Advice for Getting Inaccurate CA DMV Info Removed?

[hipsterreplacement]

At first I started a post in a narrative way to tell this complicated story, then I deleted and figured I'd better just figure out why I wanted to post it here...

I bought a used 2004 Ford e250 Presidential Conversions custom van. Wheelchair-accessible custom van. It's not now and never has been a paratransit van. But for some reason when I tried to insure it with the insurer I use for my other car, they asked a lot of weird questions, had me send photos in, then refused to quote as they will not insure it. They claim it is a commercial van. Despite any fool who knows anything about vans looking at the inside and being able to see it's *not*. I mean, it screams "custom van" all over with its carpeting, plus upholstery, and decorative bits.

I will be appealing with my insurer for various reasons, but one reason they're convinced this is a "commercial paratransit" van is that something funky comes up with the VIN number. I used Carfax before buying and couldn't see anything, but something in its DMV past seems to flag it for insurers.

So I was wondering if anyone here has done battle with the CA DMV and knows who to contact and how to do it. Thanks.

 

[VanFan]

I feel your frustration, having gone through this myself recently with a brand new custom van on a 2500 cargo van chassis. The VIN itself is what provided the info. that my insurance company freaked over. My new van had no DMV history. (You can do a search using this NHTSA tool: https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/decoder/)

After about six hours on the phone with them and a couple of "affiliate" insurers, I finally got coverage. I honestly am not sure what made them decide to relent. The crazy thing is they have covered my older conversion van for 15 years. It is on a lighter chassis (they did mention the GVWR), and the VIN shows it as an "incomplete chassis" rather than a cargo van, but still...

Wish I could help. It's just nuts. These things are all over the place, so somebody must be insuring them!!

 

[hipsterreplacement]

It is on a lighter chassis (they did mention the GVWR), and the VIN shows it as an "incomplete chassis" rather than a cargo van, but still...

Ah, that "incomplete chassis" phrase might be to blame...makes one think it's a cutaway van. Although even those can just be used to re-make a Ford Econoline classic, like Field Vans does.

I was browsing the archived Ford site, which in 2004 had links specifically for mobility upfitting. They partnered with the Christopher Reeve Foundation on promoting it. I was trying to print those to PDF in case I get into a prolonged fight over this. I wanted to show that Ford knows this isn't a commercial van. I wrote Ford's accessibility/mobility program to see if they can help document this.

I'm seriously frosted as a longtime AAA member that they're this at-a-distance and unaccountable in their decisionmaking. So that's what makes me want to fight it. Probably doesn't help that an insurance agent told me that a lot of car insurers are dropping Californians because they don't feel they're making enough profit. So there are fewer choices besides AAA.

I just really thought they'd relent when the saw the photos. I haven't touched a thing inside since buying it and it is just the usual plus custom van stuff.


If I really can't get it insured affordably, I wonder if I'll have trouble selling it on. Maybe I'll have to drive it up to Canada and sell it...they'll appreciate a low miles, no rust CA van. In the meantime, I can't free up liquidity by selling my minivan as planned. I have to hang onto it in case I can't get this van insured.

I just really needed more space. I'm 6 foot tall, not svelte, and I have a quadricycle with e-assist that I really don't trust being out on a rack behind the minivan, in the open. I fear theft or vandalism if I park it for any real amount of time. I thought I finally had a vehicle large enough to roll it inside.

 

[VanFan]

Ah, that "incomplete chassis" phrase might be to blame...

Actually, the "incomplete chassis" is the older van that they've insured for ages. The "cargo van" or "truck" designation relates to the new one that I had trouble getting insured. I explained (maybe five times) that the cargo vans are shipped directly from GM to the conversion company, where they are "upfitted" as luxury passenger vehicles with seating for seven or nine, then sent to Chevrolet dealerships around the country for sale.

 

[hipsterreplacement]

Actually, the "incomplete chassis" is the older van that they've insured for ages. The "cargo van" or "truck" designation relates to the new one that I had trouble getting insured. I explained (maybe five times) that the cargo vans are shipped directly from GM to the conversion company, where they are "upfitted" as luxury passenger vehicles with seating for seven or nine, then sent to Chevrolet dealerships around the country for sale.

