Lower Cost Tow Vehicles

[kaBLOOnie Boonster]

ok I will try to answer a few of those at least,  
1.  Jasper Engines and transmissions.  from my experience I would never use them,  high failure rate.  they make up for it in volume.  if I need an engine I will rebuild it myself or get a factory replacement.  I rebuilt the engine in my truck in 2001 and although it's getting tired it still runs good.
2.  repair shops don't want to use used parts because you usually only get a 30 day warranty plus a lot of the parts are bad right off the shelf so they end up doing the job 2 or 3 times.  not good for their overhead.
3.  I like simple and I hate timing belts so I might be prejudice with my answer.
4.  people can make stats say anything they want to show their point of view.  any person or group using stats I take with a grain of salt.  real life experience is a much better barometer IMO.
5.  can't help you there.
6.  go to where the locals go.  ask around.
highdesertranger

Thanks for the honest answer on #1, Jasper engines. It's not I wanted to hear of course. That's life.

#6 "go to where the locals go". My first response to that was, "To most of my questions, locals just give a blank stare, and some response like, 'I have no idea.' "  But maybe I give up too easily. Just had a success at a repair shop asking about a low cost towing place nearby. That is what I do these days with my 268,000 mile 1995 Ford van: take a pro-active approach, and be ready for "it".

 

[minimotos95]

Remember Chevy pushrod v8s have chain driven cams. Geared timing sets aren't too expensive and shouldn't take more than 2 hours of labor for any credible parts changer. But really the geared timing sets from what I have seen are less reliable than the original chain setup in heavy use.
I believe you are correct that the vans still use the 4.8l and 6.0l vortec V8s. The 4.3l, 5.3l and Duramax were discontinued from the passemger and cargo van lines

 

[kaBLOOnie Boonster]

A friend of mine just hauled 3,500 pounds of utility trailer and contents from Oregon to Colorado with a 16-year-old Dodge Caravan. He would not recommend doing that.

But I see all sorts of small crossovers, minivans and medium size sedans towing small, lightweight travel trailers. As John61CT said, it depends on what you want to tow. The fact you're talking pickups and vans suggests you have something on the larger half of the scale in mind.

When I hit the road in my 2800 pound (LOADED) cargo trailer, I went through a euphoric 'all things are possible now' phase. But then I started looking at the 350 pound tongue weight limits on crossover utility vehicles (CUVs). And their price. They are mommie-mobiles loaded up with all the crap that families need. Or is that just male retrogrouch curmdugeon prejudice?

But CUVs cost over $30,000. I could buy a low mileage Frontier or Silverado for $20,000.

Even worse -- rant warning -- because of industry trend headwinds due to you-know-who, the V6 engines are disappearing in CUVs are being replaced with 4 cylinders with turbos. How about an engine full of hamsters on crack?

 

[hepcat]

You are NOT going to 'beat the system.' The best you'll be able to do is put a crate motor in your van. I've got the same drivetrain in my '95.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had an '07 FJ Cruiser that I really liked. It had a 4 liter V6, 6 speed manual and a 5,000 lb tow capacity. It also had a center differential rendering it un-towable four-down for towing behind my moho. I needed a tow dolly and had to drop the rear driveshaft every time I towed it. It also needed new tires and the wheels were corroding from salt. It was going to need a clutch and water pump at some point. All in all, I was going to end up dumping a bunch of money in it to keep it.

I wasn't opposed to doing that, except I was tired of dropping the driveshaft, so I went looking for a new towed. I had some requirements: it had to be a six-speed manual 4WD, have at least a 3500lb tow capacity (5k lbs was better) and it had to be able to be towed four-down just by moving the transfer case into neutral.

