Connecting multiple loads - straight to chrge controller/battery, or need separate..

[pseudo]

Connecting multiple loads - straight to charge controller or battery, or do I need a separate "breaker box" of some sort?

New to solar and although I have a basic general understanding of the way it all works, I have a few specific questions.

Thinking of going with this and a 125AH AGM battery (I don't have anywhere to build a vented box to store a non AGM one...)

I just want to be able to charge a laptop via an inverter, have a couple of spare 12V outlets, run a few LED lights and a car stereo with a couple of 6x9 speakers for a few hours a day.

1) Is the kit linked above decent value for money and will it run what I need it to combined with a 125AH battery?
Is a 125AH battery a good match for a 100W panel and a 30A controller?
My understanding is that say my laptop power supply draws around 10A, the stereo about the same,the LEDS just a few amps. So let's say 25A total for the sake of simplicity. I could therefore run that stuff for 5 hours, divided by 2 since the battery shouldn't be discharged more than 50%. So 2.5 hours... Is that (more or less) correct?
What about running stuff while the battery is being charged? It'l just increase the charging time?

2) Would I be better off buying the components separately and getting a better (MPPT?) charge controller? Can that be done for close to the same price?

3) Connections-wise, can I connect the inverter, the lights , the 12v outlets and the stereo directly to the battery (or the charge controler) terminals?
That seems to me like it would be a mess of wires... But it it safe to do/will it work? If not, how do I go about it? Some kind of box that everything feeds into, with fuses, that then outputs 2 wires which would be connected to the battery or controller terminals?

4) Until I can work up the courage to mount the panel to the roof, could I leave it behind the windshield during the day and get enough juice to charge the battery?

Phew, I think that's allfor now... Thanks in advance!

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

3) Connections-wise, can I connect the inverter, the lights , the 12v outlets and the stereo directly to the battery (or the charge controler) terminals?
That seems to me like it would be a mess of wires... But it it safe to do/will it work? If not, how do I go about it? Some kind of box that everything feeds into, with fuses, that then outputs 2 wires which would be connected to the battery or controller terminals?

To avoid "a mess of wires" plan on using a couple of Bus Bars. Amazon sells a number of them.

Regards
John

---

3) Connections-wise, can I connect the inverter, the lights , the 12v outlets and the stereo directly to the battery (or the charge controler) terminals?
That seems to me like it would be a mess of wires... But it it safe to do/will it work? If not, how do I go about it? Some kind of box that everything feeds into, with fuses, that then outputs 2 wires which would be connected to the battery or controller terminals?

To avoid "a mess of wires" plan on using a couple of Bus Bars. Amazon sells a number of them.

Regards
John

 

[Lucky mike]

Right off the bat.....your going to need another panel you wont have enough recovery from the panel......you might want to look at a few systems From home depots site...to get an idea....

I personally would not run a system that small......a 100 watt panel on a good day is only returning 50 to 70 watts......and if your going to be running an inverter and other things for 2 or 3 hours your battery is going to start to have issues quick

thats a good starter kit but I would add a 160 panel soon afterwards to the system

 

[WheelEstate USA]

I know of 3 friends using that panel kit, one which I installed. They all ordered the second panel ($149) and all are very pleased with the results.
One friend shopped locally and got his whole set-up for less than the cost of 1 panel and no controller around town. I like that this controller allows for expansion also.

 

[SternWake]

Always hook things to the battery. A buss bar for the negative load side, A fuse block for the positive side will help organize things.

Usually the terminals on charge controllers are too small for multiple wire connectons anyway.

A laptop which can draw 10 amps, does not mean it will always draw 10 amps. It depends on the task it is doing.

Mine can draw about 7.5a with a dead battery and streaming movies, but right now is pulling 1.8a.

My stereo, just a basic unamplified Sony head unit can draw about 10 amps at full volume with a lot of Bass in the music, but at non ear shattering levels is much less than this.

