kylakemike
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BTW, I will have all of this completed and on the road within a month. Where is everyone? I need to get on down the road and meet some of us fine peoples.
Chevy Astro Van Solar Kit
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kylakemike
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Disregard. Sorry Bob. Off topic. I will take it to the appropriate forum.
SternWake
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I've been keeping my old group31 flooded USbattery in my workshop. I removed it from my van at about 465 deep cycles a few months ago and has another 30 or cycles on it since. It has been powering my former 7" digital TV, and for that duty, at 0.46 amps when on and 0.09amps when just plugged in power off, it works 'just fine'. If I did not have a voltmeter, or an ammeter, or a hydrometer, I might even claim the battery works just like new. But I do, and the battery does not, and simply Can't.
Even if a battery is never discharged at all, never cycled, and kept on a maintainer, at 3 years of age, its capacity has degraded. Whether this lost capacity can be noticed is another matter. Without the tools or the temperament to notice capacity loss, it certainly cannot.
I gave up on grid powered automatic smart chargers a while ago, I use an adjustable voltage power supply capable of 40 amps at any voltage between 13.12 and 19.23v. A voltmeter, an Ammeter, an Amp hour counter and/or a Hydrometer tell me when to turn the voltage down or unplug the power supply.
Trusting Flashing green lights, well you are as well off trusting your local elected representative, who bought the election victory with empty promises.
So This TV was plugged in for a few weeks, basically just abusing my old battery which I removed from my van months ago as specific gravity refused to rise on some cells and the battery was heating excessively under mild charging currents.
My power supply just got a few additional heatsinks epoxied to the casing adjacent to the transistors (heat makers) yesterday with some epoxy formulated for maximum thermal transfer, and I set it to 14.7v and plugged in the power supply to the old battery. 30 initial amps tapered to the mid 10's pretty quickly and voltage rose quickly to 14.4v.
The battery was not really discharged much obviously and is by no means healthy.
But how could I possible test the efficacy of my new heatsinks at a Peasley 10- 20 amps!! How could they ever roast a Locust? I hate undercooked locust.
So I spin my potentiometer, and crank up the voltage. At about 17.4 abusive volts, the battery is taking 40 amps, the limit of the power supply(meanwell rsp-500-15). The battery starts gurgling and fizzing, and I am overwhelmed by the sulfur stink of offgassing at these abusive voltages. Reduce voltage to 14.7v, and amps taper to ~ 8, and I cannot smell it anymore, 18 inches under my nose, but I can still hear the occasional gurgle.
It occurs to me that I only ever smelled this battery charge, when it was charging at those particularly high voltages (14.8 to 16v) that this specific battery required to reach full charge, and the equalization voltages I needed to apply (16v) every 2 to 3 weeks or so to keep the battery viable.
These 12v 'deep cycle' batteries require these rather extreme voltages applied for rather extreme durations in order for them to attain full charge and perform adequately, for an acceptable number of cycles in the 500 range, when discharged to ~50% nightly and recharged properly and promptly..
However, the 6v GC batteries were designed specifically for deep cycling, they are not a car jar starting battery with deep cycleish plates forced inside, and a deep cycle $ticker slapped on the case, but a battery optimized around deep cycling and resistance to cumulative back to back deep discharges from the get go. As such the effort required to maximize the specific gravity, is less, the offgassing, less as well. Electrons turned into heat, less.
I've not personally cycled 6v GC batteries every night, but everything I've read on them by people who can actually read and measure and observe and questions their behavior, state that they are easier to fully charge and can recover from abuse like no 12v battery can.
I believe that charging them at 14.8v or below would make them difficult to smell in the 85% o 100% charged range, much more difficult than 12v marine or other 12v quasi deep cycle batteries at the same states of charge and if pushed to the area required to which 12v batteries can attain a true 100% State of charge
Since they do not offgass when discharging under normal light house loads, much of the offgassing fear can be negated with adequate daytime ventilation when solar has them 'up there'.