The last vehicle standing is Jeep. No others met my requirements. So, since I always buy used, I shopped and found that two year old, 35k mile used Jeeps were only $4-$5k cheaper than new. My way to 'beat the system' was to buy a new '16 Wrangler Rubicon without as much of the "fluff" as I could get. And I got it for $4k more than the two year old used ones I was looking at. It's got a base radio, and base speakers and PS, PW, PB, but not much else. It was more expensive because I wanted a Dana 44 front end and an HD transfer case and those only come in the Rubicon package. I didn't even care if I had power windows... but it does. Not only do I tow it behind my moho, I tow a landscape trailer with a 26hp Kubota to mow and blow snow with, and I launch and recover a 21' sailboat with it at the lake.

Now HERE's the 'system beater.' Chrysler offers a lifetime, nearly bumper-to-bumper warranty for their products. Lifetime. As long as I'm still alive and I still own the vehicle. The only caveat is that if the repair estimate is higher than the retail blue-book value of the Jeep, they buy it out at that amount. Since twenty-five year old Jeeps are still bringing $12k... it's a pretty safe bet that I'll be able to drive this thing as long as I can still drive a car. The stuff covered under that warranty is amazing. Shocks are even covered as are all of the electrics and electronics. This will likely be the last car I buy, and I don't care HOW complex the Variable Valve Timing stuff is, or any of the other systems... I won't have to pay for repairs. Of course Chrysler is betting that I spent the bucks... and that I'll move on LONG before they need to cover anything... that's how warranties work. But they're stuck with me.

So... THAT's how to beat the current system. Buy a new car that has the least technology you can get by with, and then buy a lifetime warranty to cover it. And then keep and drive that car until they have to buy it back from you.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

6. Know any tricks for finding low overhead mechanics in rural areas, where you are paying for skill rather than for expensive real estate overhead?

I don't know any GOOD mechanics who don't use the flat rate manual for pricing their work.

Good mechanics are scarce.  They have all the work they can handle, so they have no need to discount their labor prices.

 

[minimotos95]

Even worse -- rant warning -- because of industry trend headwinds due to you-know-who, the V6 engines are disappearing in CUVs are being replaced with 4 cylinders with turbos. How about an engine full of hamsters on crack?

Why would you favor a v6 over a inline 4 when mounted sideways like in the front wheel drive car platform of a CUV?
Many times when they shoehorn V6s into those little engine bay it winds up costing you an arm and leg in labor on basic maintenance like having to pull the entire motor to do a timing belt. Or when you are doing your own basic maintenance it ends in a lot of tool throwing because you can't get the spark plug, starter, alternator or whatever part out from between the engine and the firewall.
I haven't been paying attention to CUVs but I'm sure they are still available with base model non turbocharged 4 cylinder? except the Juke of course. It's not like you need a 2-300hp v6 to haul your trailer, at 2800lbs even a 100hp 125 ft-lb 4 cylinder can handle that in the mountains.

 

[kaBLOOnie Boonster]

You are NOT going to 'beat the system.'   The best you'll be able to do is put a crate motor in your van.  I've got the same drivetrain in my '95.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had an '07 FJ Cruiser that I really liked.  It had a 4 liter V6, 6 speed manual and a 5,000 lb tow capacity.  It also had a center differential rendering it un-towable four-down for towing behind my moho.  I needed a tow dolly and had to drop the rear driveshaft every time I towed it.  It also needed new tires and the wheels were corroding from salt.  It was going to need a clutch and water pump at some point.  All in all, I was going to end up dumping a bunch of money in it to keep it.

I wasn't opposed to doing that, except I was tired of dropping the driveshaft, so I went looking for a new towed.   I had some requirements:  it had to be a six-speed manual 4WD, have at least a 3500lb tow capacity (5k lbs was better) and it had to be able to be towed four-down just by moving the transfer case into neutral.

The last vehicle standing is Jeep.  No others met my requirements.  So, since I always buy used, I shopped and found that two year old, 35k mile used Jeeps were only $4-$5k cheaper than new.  My way to 'beat the system' was to buy a new '16 Wrangler Rubicon without as much of the "fluff" as I could get.  And I got it for $4k more than the two year old used ones I was looking at.   It's got a base radio, and base speakers and PS, PW, PB, but not much else.   It was more expensive because I wanted a Dana 44 front end and an HD transfer case and those only come in the Rubicon package.  I didn't even care if I had power windows... but it does.   Not only do I tow it behind my moho, I tow a landscape trailer with a 26hp Kubota to mow and blow snow with, and I launch and recover a 21' sailboat with it at the lake.