What was unexpected is that turning off the rear speakers has no effect on amp draw.

Use Quality Ciggy plugs, and see if there is a laptop "car adapter" for your make and model. It will use less electricity than using an inverter to power the original power brick.

The weak spot with these is the ciggy plugs themselves. They heat up, the springs get weaker causing a worse connection which wastes more energy as heat, which weakens the spring even more, which creates more heat, and on and on until failure.

I now use Anderson Powerpole connectors(45 amp) for most all connections. Ciggy plugs are convenient and are fine for small loads, but bigger loads for longer is going to cause issues at some point.

It is hard to have too much solar. If you can eventually afford, and fit another panel, you should use fatter wire now, so you do not have to run fatter wire later when there is more current to pass. I don't consider these solar kits to be good deals as the wire size is usually barely adequate, but I have not shopped lately nor checked out what you are getting

MPPT is a lot more money and more finicky as to wire size and voltage drop. More effective is more panel if there is room for it.

Any solar is better than no solar, but 100 watts per 100 amp hours of battery is better, and more is better than that.

Most batteries will list recommended charge rates as a percentage of capacity. Some AGM batteries like Odyssey want a 40% initial charge rate when cycled deeply. Other AGM batteries like Universal battery and their rebranded asian counterparts want no MORE than 20% but do not list a minimum required.

100 watts of solar will realistically be about 5.5 amps around 90 minutes before and after solar noon. That would be a 5.5% charge rate on a 100 amp hour battery at high noon.

The battery is not going to die instantly if not fed the recommended minimum bulk current. But it will last longer and perform better the closer you can come to meeting the manufacturer recommended charging amps and volts.

Solar is great for minimizing the daily draw, but it is not great at restoring a battery to full energy density every day when the battery is cycled to 50%. Other chargings sources need to assist in this matter, every so often, to insure a 100% recharge.

A weekly 100% recharge will make any cycled battery much happier. The hard part is insuring that that is possible.

Most people way overestimate how much the alternator returns, and way underestimate how much battery capacity they use.

 

[akrvbob]

I'll give you my answers in line in red:

1) Is the kit linked above decent value for money and will it run what I need it to combined with a 125AH battery? Yes that is a good value for the money.
Is a 125AH battery a good match for a 100W panel and a 30A controller? The rule of thumb is 1 to 1 watts on the panel to ah in the battery, so they are well matched.
My understanding is that say my laptop power supply draws around 10A, the stereo about the same,the LEDS just a few amps. So let's say 25A total for the sake of simplicity. I could therefore run that stuff for 5 hours, divided by 2 since the battery shouldn't be discharged more than 50%. So 2.5 hours... Is that (more or less) correct? Yes, you have a good grasp on it. I also doubt the laptop actually uses 10 amps, that a lot.
What about running stuff while the battery is being charged? It'l just increase the charging time?

2) Would I be better off buying the components separately and getting a better (MPPT?) charge controller? Can that be done for close to the same price? You probably can't match that deal with a MPPT controller. So if money is your top priority, you can't beat this system. You can get a better, higher quality system but it will be more expensive. Especially when you factor in free shipping.

3) Connections-wise, can I connect the inverter, the lights , the 12v outlets and the stereo directly to the battery (or the charge controler) terminals? The inverter should always be connected directly to the battery and NOTHING should be connected to the controller. You can connect everything else all to the battery but you are better off with a fuse block. This is the one I recommend from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B001P6FTHC/

When hooking up the fuse block use 4 gauge wire and put an in-line fuse on the positive wire at the battery.


4) Until I can work up the courage to mount the panel to the roof, could I leave it behind the windshield during the day and get enough juice to charge the battery? A 100 watt panel will barely give you enough power by itself and having it inside will greatly reduce it. It either needs to be on the roof or outside aimed at the sun.

Bob

 

[pseudo]

Thanks for all the in-depth and informative answers This kit sounds like an ok starting point...

