant draw. this is at a minimum, might have other things. however those two should not kill the battery. I wish a member in your area would come forward and give you a hand. highdesertranger

 

[Trebor English]

That's what I want to do--manually--and easily, turn off the connection.  Raising the hood is very difficult for me, so really need an easy way to do it.

I  offer a 3 step method to attack your problem.  Steps one and two get you to not having a dead battery by disconnecting.  Step 3 gets you to a better fix.

Step one:
Get a stick like 1x2 or broomstick that is long enough, maybe 5 feet. You can put the stick between the ground and the front edge of the hood.  That way you can push it up a bit and let the stick hold it.  Then you can change your position and move it up some more.  This way you don't lift it up with one hand while you engage the prop rod with the other hand.

Step two:
Harbor Freight is often derided here.  They have a product that might meet your need.  It is a battery disconnect switch.  Get two, one for each battery.
http://www.harborfreight.com/battery-disconnect-switch-97853.html
If the marine battery has threaded studs for connection then this might be better.
http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-battery-cutoff-switch-66789.html
Any auto mechanic should be able to install them and then show you how to use them.

Step three:
Again, often derided Harbor Freight has a cheap meter, $6.  Sometimes they are free with a coupon.  Amazon sells similar meters at similar prices.
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html

If money is not a problem Amazon sells a clamp on amp meter for $35.  Make sure that what you get can measure DC current.  AC only is cheaper but your batteries are DC.  For $35 it is worth it.  Think of it as only $29 more than $6.  See below for note 1  "man math."
https://www.amazon.com/Signstek-UT210E-Handheld-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B00V9XAT4Y

With the meter you can measure both battery voltages.  If they are identical, start the engine.  If they stay identical your batteries are tied together and some kind of an isolation solution needs to be addressed.

With everything turned off and the the engine off and both batteries disconnected set the meter to the 10 amp current scale and measure the current that passes when you measure across the open battery disconnect switches.   With the clamp meter connect each battery, one at a time, and clamp on to either battery cable to measure the current.

Report those current readings back to this forum and there will be help.

Note 1:  Man math  -  the tool is free.  If you paid someone to do the job it would cost you more than the tool.  Since you saved that much money, the tool is free.  That's why men have tools.  They are free.

Note 2:  Tuition can be expensive.  If you find and pay a professional to do the job and you watch, what you paid for got the job done and got you the training.  The price paid the tuition.

 

[MrNoodly]

He said no, too complicated/expensive.

He's either lazy or has no clue what he's talking about.

 

[WalkaboutTed]

Ella,
I sent you a PM, don't know if you saw it.
Ted

 

[Ella1]

Hi, Ted, Thanks, No, no new messages yet. It might be taking the scenic route.

 

[Ella1]

I  offer a 3 step method to attack your problem.  Steps one and two get you to not having a dead battery by disconnecting.  Step 3 gets you to a better fix.

Step one:
Get a stick like 1x2 or broomstick that is long enough, maybe 5 feet. You can put the stick between the ground and the front edge of the hood.  That way you can push it up a bit and let the stick hold it.  Then you can change your position and move it up some more.  This way you don't lift it up with one hand while you engage the prop rod with the other hand.
That might work for me. I can give it a try.
Step two:
Harbor Freight is often derided here.  They have a product that might meet your need.  It is a battery disconnect switch.  Get two, one for each battery.
http://www.harborfreight.com/battery-disconnect-switch-97853.html
If the marine battery has threaded studs for connection then this might be better.
http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-battery-cutoff-switch-66789.html

Harbor Freight is actually on my list to go to. I'll add these items to my list to check out.

Any auto mechanic should be able to install them and then show you how to use them.
A potential problem is that the marine battery is under the van, and I have no idea where, or of the ease of availability.
I have a recommendation for a different mechanic. I'll look into that on Monday.

Step three:
Again, often derided Harbor Freight has a cheap meter, $6.  Sometimes they are free with a coupon.  Amazon sells similar meters at similar prices.
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html
I'll have to watch for HF ads. I usually toss junk mail without looking at it.

If money is not a problem Amazon sells a clamp on amp meter for $35.  Make sure that what you get can measure DC current.  AC only is cheaper but your batteries are DC.  For $35 it is worth it.  Think of it as only $29 more than $6.  See below for note 1  "man math."
https://www.amazon.com/Signstek-UT210E-Handheld-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B00V9XAT4Y

With the meter you can measure both battery voltages.  If they are identical, start the engine.  If they stay identical your batteries are tied together and some kind of an isolation solution needs to be addressed.

With everything turned off and the the engine off and both batteries disconnected set the meter to the 10 amp current scale and measure the current that passes when you measure across the open battery disconnect switches.   With the clamp meter connect each battery, one at a time, and clamp on to either battery cable to measure the current.