Exactly! I kept trying to explain this to the AAA agent. That's why I spent some time tonight printing to PDF the archive of Ford's site at the time the e250 was sold, showing this was a Ford-approved program.

 

[hipsterreplacement]

The plot thickens... I was trying to decide whether to escalate with AAA re the denial to write a policy on that basis, or end up having to go in person to AAA or DMV to see what's going on in the record.

I didn't get any manuals or anything like that from the seller, but there were some tea-stained papers in the cubby and one of them was an old Progressive insurance card...where I see it was insured (not under the seller's name, but someone else's) as commercial.

Using web search and the Internet Wayback Machine, I was able to find that though nothing about the interior is commercial (it's not a commercial bus or paratransit van...just a regular personal custom mobility van), they registered it commercial because they ran a business serving disabled people.

So I went and got a quote from Progressive Direct (Progressive hasn't totally pulled out of the CA car insurance market, but is not offering anything through independent agents anymore, nor advertising. You can still get a quote online and we'll see if that pans out into an actual written policy. I'm also getting quotes from the 3 companies still in the CA market that this insurance agent works with. I'll see if they're competitive at all. The insurance agent is great, known to family for years. Great to work with an experienced human being who knows insurance.

I don't know if it's possible to get the thing rolled back to a non-commercial policy. Nothing was done to the van to make it commercial in build. And I have no intention of using it commercially so I don't know why I should be held to a commercial policy.

In the meantime, making up my mind on it, practicing driving it, etc. have all been put on hold because I don't want to drive it or park it anywhere else without insurance.

Just posting this saga in case folks who are looking to buy a van read this later. While I had read about other people's experiencing difficulty getting insurance, I had only read that referring to cargo vans. This is a new wrinkle on things.

 

[thegoodtom1]

Perhaps it's worth a try to insure it at an expensive broker for a month just to change the commercial to private use. Then go back to AAA an try again?

 

[maki2]

First try to see if you can get the original record using the VINnumber from the company that did the conversion. There was a change in the companies name in the year 2020. But it is entirely possible that from the year 2004 referencing the VIN number that there could be a digital invoice record which exactly states the work that was done to the vehicle. That company might be the best one to give you advice about what classification for titles and insurance the Van belongs in. They are also going to be a reliable source to recommend a list of vehicle insurance companies that provide insurance for it.
The photo below captured from the internet shows the original name of the conversion company, the new name by the company that assumed the conversion service business and the year the name change took place. It won’t be a difficult search for you to come up with the company website and a phone number for both the original and current business ownerships involved.

I am not an “ AI”artificial intelligence, just a human who is better than average at sorting out how and where to obtain information and help. In your case before you can go forward with a title change you need to step backwards in your vehicles history and get the original foundation of information to prove what you need to do. With that proof you will then have the data you need for any title changes and insurance providers.

 

[VanFan]

Interesting. I appreciate you keeping us up-to-date. It sounds like you're making progress.

I did contact the conversion company about my insurance woes, and they swore they'd "never heard of such a thing." Now that I think about it, that was when I thought the only problem was insuring the add-ons beyond the $5,000 cap USAA had initially indicated. That was before the whole "can't insure it based on class/weight of vehicle" episode.

I'm very partial to conversion vans (I know, I know), and hope you find a way to enjoy yours!

 

[hipsterreplacement]

Thanks. I did actually look up the customizer as one of the first things I did. And contacted them. They have not responded. I tried again using another person's email in another part of the company. No response so far.

I also contacted Ford's accessibility program to see what their records could be. No response.

I've spent hours looking up not just the old customizer's website, but Ford's old program, old sites/parts for the various wheelchair parts therein, etc.

I'll have to see if I can break through to Superior again, but they may just keep ignoring me because it's not under warranty and it's not a new sales prospect. I'm trying to finish up a course I'm doing right now so I've temporarily lost sight of my "to do" list while waiting for a couple more quotes to come back, but eventually I'll have to (a) file a user complaint with AAA and (b) file a complaint with the CA Insurance Commissioner's office as well.