A few more questions then:

If I want to add another 100W panel in the future, what gauge wire should I go for instead of the ones supplied with the kit? DO I need specific wire for solar with a special kind of connector? One male and one female?

Maybe I should just save up a bit more and go for the 200W kit straight off the bat... Hmmmm

What's the best way to mount the panel to a conversion van's fiberglass roof and the best way to feed the wire through the side of the van to minimize the risk of leaks?

Do I need to worry about grounding anything? (I'm guessing the stereo at least?)

Looking at that fuse block Bob posted, I don't understand how everything connects to it - each 'input' only seems to have one terminal (positive?), so where does the negative side of each load connect to? I need a separate 'buss bar' as well as the fuse block? There's no 'all-in-one' solution?

And when you say "put an in-line fuse on the positive wire at the battery" does that mean on the wire going from the positive output of the fuse block to the positive terminal of the battery? If so, what amperage fuse and what would I use as a fuse 'holder'?

Thanks again for all the help, I love this forum!

 

[SternWake]

I have a 8 awg lead from my 130 watt panel to charge controller and a 10 awg lead from my 68 watt panel to charge controller . Some might say overkill, but when one adds up the total circuit length, not just the half of it as most do, It is not.

I used my fiberglass and woodworking skills to fabricate aerodynamic feet for my 130 watt panel which does allow me to tilt the panel (though I almost never do) No roof penetrations for mounting for me, but then I went and drilled a few holes to feed the wire inside under the panel anyway.

There is some wood internal to the fiberglass roof. Mine has 4 inch wide OSB runners sandwiched between the fiberglass, a little bit of dense foam too. Getting some fat course threaded screws into this OSB or hopefully Plywood, along with an adhesive caulk on the feet should prove sturdy and leakproof. Getting wood or sheet metal screws to hold properly in fiberglass requires exacting predrilling mating screw core diameter to drill bit, and being ultra careful to not overtighten. I would not trust wood/sheetmetal screws into only the fiberglass.

If you have easy access to the ceiling you can go with nuts and bolts and big washers for even more security. Make sure to use Stainless steel. The quality of the sealant used is paramount, normal household caulk will not stand the test of time. 3M products like 5200 fast cure is able to withstand submersion duties on submerged through hull fittings on boats. Kind of overkill. Does overkill give you the warm and fuzzies? Your choice.

If the gel coat or pain on your fiberglass roof is still in good condition 3M sells a VHB(very high bond) double sided tape which is reported to keep panels snug. But if the roof has been repainted the strength is only as strong as the paints adhesion to the substructure. Not worth the risk In my opinion

I used a few cord grips for the roof penetrations. Last thing I wanted was wire hanging down the side Flapping in the wind, advertising "CamperVan!!!/ Solar uptop!!! many electronic goodies inside!!! Please Steal!!!!" cause I was afraid to drill a hole in my roof.

These are waterproof.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cor...AHJioCIAw&ved=0CEcQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=681&dpr=1

You stereo is already grounded. Charge controllers do introduce electrical noise which can cause interference on radio or TV. The instructions will state NEC code for residential installations, which will say to ground the frame of the panel. Obviously you are not going to be driving a copper rod into the earth every time you stop just to ground you panel frame.

My charge controller actually fits inside a standard household electrical box. I have grounded this metal case to my frame.

That fuse block Bob linked to already has a (-) buss bar at the top. BlueSeas products are first rate.

I use a simpler ATC fuse block and separate buss bar for the (-)
Though mine has 10 circuits and not 6 as shown in the following link:

http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=97002

Fuses are there to protect the wire incase of a short to ground. They are not there to protect appliances attached to the circuit. I take extra measures to insure that the large wires cannot short to ground. I take power from my battery switch for my fuse block, a Distance of about 8 inches.