With 12v batteries, and my former stinky group31 battery is a top quality 12v 'deep cycle', they simply need to be pushed to the sickeningly sweet smelly state where they offgass, and if they are not pushed there will only perform to 65% compared to as if they were pushed to the stinky stage of 100% every cycle.
Technically, AGM batteries need to be vented as well. No AGM manufacturer will say these are perfectly safe to install and use in a completely sealed container. They will only offgas if overcharged, and the amount they actually release when they do so would be a fraction of a 12v 'deep cycle' or 6v flooded GC battery.
If one is going to have plenty of ventilation in the 85% to 100% charging stages, then only those with super sensitive sniffers will likely realize the batteries are offgassing, and perhaps only if in an enclosed space with no ventilation.
No one in good conscience can say to not worry about offgassing at all, that it can be disregarded as a factor whatsoever. For any flooded battery to fully recharge, offgassing is a requirement, but if that fully recharging stage occurs when the window are open or the vehicle unattended and unventilated, then, well it can be overlooked, perhaps.
I personally really dislike the smell of a battery charging at the 90%+ plus range. I will not have a flooded battery in My Van's living space again, except temporarily.
I do not feel I have the most sensitive sniffer, but I can smell a drink on someone's breathe 6 hours after their last, and I can easily smell an off gassing battery, and I do not like it, and I will avoid it.
Personally I will not regularly inhabit the same space as a charging battery that is charging in the 85%/ 90% to 100%range, but my personal distaste for this might carry too much weight on this forum and cause people to go through extreme efforts to ventilate their batteries to the exterior, Or they might choose AGM instead.
That AGM choice basically requires that one has even more powerful charging sources to satisfy the AGM peculiarities, as they are not as easy to keep them happy, and they cost more for that privilege of expending more effort in properly charging them to 100% ASAP as often as possible. AGM's are a great battery, but they are not mr or mrs happy go lucky. Their Price tag does not make them immune to chronic undercharging, In fact the flooded battery is likely more resistant to chronic undercharging and half the price to boot.
Properly ventilating a charging flooded battery is wise.
Very Very few 12v batteries, even those made solely as deep cycle batteries, can perform as well as a 6v Golf cart battery in deep cycle usage
The 12v Deep cycle battery, pretty much does not exist, not if it is compared to a 6v golf cart battery in the same exact usage.
With AGMs there is crossover, but with flooded batteries, GC batteries cannot be beat, not price wise, capacity wise, or resistance to abuse wise, not at this point in time.
Some 12v Batteries do cross the line into true deep cycle construction. Generally they are a taller battery, A 'scrubber' or industrial battery, and are larger and heavier than any 12v battery you will see in an Autoparts store or Wally world, and cost significantly more too. if treated right they will last significantly longer, and earn their extra price, but of one does not bother and does not care, then one is better off abusing the cheapest marine battery they can find. Just don't get all indignant when it fails to meet one's needs at an early age.
My next flooded deep cycle battery will be the Trojan T-1275. It is a 12v 150AH battery. I Do not need 150AH of capacity, much less the 232 of a pair T-105's in series. 130AH is more than enough in my uses.
But the t-1275 has twice the expected cycle life of the Trojan SCS 225, which is a group 31 'deep cycle' battery, and likely the best 'true' 12v Deep Cycle group 31 sold, in the normal group 24/27/29/31 sizes
My Future T-1275 will go under the hood of My Dodge van, but I need to lower the battery tray to accept its greater height, and I might run into some clearance issues regarding the headlamp socket.
The T-1275 costs the same as the SCS 225 from the closest vendor. ~20 More lbs of lead, 20 more AH capacity, 2x the expected cycle life, and easier to fully charge for the same price.
Sold.
I could not fit a pair of 6v GC batteries under my floor( which can fit two group 27), or in my engine compartment, but if i could, and even though I do not need 232 AH pf total house battery capacity, I would certainly own a pair of GC batteries. Even if my 198 watts of solar is too little for 232 AH of GC batteries, Even if I would never need 116AH of depletion, A pair ot T-105's would outlive any other battery's in the same usage.
