LTVA - Black Tank Question

[RogerD]

I have read that LTVA's require you to have a black tank over 10 gallons.

I know that this is dependant on where at the LTVA you park.

To those of you that have stayed at one and have a black tank. 

Do they just look and verify that you have a black tank?

The reason I ask is, what if you just have some form of an urine-diverting toilet and not an actual RV toilet? Just the pee goes to the black tank.

 

[highdesertranger]

it is up to the rangers discretion. however according to the law a black tank is mandatory unless you camp within 500ft of a restroom. as a note not all LTVA's have restrooms. so at these LTVA's you must have a black tank.

it's easy to see if a vehicle has a black tank by the valve set up.

as a side note this is not only a LTVA thing, other heavy use areas have black tank rules. the black tank rules are only going to get more widespread as time goes on. this is why I can't figure out why people remove the black tank, after all the law says you must have a black tank it doesn't say you have to use it.

highdesertranger

 

[ped]

Everything is going to get worse and more abitrary the more people out there. Ive watched with horror for 9 years as things like the RTR grows by the thousands.

 

[maki2]

The rule is very easy to understand. There is nothing complex about it.
They want human bio waste and grey water to go into their sewage treatment system via a hose from a permanently mounted RV tank. You need to have at least 10 gallons of capacity. It can be a combination of both the black and grey water tanks. But you must have your human bio waste going into some type of a permanent tank.

I myself have a grey water tank for sink waste water that is permanetly installed and drains via a thru wall hose connection port and a special marine toilet that can be portable or it can be pumped out via the use of a macerator pump via a thru wall hose port into their sewer collection hookup system. The combined total is just over 10 gallons. But if I did not have that pump out option for my solid and liquid human bio waste that goes directly into their sewer collection facility then I would not qualify for staying on LTV land. That of course does not mean I am never going to use a bag and pee bottle with funnel option, it just means I made sure when I designed my renovation that I have the ability to meet their requirements should I want to stay on LTV BLM land or use hookups if I want to do a long term stay in an RV park site. I have no idea what life will bring to me in the future for my living comfortably needs but at least I have kept my options open so I have some variety to choose from.

I do not have any externaly mounted waste tanks as there is not room for it under my little travel trailer. You don't have to have that big diameter black water tank hookup if you use a macerator pump. The macerated liquid goes out through a garden hose type of fitting. If I did not have that macerator pump out option for my solid and liquid human bio waste that goes directly into their sewer collection facility then I would not qualify for staying on LTV land. That of course does not mean I am never going to use a bag and pee bottle with funnel option, or use my marine toilet in its portable toilet mode, it just means I made sure when I designed my renovation I made sure that I do have the ability to meet their requirements should I want to stay on LTV BLM land or use hookups if I want to do a long term stay in an RV park site. I have no idea what life will bring to me in the future for my living comfortably needs but at least I have kept my options open to allow some variety of living situations to choose from.

My macerator pump cost about $100.00 and I was able to purchase the marine pump out convertable, portable toilet for just under $100.00 on close out. Of course there need to be wiring installed for the macerator pump and some plumbing lines. I bought a small poly waste tank for under the sink and plumbed it in with a drain at the bottom, shut off value and hose port to the exterior. So extra work and expense but this can be done in a van, RV, cargo trailer or as in my case the renovation of a vintage travel trailer that never had a permanent toilet or sink waste and had no room for waste tanks underneath it. Be creative, you can make things work with a bit of extra money and labor.

 

[RogerD]

I have no issue putting in a black tank and all the proper plumbing.

I was just curious if they would ever come into your rig and check your toilet and not allow you to stay if it wasn't an actual RV toilet VS just a urine-diverting toilet.

 

[maki2]

https://www.campingworld.com/dometic-portable-rvmarine-toilet-5-gallon-white-56069.html
This is the toilet I installed that has an option to covert it for macerator pumpout. You do have to buy extra parts so that you have the option of making it work for marine or for portable toilet emptying. But I would rarely want to put in the tube that hooks up for macerator use unless I want to spend a few months in an RV park or stay in LTV areas. Remember it does not come with a pump, that is an extra thing you would need to research and purchase.

 

[tx2sturgis]

At the LaPosa South LTVA, we had two (or maybe three) rangers, one of them a supervisor, tell us that self-containment can mean a 5 gallon portapotty, as long as it contains the waste in liquid form that can be dumped into a proper receptacle, such as a blue-boy or RV dump, OR a vault toilet.

The operative word is 'self-contained'...even a tent can be 'self-contained' as long as there is a 5 gallon portable camping toilet inside or close by. 

This is what several of us were told, so two of us went into Quartzsite and bought Camco 5 gallon portable camping toilets and the rangers said that was fine and left us alone for the rest of our stay. I asked one of the rangers if they would be verifying any of this by visual inspections. He laughed and said, "Oh hell no, I wont be looking at your toilet!"

As HDR reminds us, it is always up to the ranger who is on-duty at the time. I doubt that one portapotty can legally accomodate 12 people, so common sense should be...you know, common.

 

[ped]

Thats good to know because its outright discrimination otherwise. It boils the use of LTVA to class C/A.