Report those current readings back to this forum and there will be help.
I appreciate your guidance. I will try to understand all this, and look into these items.
A major problem for me is electricity: I unplug the lamp and move the cord away from the wall before changing a light bulb :huh:    I'll get a trickle charger. I'll study all the responses to better understand. There's things I need better understanding on. I do have a question.  WalkaboutTed said, in post 6 "if you just cut off the deep cycle battery with no charging at all, you'll kill it with neglect."   So I ask about the wisdom of cutting the marine battery away from the van battery. Just trying to understand.  

Note 1:  Man math  -  the tool is free.  If you paid someone to do the job it would cost you more than the tool.  Since you saved that much money, the tool is free.  That's why men have tools.  They are free.

Note 2:  Tuition can be expensive.  If you find and pay a professional to do the job and you watch, what you paid for got the job done and got you the training.  The price paid the tuition.

Thanks so much for your input!  

 

[Ella1]

Somehow, I will get the hood open to attach a trickle charger.
If I keep the charger attached to the van battery when I'm not going to be driving for several days, which is very common, will that solve my marine battery problems and my van battery problems? Is it safe to leave the charger on fo days or a week at a time? How long can it stay on without damaging?

 

[Ella1]

you will have the memory on the radio and engine computer as a constant draw. this is at a minimum, might have other things. however those two should not kill the battery. I wish a member in your area would come forward and give you a hand. highdesertranger

Thanks HDR. Ted's pm still has not arrived- a couple of hours later. After the decision is made as to what the best thing to do is, even if it's to dismantle the marine battery, and remove it, and an approximation of cost, perhaps someone will. Of course I will pay for the work, it is work I cannot do. If this situation can be resolved with a trickle charger, that would work for me.

 

[Trebor English]

With the suggested disconnect switches you can temporarily isolate parts of the systems for both stopping discharge temporarily and for diagnosis. Once your system is understood it may be that you need a charger or maybe you only need to leave things disconnected when parked for more than a week. Ted is right. Extended neglect is likely not a good plan. Having switches gives you options to separate parts to figure out what is going on. At this point you only know that something is killing batteries.

 

[Ella1]

He's either lazy or has no clue what he's talking about.

Mr Noodly, I've been using that garage for about 7 years, and this is only the second time I've wondered about them. It seems to be time for a change. Not necessarily that he couldn't or wouldn't do this, but he didn't even offer a recommendation re a different shop. Same thing happened with the other problem.

 

[John61CT]

Many mechanics have few clues about electric, and many professionals don't like to admit ignorance.

The charger can remain attached without causing harm, may help the immediate problem, but not really solving underlying issues.

 

[WalkaboutTed]

Oops, I sent an email by mistake. I re-sent it as a private message.

 

[Ella1]

Many mechanics have few clues about electric, and many professionals don't like to admit ignorance.

The charger can remain attached without causing harm, may help the immediate problem, but not really solving underlying issues.

I woke up this morning with a few questions:
I've had this van since 1998, had the marine battery added in about 2001. I haven't had time to go through all the papers, but I do not remember ever having had battery problems, other than aging out.  I did have one ongoing problem that turned out to be fuel line related.
April 8, 2015 the present marine battery was installed because the other battery was dead, had been since at least Dec 1, 2014 when it was tested at my request. I was planning a couple of longer trips, and wanted to be sure I'd have that power.
I did not have the new one put in until April because that's when I planned to be gone, and the battery would be fresh.

Eight months later, on Dec. 22, 2015, I needed a jump start. The mechanic installed a new alternator and new van battery.

Now, ~13 months later, I need a new battery.  Is it possible that the alternator is the problem here? They did keep it overnight to try to determine a different problem, but apparently not.
Should I take it back to them and have them check the marine battery and charge it if needed?


Another question: If I simply have the marine battery removed (2 years old) what else would have to be done?
Any wires removed, etc? If I don't have that power, I would have to use shore power.

 

[Ella1]

Any ideas on how fast one of the electrical people will take to determine the problem?
And then repair it?
Someone of you might have an idea as fars as diagnosis, but it's probably unknowable, at least as far as repair. Would repair time be known after diagnosis, so I would have a cost estimate beyond the diagnosis?

 

[Trebor English]

It is possible that the problem is the alternator or the battery or the inverter doesn't really turn off or that there is a light on or the other battery is dead or that you have a solenoid and it is bad or the engine computer doesn't go into sleep mode properly.

You have to find a person to diagnose. The alternative is to randomly change parts until you happen to hit the right one. There are people on this forum who can diagnose the problem. Get a volt meter and post here the voltages of the two batteries with the engine off. That will lead to the next question. It might take 20 questions. That could take 2 days of back and forth to get a diagnosis.If you can find a competent person locally it could take 2 hours.

If you pm me I can lead you through this. If I get a pm I can respond quickly. Texting could work fast too.

 

[SternWake]

I also know many very competent mechanics who could never in a million years diagnose your issues, and simply throw parts at it, like a new battery and alternator and send you on your way with a false confidence and several hundred dollars poorer.

