Batteries-Lead Acid Wet Cell or AGM and what about L16s? Help!

Laughing Richard · May 21, 2013

I'm at a crossroads between Lead acid wet cell and AGM batteries. I was ready to order 4 Trojan L16H 6Volt 435 amp hr @ 20 hour rate and they would have fit nicely into a space approx. 24"x 15". But then someone told me that L16's are not meant for RV's. I can't tell you his reasoning on that as I never got it. He said that I'd be better off with Golf Cart batteries and only get 4 of them as with 6 he had many problems.??? Maybe balancing the batteries? To get the same amp hours I think I'd have to purchase 8 of them. That takes up a bit more space but doable. Has anyone here ever used the L16H in their RV/Van or have any opinion on them? I've looked at the AGM batteries Nice in the fact that they need little to no maintenance and they charge quicker. And they wouldn't leak acid on me if I flipped the van over.  (not planning on that!) But the price for the same amount of amp hrs is about double. Anyone have a battery preference from either the AGM or wet cell? Thanks, Richard

James AKA Lynx · May 21, 2013

Your choice. Most people run their batteries down to far and do not recharge them fully and let rest before using. This wears out batteries much quicker. So, the regular car battery is really bad at this. If the voltage drops below 11 volts the battery is almost for sure gone. A deep cycle/marine type will recover better. Your golf cart batteries are even better still. Wet cells give off gas and you should have a vented compartment for them. Gel cells and dry cells do not give off gas. Different charging for each type of battery. It is best not to mix batteries in the same system. Like - if you are using your engine to charge batteries then all should be the same. That usually means deep cycle wet cell. IF your charging system cannot take gel cell do not put them in, they will not last. You need good battery maintenance for good battery life. That includes not running them down and charging until full and letting them rest for a while (if you can) James AKA Lynx

Laughing Richard · May 21, 2013

Thanks James AKA Lynx, I have a pretty good idea after all my research on how to treat the batteries. I don't plan to use more than 25% max before recharging them to full and will rely heavily on my solar panels to do that job as opposed to the alternator. I'll be using either four 215 watt or three 315 watt panels with either a Tristar MPPT 60 amp or a Midnite classic 150 MPPT Controller. I don't want to have a generator so I'm hoping that this system will be enough to handle my needs for up to 3 or 4 days without any sun and I'm pretty sure it will. Either type of battery that I go with AGM or wet cell will be enclosed in a well ventilated box with low intake and high exhaust vented to the outside of the van. I guess my main question at the moment would be why would the L16s not be feasible for an RV/Van? Has anyone ever used the L16 type of battery in their vehicle? The AGMs don't seem to have any downsides to them except for the cost unless someone could point out any negatives about them?. Also what is the best type of battery terminal style to look for? Thank you Richard

Zil · May 21, 2013

The L16 are fine deep cycle batteries. They are heavy. This is because they are high amp hour batteries. They are used in solar power applications. They are heavy.

highdesertranger · May 21, 2013

did zil say they are heavy,  I mean really heavy.  if it were me I would get the t 105's either 2 or 4.  what are you trying to do with your battery storage?  how many ah/day?  wet cells are your best bang for your buck.  highdesertranger

Laughing Richard · May 21, 2013

Thanks highdesertranger, The T 105's are nice and light but not enough storage for me. I would need 6 to 8 of them to get the 800 to 900 amp hrs that I'm looking for and a lot of fiddling to get the batteries all balanced. I'd rather go with a more compact and heavier battery like the L16H's at 435 amp hrs at 121 lbs or the Lifeline GPL8DL AGM 12 V 255 amp hrs at 162 lbs (now those might be heavy but still doable). I want to be able to park in a tunnel or under ground for 4 or 5 days and still only be at 50% discharge on the batteries. And I don't want to have a generator. I know the wet cells are the best bang for the buck and was going to order them when I hit this warning that "L16's are not meant for RVs or Vans" so that's why I came to the forum to ask why they're not meant for RVs or vans and in the meantime it got me thinking about AGM batteries. Originally I wasn't even giving them much thought because of the double price but now I'm at a cross roads and leaning. Anyone here ever used the L16s or have any knowledge why they shouldn't be used in RVs/Vans? Thank you, Richard