 

[bonvanroulez]

two (or maybe three) rangers

Sounds like the rangers that said there was no 14-day enforcement at Ehrenberg, lol.  :angel:

I can say after spending the winter at Hot Springs and Pilot Knob LTVAs that the self-contained rule was enforced, as written.

b. Self-contained camping units must have a permanent affixed waste water holding tank of 10-gallon minimum capacity. BLM does not consider port-a-potty systems, systems that utilize portable holding tanks, or permanent holding tanks of less than 10-gallon capacity, to be self-contained. 


Maybe enforcement at La Posa is looser because there are toilets all around. I believe enforcement at Imperial Dam is pretty strict with non-self-contained staying only near the toilets on Senator Wash Road, and in the “Gravel Pit”.

 

[bonvanroulez]

It occurs to me that La Posa is under the Yuma field office of BLM, while all the other LTVAs are in California, under the El Centro field office. So maybe Yuma has some unwritten policies on the rules. Also in California the hosts and volunteers at the camps seem to be the front-line of enforcement with rangers patrolling occasionally.

 

[Seminole Wind]

At the LaPosa South LTVA, we had two (or maybe three) rangers, one of them a supervisor, tell us that self-containment can mean a 5 gallon portapotty, as long as it contains the waste in liquid form that can be dumped into a proper receptacle, such as a blue-boy or RV dump, OR a vault toilet.

in many places dumping portapotties or blueboys into a vault toilet is prohibited. be sure you know the rules. and if you do dump in a vault toilet, dont spill your $h1t all over the seat....

 

[tx2sturgis]

I realize the rules are enforced differently in different places, BUT...that's what we were told at LaPosa, and the ranger said dumping a 5 gallon portapotty in the vault toilet was ok. Of course the next guy might have a s**t fit about it...pun intended!

I also read the same information as posted above on the website...but...boots-on-the-ground reports also have merit. 

All anyone has to do, is ask at the gate to make sure of the rules being enforced at the time, which is what we did.

 

[highdesertranger]

that is really odd that they told you it was ok to dump into the vault toilets,  as these signs are posted on all the doors to the vault toilets at La Posa south,



in fact I have seen this sign or one similar posted at most vault toilets throughout the west.

highdesertranger

 

[tx2sturgis]

It could be he was un-aware of those signs. Of course, we never did that anyway.

I think his point was that in our case, it would be ok, in our situation, right after the government shutdown had ended and it was a mess out there. Services were still limited and some of those guys were stuck on 'Dumpster Patrol'. 

Now, a ranger who was telling 10,000 campers that they are allowed to do that would be a different story altogether.

It's a bit like the video where a ranger, in uniform, was telling a group at the RTR that the 14 day limit at Ehrenberg was not being enforced. Until suddenly, it WAS being enforced. 

It all depends on the man (or woman) in uniform you are dealing with.

 

[maki2]

Are they going to come into your vehicle and inspect it?  I guess it just depends, but of course they might just use that as an excuse if they want some kind of valid reason to go inside. I don't know what their bosses might decide the ranger ought to be doing that day. The system is such that bureaucrats are forced to justify their salaries now and again.

There is a BLM website link that contains the quoted information stated below.  This website also has a link to the full .pdf file for LTVA  rules. 
https://www.blm.gov/documents/arizo...california-desert-do/public-room-frequently-0


The rules on the website state that if there is a posted rule right at the site and it differs from the rules on the website then the locally posted rule is the one that must be obeyed.

 

[highdesertranger]

usually it is real obvious what vehicle has a tank and what one doesn't. they don't need to go inside your vehicle as the tank is on the outside. for instance any van that is not a commercial conversion probably doesn't have a tank, anybody who has a car or pick-up and a tent set up doesn't have a tank. highdesertranger

 

[bullfrog]

So if you want to not worry about waste while staying in a LTVA make sure you have a 10 gallon holding tank that can be dumped at an RV dump location. If you wish to do anything else ask and be prepaired to get a different answer from every person you contact that might be in charge of enforcement (there may not be anyone or anyone that knows available) and if you keep asking you will possibly find one that gives you the answer you want. That seems to be the way things work now days when dealing with the government agencies. This is one of the things that happen when there is a lack of staffing or government shut downs. Ain't it great!!! LOL!!! If you use the micro flush stations as intended be sure to bring yoiur own cleaning supplies!

 

[B and C]

Parking at an LTVA is not dependant on having a 10 gal. tank but where you can park.

 

[bullfrog]

In Glen Canyon National Recreation Area primitive camping areas (this is not an LTVA but a federal 14 day limit camping area) if you camp within a certain distance of the micro flush station you are not required to have a porta potty. Otherwise you are and even then if toliet paper or other waste is found on the ground you will be warned or cited. Local superintendents are responsible for their parks rules and regulations so it always is a good idea to check not only the web site but also with the local enforcement before going, literally!

 

[highdesertranger]

"That seems to be the way things work now days when dealing with the government agencies. This is one of the things that happen when there is a lack of staffing or government shut downs."

I deal with the BLM and forest service a lot. I find it's not just now-a-days but it's been like this for a long time, like around 40 years. I think it has more to do with no one wants to take the responsibility for saying yes. it is much safer for them to say no. if they tell you it's ok to do something but their boss doesn't like it they get in trouble but if they tell you no there is no recourse for you. you can't sue them for saying no even if they were wrong.

highdesertranger