A Zillion possibilities exist as to why you needed a jumpstart.

If you parked next to me I could diagnose it in 5 minutes or less.

I will guess, that a simple continuous duty solenoid has failed, leaving your engine and house batteries in parallel always. When two different age/style batteries are left in parallel at quite a distance away from each other, one will always feed the other to some degree, and both are poorer for it.

Diagnosing I would first locate the isolation device, likely the solenoid, but if it were a finned heat sink Diode based 'Isolator' I would condemn it and recommend it be replaced with a simple continuous duty solenoid as A diode based isolator is basicly a choke point which drops voltage and ensures a undercharged unhealthy house battery.

Second i would take engine battery voltage, and house battery voltage, engine off, and compare. Then I would start engine and compare voltage again. Also take voltage on each side of the solenoid/isolator in both examples though the readings would likely be redundant, but could also pinpoint a problem in the circuit instantly.

I would use my clamp op Ammeter to see how much amperage the alternator was delivering into other battery

The Voltage results after engine start would point to the failed component, if Any.

i would also do a parasitic load test. The parasitic draw can be higher than normal for a multitude of reasons, and with a failed solenoid can easily draw both batteries down to dangerous levels.

one member here recently found their map light had been on but dimmed so low as to not be noticed, and that what was depleting their battery.

Also, regular flooded batteries self discharge, about 15% per month. the rate varies with their health and ambient temperature. hotter and less healthy means faster self discharge and under 80% charged the batteries are sulfating and losing capacity and the ability to store electricity at a faster rate. The longer they sit at less than 80% and the lower they go below 80% charged, the more damage is done to their capacity. yes they can be recharged, but if they held 15 'gallons' before, they might now only be able to hold 10 gallons and would be harder and take longer to fill up with that reduced 10 gallons

A battery that needs a jumpstart Simply cannot be fully recharged in less than 5.5 hours. It is simply impossible. It is likely that 10+ hours of driving would be needed for the battery to reach 99%, and that last 1% on an unhelathy battery could requre another 5 hours of driving. A 40 minute highway drive 'might' be able to get it in the 80% range, but that 80% to 100% range simply cannot be done in less than 4 hours under ideal conditions/ voltages, and that is extremely unlikely to occur in a vehicle.

And that 5.5 hours would be with a high amperage charging source seeking and holding IDEAL charging voltages. the alternator is simply not allowed to seek and attain these ideal voltages as GM, or any auto manufacturer, never intended the alternator to be recharging an additional depleted battery tacked onto the engine battery. They intended the alternator to support all vehicle electical loads, and to top off a very slightly depleted engine starting battery, and the these two tasks, recharging a depleted additional battery, and a recharging a slightly depleted engine with the headlights on are two very different objectives.

When a battery is so depleted, the vehicle requires a jumpstart, the worst thing one can do is drive it for 15 minutes and park it again and let it sit. It is like giving CPR to a drowning victim until they cough the water from their lungs, regain consciousness, then sitting on their chest.

Such a battery is not even back upto 50% charged, and will be progresively damaged by sitting at this very low state of charge. It will self discharge again, requiring another jumpstart. and the deterioration is already so extreme, one then blames the alternator, or isolation device, or battery, when the fault lies in the hands off the human who did not recharge the battery to full after it required a jump start.

It is entirely possible your symptoms are not caused by failure of any device, but are caused by self discharge of the battery(s), and not recharging the batteries after the jumpstart in combination with not driving enough regularly to combat the self discharge.

Not saying this is the case, but it is entirely possible.

If other recommendations as to acquiring paid help do not pay out, Look up 'Automotive electric' in your immediate area.

Keep in mind what you thnk you know about what has possibly failed/occurred, is of no benefit to the person who arrives and needs to diagnose the issue. They have to start from scratch, and your suspicions as to the cause of failure learned here, will likely not save them any time, nor affect their honesty.

But it is certainly wise to learn the possibilities, and your questions are good ones.

 

[Ella1]

A CRVL member has offered help, so by midweek I should have a pretty good idea of what we'll do.

A neighbor is going to attach a trickle charger tomorrow for a few hours.
Which battery should he attach it to, the van battery or the marine battery?
He does not want to leave it attached long, but will attach it the next day. Is that reasonable?

Thank you all so very much. I cannot tell you how grateful I am to all of you for your generosity of time and thoughts on this.

 

[SternWake]

I trickle charger is generally 2 amps. Ther is little danger of leaving it on for too long, on either battery.

In fact most people think much more charging occurs than actually occurs when a trickle charger is applied.

Much depends on the charger and who deemed it being a 'trickle' charger.

if a make and model of this charger could be posted more details could be given

 

[Ella1]

I should be able to get that tomorrow.

 

[Ella1]

I should be able to get that tomorrow.

OH, which battery should he attach it to--the van battery or the marine battery?