Charging solar batteries with "shore" power as well?

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donamh

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Hey all,

I've been looking at ways to charge the batteries in instances of low light or at a campground in the woods covered by trees. I found this marine battery charger and figured I'd turn to you all.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003JSHQW0/

If I hook up this to the batteries as well still being attached to the solar charge controller, would I have any issues? I'd like to be able to hook up to a normal outlet to charge batteries when/if needed and this seems to be the solution, but I have no experience there.

Thanks for the advice and info in advance!
 
first off, what type of battery(AH)? an how depleted do you think it will get? that is a real small charger. 10A is just a little more then a trickle charger, not good for bringing a large depleted battery back. highdesertranger
 
I don't believe that NOCO product would interfere with the charge controller simply because it's so weak...best I could find is it tops out at 13 volts. This is basically a trickle maintenance charger, designed to be left doing its thing for a week in between boat usage...not something that will help you in what you're wanting it to do.

I could be mistaken, but that's what I took from a quick scroll through that link...
 
highdesertranger said:
first off,  what type of battery(AH)? an how depleted do you think it will get?  that is a real small charger.  10A is just a little more then a trickle charger,  not good for bringing a large depleted battery back.  highdesertranger

I have a 12v 110AH deep cycle battery. I had figured that if I'm at a campground or somewhere where I can park with an extension cord, I could try to keep the battery charging with this when the sun isn't out. I don't ever expect to deplete the batteries. Maybe I need something else.
 
you always deplete the batteries, that is why you have them and that's why you need to recharge them. you need a bigger/better charger if you need one at all. how much solar are you running? highdesertranger
 
donamh, the device in a factory RV that performs these duties is called a converter.  When plugged into shore power it provides 12v and charges the batteries.  Most of the OEM ones are crappy but there are apparently good ones out there (example search, check reviews and search on this forum)

I don't think 10a is useless but I do think that particular charger has marine features that are needlessly expensive for non-marine applications. 

Note to onlookers:  I saw a YT video where a fellow made an interesting shore power charger.  He wanted granular control of the charging so he got a hefty 110v-powered 24v power supply off ebay and fed that to a morningstart sunsaver mppt charge controller.  That sunsaver model is simple but configurable through the comm port.  I assume some good converters are also configurable by DIP switch or comms but I haven't looked at it.
 
Charge rate and charge stages are important for a good lead acid battery charger.  The Charge rate is determined by your battery bank capacity (and your future bank capacity, if upgrades are likely).  

Charge rate is commonly expressed as C/x, so a 10 A charger hooked to a 110AH battery would be 110 ÷ 10 = x, making the charge rate C/11.  This is a low charge rate, where a trickle charge or gel cell charger might be even lower at C/20, and a nice fast bulk charge might be C/3.  C/3 is often on the high end of deep cycle chargers, it causes heating and some extra off gassing in many cells, especially as they age - which increases maintenance requirements as far as how often you need to add water.  The C/x notation is also helpful in estimating how fast the bulk charge can charge a healthy battery to 80% charged from empty - A C/3 charger could get you there in roughly 3 hours, and a C/5 rate would be about 5 hours.  C/5 is recommended by many golf cart battery manufacturers, sometimes this is expressed in data sheets as "20% of C" charge rate.

For a 110AH battery, the amperage for a C/5 charge would be 110 ÷ 5 = 22A.  If you plan to upgrade to a larger bank, like two 225AH golf cart (T105) batteries, the ideal would be a 45A charger.  This size charger on your current battery would be a little large, at C/2.4 - so you might want to go with a middle sized charger in the 30-40 amp range to split the difference if you plan to keep your existing battery for awhile.

Charge stages are also important.  They are usually called bulk, absorption, float, and equalize.  In normal circumstances you need the first 3 each time you charge the battery.  Equalize is a special maintenance charge where you "overcharge" the battery for 2-6 hours after a full 3 stage normal charge - this purposefully off-gasses the battery which helps balance the specific gravity in each cell, as well as mixing up the electrolyte with the vigorous bubbling to prevent stratification.


Northern Wind and Sun sells IOTA brand chargers, they are normal "dumb" chargers (like most RV converters) that you can plug a module into to make them a "smart" 4 stage charger.  These chargers have a few advantages as they are "cheap" for a good charger and well regarded in off-grid and marine communities.  A 30 Amp IOTA and the AmpLife1 smart charger plug-in is only about $10 more expensive than the one you linked on Amazon, and a 45 amp setup would be about only $20 more than the Amazon thing.  Xantrex, Victron, and others also make some really nice smart chargers but they tend to be quite a bit more expensive.

User SternWake has a lot of good posts on this sort of thing on this forum for more info if you do a search.
 