Fuses should be rated at the maximum amperage of the wiring it is protecting. You should not, although you can, fuse at a lesser rating. There are many options for large fuses of 100 amps or more,

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_6wo2his5es_b

Stereo shops are good places to have wiring and cabling terminations made up for you as the good clean connections are just as important of using adequate gauge wiring for the load. If you cannot solder, or use a crimper properly, do not try and learn on your battery cables. Proper tools and technique are required. You cannot just crush wire inside a crimp and call it macaroni, and cold solder joints are dangerous. Lots of arguments as to which method is better. I have a Hydraulic crimper but will solder also. Depends on the circuit I am working on.

What really stinks is having to do a job twice, like rerunning more wire or upgrading wire when demands increase, as they always do. 'Good enough for now' could easily cost way more later when 'good enough' no longer is. Do it right the first time, and if that means saving up for 200 watts of solar Kit, so be it. Imagine having to relocate one panel on the roof, just so that you can fit two up there.

So get a fuse block with more circuits than you think you need now, and a bussbar that can accommodate many big fat wires as well as small ones

Efforts should be made to keep wiring runs as short as possible. Your electrical wall should have enough slack in the wiring that small adjustments can be made to locations or wire routing as things evolve. Nothing worse than having to add 4 inches to a cable/wire cause it is 3 inches too short to reach

My electrical wall appears to be an absolute mess. it is nearly impossible to get wiring to look neat and organized, even if it might be.

That is not even a current photo of my Electrical wall. I removed the 800 watt MSW inverter and added a third switch so I can direct Solar current to either battery independent of load. Right now My solar is floating my AGM battery and running all loads while my flooded Deep cycle battery is electrically isolated from all loads and being charged by my 2/12/25 amp schumacher charger.

Either battery can be used to start the engine, Either can be used for the house loads, and switching any of my 3 switches to both, parallels the banks. Which I usually only do when driving and I want to blast a depleted battery with Alternator amps, but still have a ridiculous number of CCA to turn over my engine with the merest blip of the starter. I do not leave these 2 batteries to discharge in parallel as the AGM has a much higher resting voltage and will always be trying to charge the Flooded.

I am not saying you need to make things as complicated as I have, it was just to show you how things evolve. Back in '01, I added my first Auxiliary battery and had 2 circuits wired to it. Now I have about 14 separate circuits and many choices as to where I decide the power is to come from or goto.
A lot of my recommendations I list above were things I learned the hard way.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

SternWake, I see you have your inverter mounted vertically, as is mine. Recently, I read in an inverter instruction sheet that it should be horizontal, as there micro switches that can fail.
This is the second one I've had mounted like this and never had any issues.

Can you shed any light on this??

Thanks...I've taken many notes from your tutorials.

 

[SternWake]

I had not heard about the horizontal only mounting method. I did not see it in my instruction manuals, though on the 800 watt coleman that manual was last read a long long time ago.

I know that the internal computer muffin fans employed in many inverters do not like running in the horizontal plane. Especially the fans with just a sleeve bearing as opposed to fluid dynamic, or ball bearing fans.

I did infact replace the fan in the coleman as it had gotten uncomprehendingly loud several years ago. I wish I had researched better replacement fans as the replacement is annoyingly loud enough that I despised that inverter on many levels. I am not 100% sure about the orientation that I used to have that inverter installed before the fan failure, but I think it was horizontal, meaning the fan should not have failed for just that reason. I think my Vertical mounting was switched only within the last few years, and the inverter did not see much use.

Anyway I found that I did not need 800 watts and ripped that 800 watt off my electrical wall to accommodate my third switch and use only the 400 watt PSW Wagan inverter on top. I still have the cables so I can re attach the 800 if I need to run my 6 amp angle grinder or something similar, but for the most part 400 watts is more than enough for my uses.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Ahhh, I see...maybe it was the fan issue, but somehow micro switches stuck in my old head. Don't use the inverter much, but do have to watch for dust build-up (everywhere). A 400 is what I have and haven't needed more...put an 1500 in a box somewhere here.

I'm going to save a few inches and move the 400 to the wall. Replacing a fan is easy peezy.