 

[hipsterreplacement]

Perhaps it's worth a try to insure it at an expensive broker for a month just to change the commercial to private use. Then go back to AAA an try again?

That's certainly a possibility. When I was even trying to get a quote, it was with the idea it might be temporary because I need to be able to drive the van around more and really contemplate what I can afford to do to change it to my liking to know whether to keep it or sell it on and hopefully get something that is more like what I need (in terms of having a clear cargo area...this van is great in many ways. Really good. It's just full of carpeting and captain's chairs, etc. that I do not have loads physical oomph to pull out myself.).

 

[maki2]

The truth is you are not actually ready to commit to doing the project. No one can here make you that decision for you. They can tell you about insurance brokers or how to find a worker but they can’t make your mind up to keep or sell.

So the real work only you can do is to sit down and do some work on making a decision. That means either putting it up for sale as is or contacting an insurance broker who will do the work of finding insurance for you. When you talk to insurance agents DO NOT get all chatty and mention you are going to turn it into a Campervan by making physical changes. You will kill any chance of getting it insured. Keep a tight zipper on your lips about that. Not even a tiny whisper of a mention of any such plan should be made because they have no liability class in their risk charts to insure it as a POTENTIAL home built Campervan conversion. They can’t put a value in what does not exist.

Getting carpet and seats removed is not a hugely difficult thing. There are plenty of people around looking for weekend and evening extra work that is “under the table cash work”. Put the word out in your local community and that person will appear. The reality is that once the seats and carpet are removed the resale value drops.

It takes courage to commit to start removing the interior stuff like seats and carpets because it will devalue the vehicle and make it harder to sell If you change your mind partway through the project. The question is do you have that kind of courage and they stick-to-it determination to see the project through? It is jump off the cliff time. Just get busy and see if you can find a broker and hire some labor who will work for cash. Do not add in that stumbling block of fear for wondering if you can drive it around because that vehicle was designed to be comfortable for driving it around.

 

[hipsterreplacement]

The truth is you are not actually ready to commit to doing the project. No one can here make you that decision for you. They can tell you about insurance brokers or how to find a worker but they can’t make your mind up to keep or sell.

I am multiply disabled. I have other resource issues that affect my life. Please stop assuming you know how easy something is for me. You know how easy it is for you.

 

[maki2]

I am multiply disabled. I have other resource issues that affect my life. Please stop assuming you know how easy something is for me. You know how easy it is for you.

Here is what I know about me.
I have my own physical disability issues. I had a major work related back injury in 1984 and have had 2 subsequent surgeries and have to do ongoing physical therapy. I have to take pain medication and sometimes muscle relaxers to do some of the ordinary, everyday chores in my full time nomadic life. I have lifting restrictions, restrictions on bending and restrictions on twisting my spine as well. I have permanent nerve damage in my left leg and foot from the original injury. I need a back brace as well.There are many things I cannot do by myself such as removing rows of seats in a van and getting them transported. In fact I had to get help to do exactly that. There are a number of tasks I cannot do. But what I am able to I do such as talking to an insurance agent or finding helpers I can do for myself. I had to go through 7 eye surgeries just to be able to have good enough vision to drive again after various issues in my eyes. I have arthritis. When or even if you ever do get out into the nomadic communities you will find lots of seniors as well as younger persons who have lots of multiple physical issues as well as mental issues limiting what they can do. There are people out here who pitch in and help. I see it happening all around me. I get help and I give help too. We are out here, camping with each other. However you have to make the effort to show up and be in the right place at the right time. You can’t do that without vehicle liability insurance coverage.

You can go on being mad at me or you can accept that you can find the help you need but only IF YOUnare willing to realize that you are the ONLY person who can get on the phone and get the ball rolling to make these things happen. So tough love time, get going and just call or email an insurance broker instead of lashing out at another disabled person in a forum who is trying to help you get help for yourself.

 

[VanFan]

I'm sure you have done this many times over, but I know I revisited the "what are my needs/wants" and "what are my options" questions an agonizing number of times before settling on a replacement van. There just weren't a lot of choices based on our priorities.