I forgot to address what you asked about hooking the solar controller and the charger up at the same time - this is 100% OK. The only reason you might want to turn off the solar controller is if you want to keep the charge rate down if you have a slightly too-large charger and are running a small(er) battery. You would have everything fused close to the battery terminals like normal, just in case of equipment failure or damaged wire, but this is just normal practice. No reputable UL-listed plug-in charger or solar controller will be damaged or cause any abnormalities in this scenario.
 
First, anything that is designed for a marine application will cost more, because it needs to work in a wet, salty environment. All you need is an automotive charger -- one that lets you select the type of battery you're charging or does that automatically. I got one at AutoZone for about $35. It has worked fine.

Unless you have a very primitive charge controller, it senses the battery's state of charge and adjusts how much energy it sends to the battery. So if a charger is attached, the solar controller will read that energy and dial itself down, or off. The same is the case if you've wired the house battery to charge via the vehicle's charging system.
 
Going to pick a couple nits here, sorry.  Let the eye rolling begin.


What 110Ah battery does the OP have?  There is no actual deep cycle flooded 12v battery, despite the stickers and marketing saying so.  Most every flooded 12v battery is a hybrid/ dual purpose battery and will last less than half the total amount of cycles as a true deep cycle battery like the trojan t-1275 which is the only realistically attainable 12v flooded battery.

Please read this link:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

No need to scrap a hybrid battery and pursue a real deep cycle battery after reading the link above, but know that a sticker with deep cycle boldly printed on it,  does not mean it is.  Beware of marketing, always, as it is, more often than not, extremely dishonest, and marketing a hybrid 12v battery as a deep cycle battery is dishonest in my opinion and does nothing but frustrate the rob the end user.

  A starting battery too can be deep cycled, it just wont last very long in that application.  The hybrid 12v battery is much much closer to a starting battery than a deep cycle battery in  the internal design of the plates.

With AGM batteries there is the possibility that they are designed as a deep cycle battery, but many, like the Deka Intimidator series (often relabelled, sold as energizer or duracell at sams club and costco), which is marketed as having the ability to deep cycle, is rated, according to Mainesail( the battery Guru) , for only 350 deep cycles to 50% where as Lifeline AGM is rated to 1000 cycles at 50% discharges.  Yes the Lifeline costs twice as much and is harder to find a retailer, but if treated right, will last 3x as many deep cycles.  Bargain hunters beware.  Half price but 1/3 the lifespan is no bargain.

Moving on, No charging source 'senses' the battery state of charge and then decides how much current to apply.  No charging source can magically go into a battery and see its condition or state of charge.  It can see battery voltage, and if no charging source has been on the battery or any loads on the battery for a few hours, this voltage can be related to state of charge.

But rarely is resting voltage actually relevant in full time van dwelling when the battery is almost always being charged or discharged.  Voltage can be very misleading, and is NOT like a fuel level indicator, unless the battery has NOT seen charging or discharging sources for many many hours, and  only if the battery user already has previously established what that particular battery's fully charged voltage is.
 (  Resting full charge voltage can range  anywhere from 12.62v to 13.16v, depending on the specific battery.)

Automatic chargers sense voltage and it has a program to follow. Apply max amperage output until voltage reads 14.x volts, hold for X amount of time, then revert to a lower float voltage. This is the three stages, and simply 3 different voltage levels.  I know many chargers now are marketed as having 8 stages which claim to do everything but orally copulate with the user, but again marketing/lying/dishonesty abounds. 
   Most every charging source sold as automatic will not actually have the battery at full charge when it first flashes the green full charge light.  'Automatic' in the case of battery chargers means only that it is designed not to overcharge, and that undercharging is a lawyerly safe guarantee.   Automatic charger means automatic undercharger in a sexy marketable case with many soothing lights  possibly with buttons.  Humans love buttons and the appearance of choice.

When there are several charging sources applied at the same time, they can all work together when the battery is discharged below ~80% to get the battery upto that 14.x volt range, but then the charging source with the lower maximum voltage setpoint will drop out as the higher voltage charger carries on.  No need to do anything, at this point only one charging source is adequate as the battery cannot accept the current from two chargers in most instances anyway. The charging soure which drops out will not be damaged by the other charging source continuing on.

 Do not fear multiple charging sources on the battery at the same time.

For a  hard working ( regularly deeply cycled) 110Ah capacity flooded battery I would want no less than a 20 amp plug in charger.

For a hard working 110AH AGM battery I would want no less than a 30 amp charger.

For a battery never or rarely discharged below 80% state of charge, it does not much matter either way.

For a van dweller who has the occasional access to grid power to bring their battery(s) to full, the automatic chargers will likely get confused in the presence of the regular DC loads, like a cycling compressor fridge.  When 85% charged, they will see that it requires ~8 amps to hold the 110Ah battery 14.4v, but then the fridge cycles on and then it requires 11.4 amps to hold 14.4v, then the fridge cycles off and it again requires 8 amps to hold 14.4v.