12v batteries might be appealing because it seems simpler, but a 12v flooded battery, in deep cycle service, cannot ever be as durable as a pair of 6v Golfcart batteries in series. It is not a capacity issue or a lesser state of discharge issue, it is the fact that GC batteries were designed for Deep cycling originally. group 24/27/29/31 are all BCI group sizes originally designed as Starting batteries. Just because they try and stuff deep cycle plates into these sizes, and slap a 'deep cycle' sticker on them, does not mean they achieve the same quality as a 6v GC battery in deep cycle service. Many will disagree with this, and they will be those who want to believe their purchase was wise, and want others to confirm this.
2 group 31 12v batteries in parallel for 230AH, even the best which is likely the trojan scs 225, will never outlive a pair of 6v GC batteries all factors being equal.
The only time 2 flooded 31 batteries would be superior to 2 t-105's is under heavy inverter loads. 12v batteries can hold high voltage under higher discharge currents, and should in theory power a higher load for longer before the low voltage alarm on the inverter starts screaming for mercy and shuts off the inverter.
But, so much more effort, and time would be expended into trying to return the group 31s to full charge every day, compared to the t-105's, that it might just be easier to idle the engine for a minute or two when powering those huge inverter loads when that potato simply needs to be microwaved.
Flooded batteries are great, because a Hydrometer can be used to determine when the batteries are indeed fully charged. So many people think voltage is like a gas gauge, that 12.8v means a healthy fully charged battery. That a blinking green light =100% charged
If you believe this, I got a group 31 battery for you, and a deed to the Brooklyn bridge. Only slightly used, practically like new. Excellent price just for you, As is.
But, batteries are only rented. You working for your batteries or are they working for you?
I work my batteries, and I work to observe how they behave during that work, because it interests me.
Attaining Ideal battery longevity is not for everybody.
Knowing what Ideal is, well, that should be noted, and a line drawn in the sand somewhere as to how far one is willing to go towards it.
One can argue where that line in the sand needs to be drawn, if they even realizing that is what they are arguing over.
It is an argument I will avoid. I'll provide 'ideal' to the best of my knowledge.
Even if a battery is never discharged at all, never cycled, and kept on a maintainer, at 3 years of age, its capacity has degraded. Whether this lost capacity can be noticed is another matter. Without the tools or the temperament to notice capacity loss, it certainly cannot.
I gave up on grid powered automatic smart chargers a while ago, I use an adjustable voltage power supply capable of 40 amps at any voltage between 13.12 and 19.23v. A voltmeter, an Ammeter, an Amp hour counter and/or a Hydrometer tell me when to turn the voltage down or unplug the power supply.
Trusting Flashing green lights, well you are as well off trusting your local elected representative, who bought the election victory with empty promises.
So This TV was plugged in for a few weeks, basically just abusing my old battery which I removed from my van months ago as specific gravity refused to rise on some cells and the battery was heating excessively under mild charging currents.
My power supply just got a few additional heatsinks epoxied to the casing adjacent to the transistors (heat makers) yesterday with some epoxy formulated for maximum thermal transfer, and I set it to 14.7v and plugged in the power supply to the old battery. 30 initial amps tapered to the mid 10's pretty quickly and voltage rose quickly to 14.4v.
The battery was not really discharged much obviously and is by no means healthy.
But how could I possible test the efficacy of my new heatsinks at a Peasley 10- 20 amps!! How could they ever roast a Locust? I hate undercooked locust.
So I spin my potentiometer, and crank up the voltage. At about 17.4 abusive volts, the battery is taking 40 amps, the limit of the power supply(meanwell rsp-500-15). The battery starts gurgling and fizzing, and I am overwhelmed by the sulfur stink of offgassing at these abusive voltages. Reduce voltage to 14.7v, and amps taper to ~ 8, and I cannot smell it anymore, 18 inches under my nose, but I can still hear the occasional gurgle.