Now HERE's the 'system beater.'   Chrysler offers a lifetime, nearly bumper-to-bumper warranty for their products.  Lifetime.  As long as I'm still alive and I still own the vehicle.  The only caveat is that if the repair estimate is higher than the retail blue-book value of the Jeep, they buy it out at that amount.  Since twenty-five year old Jeeps are still bringing $12k... it's a pretty safe bet that I'll be able to drive this thing as long as I can still drive a car.   The stuff covered under that warranty is amazing.  Shocks are even covered as are all of the electrics and electronics.   This will likely be the last car I buy, and I don't care HOW complex the Variable Valve Timing stuff is, or any of the other systems...  I won't have to pay for repairs.  Of course Chrysler is betting that I spent the bucks... and that I'll move on LONG before they need to cover anything... that's how warranties work.  But they're stuck with me.

So... THAT's how to beat the current system.  Buy a new car that has the least technology you can get by with, and then buy a lifetime warranty to cover it.  And then keep and drive that car until they have to buy it back from you.

I was out of date on the FCA warranty, so thank you for bringing it up. That DOES sound like a good way to beat the system.

One legal wrinkle to consider. What good is the warranty if Fiat-Chrysler corporation gets divorced next year, and become Kia-Chrysler or whatever?

 

[cyndi]

Folks, this is just a friendly reminder that many of us have limited bandwidth so we ask that you carefully trim any quotes you include to the bare minimum. When you are reading on a phone, and you have to read the same post twice to get a new comment, it can be frustrating--especially if there are pictures!

Be kind and trim!!

 

[hepcat]

I was out of date on the FCA warranty, so thank you for bringing it up. That DOES sound like a good way to beat the system.

One legal wrinkle to consider. What good is the warranty if Fiat-Chrysler corporation gets divorced next year, and become Kia-Chrysler or whatever?

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, nor have I even stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently...  but I believe as long as Chrysler exists, Federal law mandates that existing warranties stay in effect.  All bets are off, of course, if Chrysler goes under...  but the best you can do is make your decisions based on what you know today.  And when I bought the Jeep and the warranty, it was a good plan.

 

[John61CT]

Pretty good bet no matter the party in power, companies that big not allowed to fail.

How many times now for Chrysler?

 

[user 37446]

If you go that late (new) read up on the GM truck forums about the variable cylinder deactivation issues.  I'm not up enough on the motors that had it, probably the 5.3, don't know about the 6.0 or the smaller 4.8... many issues were reported.

If you go older to get prior to that problem, watch any of the 2007 build motors, there was a high oil consumption issue, should be resolved by now but some engines may not have gotten the fix.

Look for the first year of the 6 speed.  Might be 2010 in the 2500 series but check.  The 1500 didn't get the 6 speed that early I don't think.

Your intended tow weight does not need a 2500.  Some will tell you that overkill is good yet the 1500 platform will tow twice your anticipated weight without a problem.  You can even tow off the bumper at that weight but I'd not recommend it. 

If you want a truck, go to the other every forums, look under "tow vehicles" and read up. You may also want to consider a Tacoma or Frontier. As long as you get the V6 tow package. The Tacos were very softly sprung, again, go to a brand specific forum for the most accurate information.

 

[user 37446]

Info on truck 6 speeds from some random GM truck site:

Re: How to tell if a 1500 has a 6 speed transmission
Don't buy a 2008 as they were not in those trucks. Buy a 2010 up CC or E. Cab with 5.3L engine as the six-speed automatic was made standard. Not sure about Reg cabs but I think they were 6-sp also 2010+

2007 up Denali had the 6sp 6L80

Trans is not coded on the VIN. 