This makes the regular smart charger think something is wrong with the battery and it will shut itself off.  If a Human is unaware of the charger shutting itself off, and had paid 35$ to camp in a place where they had electrical hookups just so they could top off their abused battery, well they just wasted 35$.

An Rv converter is designed to both 3 stage charge batteries WHILE still powering the RV's DC loads.  They do not come in a sexy casing, nor come with alligator clamps but they do work, and they can be bought in various amperage levels.
The Iota DLS-30 ( 30 amps) would be a pretty good choice for a single 110Ah flooded or AGM battery.

If one has more battery capacity, my opinion is the PD9245-14.8 ( 45 amps max)  is a better converter as one can force the charger into one of 3 voltage settings, overriding the automatic charge algorithm.  These can be had in 55 60 and 70 amp versions sold as PD92XX-14.8, where XX is the max amperage.

 45 amps is a lot for a single 110AH flooded battery, Not ideal, but also not instant death.

Keep in mind that most alternators are capable of initially delivering over 100 amps to a well depleted battery, even as wired from the ford factory, or whatever.  Most every vehicle that is jump started will have the alternator supplying a very high charge rate to the depleted battery, and will do so for a significant period of time, and this does not kill the battery instantly.  The battery is also underhood( hot) and high charge rates also heat the battery surprisingly quickly, making it even hotter, and heat really is not good for batteries, but a jumpstart on a hot day and then driving through the summertime desert in a traffic jam, is still not an instant battery killer.  Not good for it but not instant death.  The Sky is not falling.  Simply be aware it is not ideal.  High charge rates and high battery temperatures should be avoided if possible.

Many people (not necessarily on this forum) fear a high charge rate unnecessarily, and love to recommend the slow trickle charge, and many will say put a trickle charger on overnight, completely unaware that a trickle charger that 2 amps for 12 hours is nowhere near enough to recharge a 110Ah battery depleted to 50%.  in general if you see the recommendation to trickle charge a battery, humor the person speaking, but ignore their advice, unless one can plug in for a week.  A slow recharge to full is indeed best for the healthy but discharged battery, if one has the time to do so.  Almost never the case in Van or Rv dwelling.  In case of an Unhealthy  depleted battery, higher initial amperage charge rates will help to desulfate the battery better than a trickle charge applied for a week.

The Van dweller usually has only a few hours to plug in, and chargers capable of high  charge rates are much much more effective and will allow better battery longevity.  If one has a week to recharge, the trickle charger that seeks 14.4v+ is then 'just fine', but only then.

While  many  vehicle starting batteries fail soon after the vehicle is jump started, the fact is that most batteries were nearly done for and that minor loads were enough to deplete the capacity compromised battery to the point it required a jumpstart.  The high amperage delivered by the alternator afterwards did not kill it,  usually they had outlived their useful lifespan when the jumpstart  was required and replacement would have been required soon, jumpstart or not.

    It is more likely that when  battery replacement after jumpstarting is required, the cause is the belief, held by 99.5% of the general public, is that the alternator is some all powerful, physics defying source of free energy than can somehow early instantaneously and magically fully charge a battery.

Reality is that while cool alternators spinning fast, have the potential to generate huge amperage numbers, is that the battery can only accept so much, and the vehicle's voltage regulator is designed to keep a nearly fully charged engine battery, somewhere near fully charged.  It was never intended to properly charge additional depleted batteries tacked onto the end of the circuit.

So while a depleted battery might require 45 amps to be brought to and held at 14.5v,.... when the vehicle's voltage regulator decides that 13.7v is just fine and safe and lawyerly, the depleted battery might only need 8 amps to be held at 13.7 compared to the 45 amps needed to hold it at 14.5v.

You have an hour to drive to the next stop and need to work on the laptop for 6 hours, do you want 8 amps flowing into that depleted house battery, or 45amps?  Sadly, one does not have the option of choosing.  One is at the mercy of the vehicles voltage regulator decisions and they were programmed with a fully charged starting battery in mind.

AND even more importantly, say the vehicles voltage regulator decides to hold 14.7v( which it will not).  Even then in this fairytale unicorn world, the battery would still require a minimum of 3.5 hours of driving to get from 80% charged to 100% charged.

There is simply no way to decrease the time it takes to reach full charge in the 80 to 100% charged range.  A higher voltage 'could' do it, but not safely, and not reduce time all that much anyway.  Rarely is it safe to bring a 12v lead acid battery above 14.8v, and when doing so the battery should be monitored for excessive heating.