Thanks.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The instruction manual that comes with Samlex inverters also warn against vertical mounting.

Their explanation is that, because of the air intake and exhaust on those ends, they are worried about small foreign objects falling into the inverter.

Also, they say that, in the event of a catastrophic inverter failure, hot components might fall out of those openings, land on a combustable surface, and start a fire.

Regards
John

 

[SternWake]

Thanks for the Samlex explanation, I can;t argue with that logic. Does not mean I will be remount My Wagan. I just reread the manual can can find no mention of mounting orientation.

 

[pseudo]

Thanks for all the info Sternwake and Bob.
SW, your last post on the first page was a bit overwhelming but I think I have a fairly good idea of where I'm going... Will be keeping it as simple as possible to begin with.

This is what I have in my cart so far:

Kit: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...le_9?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A05654602L3XUQ70M87BV
Fuse block: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000THQ0CQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1UNWS4MSNTF2A
LED: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007SYRZH2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
12v outlet: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WEMH4G/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
In-line fuse holder to go between fuse block and battery: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002KR88A/ref=ox_sc_act_title_8?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AG6426J3M3LG
+ a Kenwood head unit and some 6x9 speakers

Just a few more things to check before I place my order...

I'm thinking of going with one of the DieHard Advanced Gold batteries from Sears: http://www.sears.com/diehard-advanc...p-02850749000P?prdNo=7&blockNo=7&blockType=G7
It's not a "true" deep-cycle but I've read in another thread on this forum and elsewhere that they're decent batteries and well matched to a small solar setup as they don't require such a high charging current?
Could you confirm that the group size 49 I posted above does indeed correspond to the group 49 one on this Deka spec sheet and is therefore 92ah? http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/1737.pdf
I think that should be sufficient for my needs and it will have a better chance of getting a full recharge more often than the 125ah one I was originally considering, right?

With regards to wire sizes and fuses, do I need an in-line fuse between the panel and the CC?

Between the CC and the battery, is 10AWG enough or is 8 better? Do I need an in-line fuse there too? 15A? 30A?

And again, between the fuse block and the battery? 10AWG/15A?

From the LED/stereo/12v outlets to the fuse block, 14AWG is ok for all three of those? And fuse-wise, 5A for LED, 10A for stereo, 15A for 12v outlets?

Are these battery terminals ok to connect the CC and fuse block? http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-BA...=1394435316&sr=8-2&keywords=battery+terminals

For the stereo, I won't be replacing the factory unit with the new one. I'll mount the new one somewhere at the back and connect directly to the house battery. Will I need to ground it then?

And finally, does the house battery itself need to be grounded to the frame somehow??

Phew I think that's it...

 

[SternWake]

I would put a larger Maxi fuse between battery and fuse Block. and probably a 60 amp fuse.
These are larger than ATC fuses, though appear the same in the photo.
http://www.amazon.com/MAXI-Fuse-Hol...id=1394471193&sr=1-1&keywords=maxifuse+holder.

The charge controller instructions will say to put a fuse between controller and battery. They will indicate the size fuse to use. My 25 amp CC requires a a 30 amp fuse. I used a circuit breaker. Some charge controllers say to fuse between panel and controller. I have one on my framed panel, but mostly as a disconnect. The fuse will never blow.

That battery should be fine. I only have experience with one flooded Deka from long ago but it performed well IIRC, and that was before I knew much about proper battery care.

If you are not using the alternator to charge the Aux battery, then it does not need to be grounded to the frame. However I do recommend you do, at some point, make that possible. The alternator can be very effective at bulk charging, from 50 to 80%. It can do in one hour, what might take your solar all day. It is important to make sure the battery is secured properly. Do not rely on only gravity to hold it in place.

The Ubiquitous Ciggy plug receptacles are convenient, but problem prone, when they wiggle loose or are asked to pass 5 amps or more for any duration. I've got 7 outlets in various locations, all fed with 10 or 12awg. But I only trust them for light loads.