wrcsixeight · May 22, 2013

I am not sure why L-16's would perform any different in a Van as opposed to T 105's, but here is a speculation.  L16's are very tall.  The plates in the cells are thus very tall and might, in an automotive application, develop too much momentum over bumps, around turns, hard braking and acelleration, and the cell plates/grids might break down not from usual abuse of deep discharges  followed by inadequate recharges, but from actual friction against each other inside the individual cells.  This is a guess, and I am not saying it is true. Since Golf Cart batteries obviously are going to see these types of movements/ physical stresses, perhaps the cell dimensions for GC batts were calculated to the maximum size, where as the taller L-16 batteries are more designed for non motive applications, and as big as one strong person can reasonably handle. I do know of one guy with L-16's in a Class A, but the physical stresses of a Class A are much less than what can be done in a Class B Van. I'm not really sold on the benefits of AGM.  Most people can never take advantage of the theoretical faster recharges under 80%, and the last 20% can not be crammed in much faster either from what I've read from other's experiences with them.  I like being able to stick a hydrometer in my flooded batteries and see how close the solar or other charging sources is returning the Specific gravity to the levels I recorded when they were new. I wouldn't get a huge number of amp hours and then plan on never using more than 25% of them.  Plan to use 50%.  You will ultimately spend less on batteries and less time trying to force that last 20% into them when planning on cycling them 50%.  Spend the extra on more solar. Having the extra capacity, just to have it, can be considered overkill.  I had 230 A/h total when the batteries were new.  I am at about 40% of that original capacity, and it is more than I need.  When my batteries are due for replacement, I'll likely downsize my capacity, rather than carry around an extra 62 pound paperweight.

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

Thank you wrcsixeight, Now to me that makes a lot of sense about the L16's and why they would be better in a stationary position as opposed to being in a van. In my battery research I've come across your posts on several occasions and as far as I'm concerned you're the battery guru here. So I appreciate your advice here and you've helped me to make a decision as to going with the wet cell over the AGM and to use less amp hours on the batteries and more of the solar panels. Thanks again wrcsixeight and to everyone else Richard

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

wrcsixeight, Sorry I forgot to ask you which type of battery terminals are best to get for batteries used in RV's/Vans for solar? Here are just a few that I found:<img style="border: 0;" rel="lightbox" src="http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/media/product-images/Batteries/Trojan/terminal-types.gif" class="bbc_img">

wrcsixeight · May 22, 2013

I like the number 6 terminals as you have both options.  Once, when my engine battery failed, I was able to take a house marine battery with the dual terminals and put it in the engine compartment without modification, and then later I took out this battery and put it in my friend's truck so he could drive to an AP store. The post top for automotive batteries is good for high loads like a starter due to the massive surface area, compared to just a ring terminal .  While some might briefly load a battery with a big inverter,  the ring terminals for studs are more than sufficient for most RV type loads. But for 6v batteries, no real reason for the post terminals if you are designing a system from scratch that will not assist in engine starting.

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

Thank you, wrcsixeight Richard

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

wrcsixeight, In your opinion which battery manufacturer do you like? I've been looking at Trojan and Crown for Golf cart battery size. Crown is less expensive than Trojan. Are there others that are good? Richard

wrcsixeight · May 22, 2013

If I were looking for GC batteries, I'd probably get Sam's Club or Costco GC batteries. I don't believe the price premium you pay for Crown or trojan yields much better performance or longevity, but I have no personal experience in this matter.  I own Crown 12 volt Group 27's. This is my second set.  I killed the first at 2 years by forgetting to lower my solar setpoints when I flew to the other side of the country for a month, and let the electrolyte levels get too low.  This second set last summer also got a bit low but are still giving good service  even with their prematurely reduced capacity. What kind of battery guru lets their batteries plates get exposed?  Not a good one.  Ha Trojans have a great reputation, but more recent reports from some users on other forums suggest they might have jumped on the cost cutting/ maximum profit bandwagon.  Crown has a couple PDF's out there claiming how they are superior to the purple hue'd competition. <a href="http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/wind-sun/Crown-skindeep.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/wind-sun/Crown-skindeep.pdf</a> My judgement for crowns was likely swayed by AZ wind and Sun. <a href="http://www.solar-electric.com/crdecyinba1.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.solar-electric.com/crdecyinba1.html </a>I think the true Mac Daddy deep cycle battery is made by Rolls Surrette and their price might indicate the plates are made from gold instead of lead. The first set of batteries should be viewed as a learner set of batteries.  Most newbies will kill batteries whether top dollar or econobrand special.  Much more painful to destroy top dollar batteries while you learn how much you can ask from them and how much your system is able to replenish to keep them healthiest Interstate 6v GC batteries are made by US battery.