It occurs to me that I only ever smelled this battery charge, when it was charging at those particularly high voltages (14.8 to 16v) that this specific battery required to reach full charge, and the equalization voltages I needed to apply (16v) every 2 to 3 weeks or so to keep the battery viable.
These 12v 'deep cycle' batteries require these rather extreme voltages applied for rather extreme durations in order for them to attain full charge and perform adequately, for an acceptable number of cycles in the 500 range, when discharged to ~50% nightly and recharged properly and promptly..
However, the 6v GC batteries were designed specifically for deep cycling, they are not a car jar starting battery with deep cycleish plates forced inside, and a deep cycle $ticker slapped on the case, but a battery optimized around deep cycling and resistance to cumulative back to back deep discharges from the get go. As such the effort required to maximize the specific gravity, is less, the offgassing, less as well. Electrons turned into heat, less.
I've not personally cycled 6v GC batteries every night, but everything I've read on them by people who can actually read and measure and observe and questions their behavior, state that they are easier to fully charge and can recover from abuse like no 12v battery can.
I believe that charging them at 14.8v or below would make them difficult to smell in the 85% o 100% charged range, much more difficult than 12v marine or other 12v quasi deep cycle batteries at the same states of charge and if pushed to the area required to which 12v batteries can attain a true 100% State of charge
Since they do not offgass when discharging under normal light house loads, much of the offgassing fear can be negated with adequate daytime ventilation when solar has them 'up there'.
With 12v batteries, and my former stinky group31 battery is a top quality 12v 'deep cycle', they simply need to be pushed to the sickeningly sweet smelly state where they offgass, and if they are not pushed there will only perform to 65% compared to as if they were pushed to the stinky stage of 100% every cycle.
Technically, AGM batteries need to be vented as well. No AGM manufacturer will say these are perfectly safe to install and use in a completely sealed container. They will only offgas if overcharged, and the amount they actually release when they do so would be a fraction of a 12v 'deep cycle' or 6v flooded GC battery.
If one is going to have plenty of ventilation in the 85% to 100% charging stages, then only those with super sensitive sniffers will likely realize the batteries are offgassing, and perhaps only if in an enclosed space with no ventilation.
No one in good conscience can say to not worry about offgassing at all, that it can be disregarded as a factor whatsoever. For any flooded battery to fully recharge, offgassing is a requirement, but if that fully recharging stage occurs when the window are open or the vehicle unattended and unventilated, then, well it can be overlooked, perhaps.
I personally really dislike the smell of a battery charging at the 90%+ plus range. I will not have a flooded battery in My Van's living space again, except temporarily.
I do not feel I have the most sensitive sniffer, but I can smell a drink on someone's breathe 6 hours after their last, and I can easily smell an off gassing battery, and I do not like it, and I will avoid it.
Personally I will not regularly inhabit the same space as a charging battery that is charging in the 85%/ 90% to 100%range, but my personal distaste for this might carry too much weight on this forum and cause people to go through extreme efforts to ventilate their batteries to the exterior, Or they might choose AGM instead.
That AGM choice basically requires that one has even more powerful charging sources to satisfy the AGM peculiarities, as they are not as easy to keep them happy, and they cost more for that privilege of expending more effort in properly charging them to 100% ASAP as often as possible. AGM's are a great battery, but they are not mr or mrs happy go lucky. Their Price tag does not make them immune to chronic undercharging, In fact the flooded battery is likely more resistant to chronic undercharging and half the price to boot.
Properly ventilating a charging flooded battery is wise.
Very Very few 12v batteries, even those made solely as deep cycle batteries, can perform as well as a 6v Golf cart battery in deep cycle usage
The 12v Deep cycle battery, pretty much does not exist, not if it is compared to a 6v golf cart battery in the same exact usage.
With AGMs there is crossover, but with flooded batteries, GC batteries cannot be beat, not price wise, capacity wise, or resistance to abuse wise, not at this point in time.