So use any and all charging sources to get the battery to as high a state of charge as possible whenever possible.  NO charging source is ideal, but SOOOO many of the well marketed smart chargers are NOT good for a regularly deep cycled battery, especially when DC loads are still present while plugged in and charging.

The RV converter is far superior in such instances where DC loads are still present, but one has to supply their own cables from converter to battery.  hint, place converter close to but not in same compartment as flooded battery and use thick copper between the two for best performance.

Most Automatic chargers are marketed towards occasional garage use, and used on starting batteries.  Those of us deeply cycling batteries daily, can do much much better than Noco or Ctek or Stanley or Schumacher, or any of the easily obtained battery chargers sold in retail stores in super shiny boxes that a team of overpaid marketers( lying *******s) have decided will catch your eye better than the product next to it

For occassional use these can be OK, and if one already owns such a charger, by all means employ it, Just be sure to check on it to make sure it did not get confused by DC loads still on the battery and shut itself off.  Also when it first flashes the full charge indicator green light, practice your indignant 'Harrumph'. Unplug charger,  Apply larger loads to reduce battery voltage to under 12.8v, and then restart charger.  Lather rinse repeat, as most Automatic smart chargers quit in the 92 to 95% charged range, and achieving 100% charged should be the goal whenever one has access to grid power as 100% recharges are what the battery craves.

Later rinse repeating of restarting the automatic 'smart' charger after removing surface charge voltage is a method to trick the charger into accomplishing that 100% state of charge, and it might require a dozen restarts of the Automatic charger to trick it into performing the task which for which it was bought.

If one wants to upgrade their plug in charging source, then the RV converters from Iota and Progressive Dynamics will vastly outperform the regular automatic charger suspects.

But even these RV converters are not Ideal rechargers. In general they also will drop out of absorption voltage too soon, but if plugging in overnight this is not an issue. But if powering a generator simply to recharge batteries, this premature ending of absorption voltage is a waste of time gas and silence.

Those running a generator to recharge batteries can benefit greatly from a charging source that is forced to seek and hold a higher voltage the WHOLE time the generator is running.

My plug in charger is a 40 amp adjustable voltage switching power supply, and it will outperform any other 40 amps or 50 amp charging source, but it is NOT automatic. I have to be there to either shut it off, or reduce voltage once the battery has achieved full charge.
This power supply was 120$ taxed and delivered, but I have modified it with more ventilation and heatsinking and a finger twist voltage selection dial along with a wattmeter on the output  so I can see how much it is delivering.  It is also Ugly, and has no blinking lights.

Thread on it here for those interested:
https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-My-newest-electrical-toy

One does not have to seek ideal battery recharging, but one should have a general Idea what it consists of, and then decide how far they are willing to go towards it.  It can be less stressful and perhaps less expensive to simply plan on replacing batteries more frequently.  When one gets sick of this, then they can decide whether to continue on doing the same thing, or to upgrade to recharge better via better methods  for longer battery life and a more reliable system.

At least Lead acid batteries are recycled well, but it still requires a lot of energy to recycle the Lead in a battery.
 
Ok this is probably getting to be way more information than anyone really wants by now, but why not keep going, eh? ....

Those automotive smart chargers do indeed suck if you want to top off a battery that is already mostly full, or if your solar is keeping the voltage up above the "full" level the smart charger sees when you first hook it up - so you have to bleed some juice to trick it, not so smart after all, eh?

Both the Iota and these Progressive Dynamics things are not really battery chargers, but more like power supplies that act kind of like a battery charger. You can do cool stuff with both of them, like install a AmpLife, IQ4, or Charge Wizard accessory doo-dad (depending on the brand/model) that will give you a staged charging algorithm, which is cool to add some life to the battery bank and is a "set and forget" way to maintain the battery. Those doo-dads just monitor a voltage pin on and either short or open a couple other pins to do primitive voltage adjustment on the power supply. The Progressive Dynamics sells a little remote that lets you cycle manually through 3 set points, and Iota you just hook a switch to a telephone jack for 2 different set points (trimpot-adjustable) without buying their fancier doo-dad add-on.

The last thing to consider is generators. If you plan to charge off a generator, in particular a small inverter generator, these RV converters suck. They are almost never power factor corrected, one I could find that was, was a newer Iota 24 volt-only model. Power Factor Correction (PFC) makes sure that the apparent and real load on a sine wave generator are in sync. For instance, a RV converter that puts out 45A @ 13.6V DC will use somewhere in the ballpark of 700 watts of real (watts) AC power. A non PFC power supply usually has a power factor of 0.5 - 0.6, which makes the apparent power (volt-amps) needed about double that figure. This increases the size of the generator needed due to the out-of-sync reactive power component of the load. This is bad news if you want to use a little 1000 watt genny. One more thing to think about, yay!
 
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