I had contacted a number of customizers, "vanlife" upfitters, body shops and RV techs trying to find the kind of help I might need--with very little luck. I also did a deep dive into the world of motorhomes, campers, trailers, etc. and came full circle to a conversion van. A difference, I think, is that I actually wanted the interior finish out.

Removing the unwanted seating was a big deal for us, too, this time around. We hired a moving company to carry the captains to the garage and the power sofa to the curb. They earned their minimum by moving some other things while they were here.

Frustration and uncertainty aside, I think you'll get "there," and want to know how it all works out.

 

[hipsterreplacement]

I feel your frustration, having gone through this myself recently with a brand new custom van on a 2500 cargo van chassis. The VIN itself is what provided the info. that my insurance company freaked over. My new van had no DMV history. (You can do a search using this NHTSA tool: https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/decoder/)

After about six hours on the phone with them and a couple of "affiliate" insurers, I finally got coverage. I honestly am not sure what made them decide to relent. The crazy thing is they have covered my older conversion van for 15 years. It is on a lighter chassis (they did mention the GVWR), and the VIN shows it as an "incomplete chassis" rather than a cargo van, but still...

Wish I could help. It's just nuts. These things are all over the place, so somebody must be insuring them!!

I'm replying back just in case this information could help someone in future.

All told, this took me about 2 months (because I have school, housekeeping, and other things I gotta do...) to find something of a solution for. (And in the meantime, a local AAA office messed up my address so the new tile went into limbo and I had to apply for a replacement title so I had two DMV-related things I was chasing down at the same time.)

I went through all the regular channels but as I'm sure you're familiar with, all parties are now designed for as little accountability and human contact as possible. So anything that doesn't fit a common template is very difficult to reach a human to speak about. Eventually, after having done everything reasonable to do things "the way I'm supposed to do", I contacted my state assemblymember's office. They talked to someone in the DMV for me, who confirmed that the van is not commercial. It is in their records as a personal vehicle. So it's the insurance companies calling it "commercial".

In the meantime, I had lodged a complaint with the CA Insurance Commissioner's office.

I tried a couple times to reach the ways I'd been told to make a complaint as an AAA member. The first time the voice menu options didn't include complaint/feedback, so I went to the website. I wrote it up through the website, then got an answer via email that they don't do these things via email...I should call. Called same number, which had the same lack of "complaint/feedback" options. So I chose insurance option.

I described and lodged complaint about the lack of accountability, the refusal to even give a quote, and detailed the steps I was taking with the state about it. He wrote the complaints down, the proceeded to give me a quote and now I'm insured under a personal auto policy, which is what should have happened 2 months ago. I have no idea if the organizations involved will mend their ways, but at least fighting it and holding out got me an affordable insurance policy.

When it comes to a state or fed issue, at least for CA reps I've had experience with, if you're having trouble with a state or federal office and you've done as much as you can the way you're supposed to be doing, you can contact the respective representative's office and they are supposed to help you out. I'm not swearing that all will. And they may not help you in the way you would like to be helped (solving a systemic problem so that it's better for everyone, not just you), but at least in my experience, they do actually help a lot of the time.

Because of their intercession, the DMV also had the new title sent directly to my door and handed to me in person, so there wouldn't be any question of misdelivery or it getting lost.

 

[VanFan]

I'm replying back just in case this information could help someone in future.

The effort you've made to let us know how this worked out is appreciated. I've wondered, and wish you the best with your van. Being patient, persistent, and resourceful doesn't guarantee results--but it sure makes more possible!

 

[Dirtrider]

A couple years back I purchased a 2015 Chevy Express van to convert. State Farm called me back and stated in was a commercial vehicle. I had to explain that chassis like this can be vans, extended vans, motorhomes, box trucks, etc. all using the same chassis. I also took pictures to prove it was a passenger van.
Later on she called me back and asked if i had finished the conversion which I did, She asked if I could takes pics of the toilet/sink/refer/bed and then she listed it as a motorhome which dropped my insurance by about 80%.