Some 12v Batteries do cross the line into true deep cycle construction. Generally they are a taller battery, A 'scrubber' or industrial battery, and are larger and heavier than any 12v battery you will see in an Autoparts store or Wally world, and cost significantly more too. if treated right they will last significantly longer, and earn their extra price, but of one does not bother and does not care, then one is better off abusing the cheapest marine battery they can find. Just don't get all indignant when it fails to meet one's needs at an early age.
My next flooded deep cycle battery will be the Trojan T-1275. It is a 12v 150AH battery. I Do not need 150AH of capacity, much less the 232 of a pair T-105's in series. 130AH is more than enough in my uses.
But the t-1275 has twice the expected cycle life of the Trojan SCS 225, which is a group 31 'deep cycle' battery, and likely the best 'true' 12v Deep Cycle group 31 sold, in the normal group 24/27/29/31 sizes
My Future T-1275 will go under the hood of My Dodge van, but I need to lower the battery tray to accept its greater height, and I might run into some clearance issues regarding the headlamp socket.
The T-1275 costs the same as the SCS 225 from the closest vendor. ~20 More lbs of lead, 20 more AH capacity, 2x the expected cycle life, and easier to fully charge for the same price.
Sold.
I could not fit a pair of 6v GC batteries under my floor( which can fit two group 27), or in my engine compartment, but if i could, and even though I do not need 232 AH pf total house battery capacity, I would certainly own a pair of GC batteries. Even if my 198 watts of solar is too little for 232 AH of GC batteries, Even if I would never need 116AH of depletion, A pair ot T-105's would outlive any other battery's in the same usage.
12v batteries might be appealing because it seems simpler, but a 12v flooded battery, in deep cycle service, cannot ever be as durable as a pair of 6v Golfcart batteries in series. It is not a capacity issue or a lesser state of discharge issue, it is the fact that GC batteries were designed for Deep cycling originally. group 24/27/29/31 are all BCI group sizes originally designed as Starting batteries. Just because they try and stuff deep cycle plates into these sizes, and slap a 'deep cycle' sticker on them, does not mean they achieve the same quality as a 6v GC battery in deep cycle service. Many will disagree with this, and they will be those who want to believe their purchase was wise, and want others to confirm this.
2 group 31 12v batteries in parallel for 230AH, even the best which is likely the trojan scs 225, will never outlive a pair of 6v GC batteries all factors being equal.
The only time 2 flooded 31 batteries would be superior to 2 t-105's is under heavy inverter loads. 12v batteries can hold high voltage under higher discharge currents, and should in theory power a higher load for longer before the low voltage alarm on the inverter starts screaming for mercy and shuts off the inverter.
But, so much more effort, and time would be expended into trying to return the group 31s to full charge every day, compared to the t-105's, that it might just be easier to idle the engine for a minute or two when powering those huge inverter loads when that potato simply needs to be microwaved.
Flooded batteries are great, because a Hydrometer can be used to determine when the batteries are indeed fully charged. So many people think voltage is like a gas gauge, that 12.8v means a healthy fully charged battery. That a blinking green light =100% charged
If you believe this, I got a group 31 battery for you, and a deed to the Brooklyn bridge. Only slightly used, practically like new. Excellent price just for you, As is.
But, batteries are only rented. You working for your batteries or are they working for you?
I work my batteries, and I work to observe how they behave during that work, because it interests me.
Attaining Ideal battery longevity is not for everybody.
Knowing what Ideal is, well, that should be noted, and a line drawn in the sand somewhere as to how far one is willing to go towards it.
One can argue where that line in the sand needs to be drawn, if they even realizing that is what they are arguing over.
It is an argument I will avoid. I'll provide 'ideal' to the best of my knowledge.
Sabatical
Well-known member
Thank you SternWake for that well detailed explanation. It shows that you are really in tune with what's going on in your system and I for one really appreciate your willingness to share the knowledge.
LeeRevell
Well-known member
I for one have been copying Sternwake's detailed posts into a Word document. It is running many pages. Good stuff!
Sabatical
Well-known member
I spent some time last year reading "handy bob's" solar page elsewhere on the interweb. Wow that was alot of info. but a great read.