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

Well one thing I have noticed is that Crown batteries offers a "2 years free replacement" whereas Trojan only offers "<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument></xml><![endif]-->Warranty: 1 year". And if warranty is any indication " Rolls Surrette stands behind their batteries with some of the longest warranties in the industry, up to 10 years on certain models" I'd have to agree with you on them being made of gold. I need to revisit the Interstate to see what they have. I've lived off grid in Hawaii with solar so have learned from those batteries how to treat them. (they were Trojan L16s so had to equalize them a lot) Thanks for the heads up on " I killed the first at 2 years by forgetting to lower my solar setpoints when I flew to the other side of the country for a month, and let the electrolyte levels get too low." as I wouldn't have thought to lower it. Thanks again for all your information, Richard

leftcoastadv · May 22, 2013

I went with the GC2's from Sam's Club. 6 of them at 12 volts, 620 amp hours. Anything more than that and I would step to 24 volts. More than this and it gets tough to balance them. In my opinion. This is my first battery setup and I figured I'd probably ruin them before too long so I did not want to spend a ton of money on agm's or name brand wet cells.  2 years later and they are still going strong. I try to only discharge them to about 70-75% and recharge fully about every 5 days. I check the water level and specific gravity about once a month.  When off grid I'm using a Honda eu2k genny with a 45 amp (a bit small) charge wizard converter and a trimetric meter. Again in my opinion the trimetric meter is an absolute must.  My next move is solar. Last week I visited with the guys at AZ wind and sun in Flagstaff and got dialed in on what I need for solar. The wind and sun message board has also been a ton of help over the years.

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

leftcoastadv, That's something I need to understand better, the balancing of the batteries. I can see how you would hook up four 6 volts in series parallel to get your 12 volts and double the amps. Then take the negative wire from the one set of 6 volts that are in series and take the positive from the other set to run up to inverter. Like opposing corners. But when you go to 6 or 8 batteries it seems like there's always going to be one or 2 sets of batteries in the center that won't be charging or discharging at the same rate as the others. Does that make sense at all or have I confused you? How do you have your 6 batteries hooked up? When you check your specific gravity once a month are all batteries the same reading? Richard

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

leftcoastadv, Sorry I just reread your post and realized you have six 12 volt batteries not 6 volt. But the question of balancing still applies to 12 volt batteries as well. So 6 12 volts in parallel gives you 620 amps? They're 103+ amps each? Thanks, Richard

highdesertranger · May 22, 2013

so you want a ton of reserve?  that nuclear winter thingy I suppose.  have you looked into fork lift batts or like an 8d or 2 8ds.  it seems like your not concerned with weight.  just throwing out some ideas.  highdesertranger

Laughing Richard · May 22, 2013

highdesertranger, The plan is or was to be able to go without ever needing to use a generator but "the nuclear winter thingy" or just pure survival wouldn't be bad to plan for either. Yes I have looked into the big 8d and had toyed with the idea of buying 3 for around 1000 amp hrs. But I think I've come to my senses and have decided to just start out with a smaller light weight battery bank and see how my usage goes for the first year before making any further decisions. I suppose I could always fill up the van from front to rear with all batteries and cover the top and sides of the van with solar panels and then apply to FEMA as a portable power plant!!<img src="/images/boards/smilies/biggrin.gif" class="emoticon bbc_img"><img src="/images/boards/smilies/rofl.gif" class="emoticon bbc_img">

leftcoastadv · May 23, 2013

Laughing Richard, Let me try to explain my setup a little better as I can see how my original post was not very clear.  I'm using the GC2's which are 6 volt Golf Cart batteries. (204 amp hour I believe) Wired in series and parallel to create a 12 volt system. (612 amp hour total, I was going from memory when I incorrectly said 620ah) <img rel="lightbox" src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-f8fp2hN-W8A/UZ2RcC5ovYI/AAAAAAAAI_U/rmhhDGBH2p0/s800/battery.jpg" class="bbc_img"> This is how my current system looks. (You'll have to excuse the quick Paint drawing) The batteries on the two ends get used harder than the set in the middle. Bank 1 and 3 will wear out quicker than bank 2. The specific gravity of all of them is quite similar but not exact and bank 1 and 3 use water quicker than bank 2. The water usage is really the only way I can tell they are being used harder.  As far as balancing the system better... well I need to rewire it to do that.  <img rel="lightbox" src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAI_s/zwJ3L_FDLXk/s800/battery%20balanced.jpg" class="bbc_img"> This would be the proper way to wire the batteries so that all 3 share the load evenly.  The main thing I've learned is it is very important to keep the wire lengths equal. Also what I've learned from both the AZ wind and sun guys along with their message board is that anything past 6 - 6 volt batteries and/or 800 ah is that we really should step to a 24 volt system. Currently I'm on the ragged edge of a 12 volt system.  Mind you our usage is a bit extreme especially for the "van dweller" world. We have a chest fridge and freezer, 12 volt lights and fans, tv, dvd, laptop, etc  We're using close to 100ah a day and never going below 50% depth of discharge we get right at 3 days reserve capacity before charging is in order.  We're in desperate need of a full solar setup. <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle"> About 800 watts worth would do the trick.  Hope that helped a bit. <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle">

Batteries-Lead Acid Wet Cell or AGM and what about L16s? Help!

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