That LED light will produce a good amount of light, where mounted. I think you fill find you want more light in other areas. Perhaps leave more wire and use some velcro to be able to move it where most needed when needed.


Those Schumacher battery terminals should be fine. Usually Marine or dual purpose batteries will come with threaded studs as well as Automotive posts. Automotive posts only, might be indicative of a starting only battery, but AGM's blur the line between starter and Deep Cycle duties and those Deka's do have the terms "Starting and Cycling"

Group sizes are pretty well established by the BCI and it seems that Deka is making Sears DHG for them. 100 amp hours of storage for every 100 watts of solar is a good figure to shoot for. Varying that ratio slightly is no big deal. YOu might not find a fresh group 49. While AGM self discharge less, the specs on those deka are not as impressive as some other AGM in this regard. A battery sitting on the shelf for 6 months will have some capacity compromised, so keep some flexibility on the battery choice.

 

[pseudo]

Here's the instructions for the kit: http://renogy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Picture-Manual.pdf
No mention of any fuses between panel and CC or CC and battery.
There's debate on Amazon questions about it too: http://www.amazon.com/between-panel...cd_dp_aar_al_a?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B00BFCNFRM

I got one of those maxi fuse holders and 60A maxi fuse for between fuse block and battery as you suggested.

I'll get another one of those and 30A maxi fuse for CC to battery?
And a regular size inline fuse holder and regular 10A auto fuse for between panel and CC?

Can you also please confirm my wire gauges are ok?
CC to battery and fuse block to battery - 10awg
led/12v outlet/radio to fuse block - 14awg?
And 5A fuse for LED, 15A for 12v outlet and 10A for radio?

I'll make sure to check the date on the battery and bring a volt meter. A healthy voltage for a battery at rest should be 12.4 to 12.6V right?

Thanks again for your invaluable help!

 

[SternWake]

I like Maxifuses in the solar circuit for the larger contact patches for less resistance and less voltage drop across the fuse itself. Perhaps the difference would never be realized.

Wire thickness are pretty much determined by length. I can's say whether 10 gauge is appropriate without knowing hte circuit length. I will guess that it is.

I have 4 awg between my CC and batteries.
I would definitely fuse between CC and battery at 5 amps more than what the max rating of the CC is.

I don't really see much point in a fuse between panel and CC. Can't hurt. The inline glass fuse holders are very problem prone in my experience. I've had several holders fail, and several glass fuses blow yet have the visible fuse still intact. One would show continuity untiul it was asked to pass more than 1 amp. That was a curse fest to figure out. ATC fuse holders are much better, but the cheap chinese fuses likely are way out of spec as to what amperage they are listed at, and where they will blow. Pay the extra for Bussman.

An AGM should be 12.8v+ sitting on the shelf.

I'd have no issues with 14 awg on the LED light circuit, but I'd use 10awg everywhere else, especially if is is SAE rated wire. There is so much voltage drop across ciggy plug receptacles the least you can do is minimize the VD across the wiring from fuse block to receptacle by using 10awg. For the distances you are going to run the 10awg vs the 14awg, you will be saving so little money wise that there is little point.

In 2 years you will not be saying, dang I could have saved 5 bucks by running 14 awg instead of this 10 awg.

If you wanted to retask the wiring for a higher amperage device later on, you will be like, dang I wish I just spent the 5 extra dollars to run 10awg in the first place instead of having to buy it now and rerun it.


My Northstar AGM fully charged resting voltage is 13.06v, and read 12.96 on the shelf

I would not buy an AGM that read 12.4v, unless it was half price and perhaps not even then. I'd always be thinking about the amount of capacity it lost sitting on the shelf undercharged. Half the original capacity at half price, is no deal.

 

[BigT]

Great thread! Answers pretty much all of my questions.
Couldn't find a way to subscribe to it, so I'm replying so it shows up in my history.