Shifter looks the same until the is on.  

Here is what the 6-sp dash reads, note "PRNDM", M stands for Manual shifting of the 6 sp. key on to see this. This is dash of 2010 GMC Sierra E cab

In 2010 anything with a 5.3, and up, had the 6 speed behind it. Only the 4.3 and 4.8's had the 4 speeds from 2010 on...
Before that only the Denali's and Vortec Maxx's had the 6 speed... And even then I think that was only 2009 maybe 2008...

 

[highdesertranger]

This World Isn't Home you got to make sure you get rid of all those links that have nothing to do with the response you cut and pasted that is considered spam. I will do it on this one but in the future you need to be more careful. highdesertranger

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Your intended tow weight does not need a 2500.  Some will tell you that overkill is good yet the 1500 platform will tow twice your anticipated weight without a problem. 

I would put this in the "Yes, But . . ." category.
If you're going to pull the trailer mostly around the great plains, certainly true.
If you're going to pull the trailer up and down the rocky mountains, I think I want the bigger brakes a 2500 certainly has.  ESPECIALLY if the trailer is so light it doesn't have trailer brakes . . .

 

[kaBLOOnie Boonster]

I would put this in the "Yes, But . . ." category.
If you're going to pull the trailer mostly around the great plains, certainly true.
If you're going to pull the trailer up and down the rocky mountains, I think I want the bigger brakes a 2500 certainly has.  ESPECIALLY if the trailer is so light it doesn't have trailer brakes . . .

Please take this in the jocular, half-teasing manner it is meant: no, no, NO, we are not discussing "which truck should I get?", or "diesel versus gasoline", or whether "truck X can pull trailer Y."

We are starting with the premise that tow vehicle cost and complexity have become ludicrous (and can only get worse). Rather than be discouraged or angry about something nobody can do anything about, what can we do to sneak around the problem, and outsmart the system.

 

[user 37446]

This World Isn't Home you got to make sure you get rid of all those links that have nothing to do with the response you cut and pasted that is considered spam.  I will do it on this one but in the future you need to be more careful.  highdesertranger

Oops, my mistake HDR, I had no idea the links weren't good.  Future quotes will just be the quote, I was also trying to give sources, I thought I read a mod saying that was my responsibility if I quote.

 

[John61CT]

Such a general premise / problem can only be addressed with specific solution proposals.

I think military surplus might be the way to go for you.

 

[user 37446]

I went on an RV forum and searched "best tow vehicle under $3,000" and the concensus was a 1990's Chevy 1/2 ton with a 5.7/350. The TBI 350 is durable, the 96 and newer Vortec has more power (redesign).

 

[user 37446]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"We are starting with the premise that tow vehicle cost and complexity have become ludicrous..."[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]O/P, I am trying to give you ideas on the least expensive tow vehicle that will satisfactorily perform the task you want, or at least claimed.  While gas vs diesel or GM vs Ford Vs Dodge can certainly be a rabbit trail, the point is than an older pre largely computerized gas powered v8 van or pickup is easily the least expensive to buy and keep running.  Even full sized v8 cars can do that, but the van or truck has much better payload for the tongue weight.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If you simply want to argue that vehicles cost too much and are too complex, then maybe forget about towing and find the Geo Metro or something...[/font]

 

[kaBLOOnie Boonster]

This World Isn't Home, I agree that large engines of the right generation (or era) is probably the best way to lower tow vehicle costs. I am guessing that smaller engines and smaller vehicles are false economy. And like you said, their payload is too limiting. And who wants to replace CV joints on front wheel drive 4 bangers?

My dates are a bit different than yours. I think late 90s to about 2010 is the sweet spot. The dates have to be jiggled a bit for different manufacturers. I won't even consider the more recent engines. Nor will I consider the lower ground clearance "Euro" inspired vans like the Promaster or Ford Transit. Those might be great for doing deliveries in Rome or Paris, but they aren't right for rough roads in the backcountry.