Is the road less traveled becoming a super highway?

[VanKitten]

I was very concerned about reports of large crowds at the RTR last year.   I felt somewhat reassured by the idea that the desert is large enough so that  a person could still have some privacy and attend.   

Now, I hear there were several hundred there last year.   Wow.   I have to wonder...if you are parked far enough away to avoid any crowd, are you still "attending" the RTR from that distance.   The video from the drone showed mile after mile of parked vehicles.  

So, considering all that...and keeping in mind that a great number of new people are hitting the road this year...in greater numbers than ever before.....are all the gatherings turning into a spread out version of burning man with the thousands of attendees?

Then too, I read and see the massive messes left by people all over BLM land everywhere.   Such large numbers of people destroying these places with trash.

It is looking very likely to me that in the near future it will be harder and harder to actually escape the crowds no matter where you want to be.   I read that many of the bLM lands are closed because of the environmental damages happening.  This trend could become more common as the number of people keeps increasing.

Am I a several years too late to be doing this expecting to find access with an RV to reasonable places to boondocks without my fellow man ruining it for me?    I do not have a vehicle that is all terrain.... rocks climbs and getting into the far back country isn't going to happen.   And what about the years to come as thousands more get clued into this lifestyle?

Does anyone else have this sinking feeling in their gut?

 

[sushidog]

It's a big country. True many are born every year, but many die too. The population growth is negative for native US citizens and only .7% overall. I guess the question is how many people are discovering this lifestyle and turning to it as an alternative to the "normal" daily grind? I think more and more people are forced into a mobile retirement, as I will be, but I think there's plenty of land to go around in the foreseeable future (as long as we are good stewards of the land) - at least in my lifetime. Now if you plan on living another 50+ years then all bets are off.

Not to be political but it seems that the real danger of losing the land comes not from overpopulation, nor a growing number of people choosing this lifestyle, but from government shutting off public access. Consider that there are radical environmental groups, like the Sierra Club and others who would like nothing better than to close all public land off to all vehicle access (if not all human access whatsoever) to protect the environment. And though their motives may be noble, it will hurt lots of us if they have their way. On the other side, we are at risk of the government lands being sold off or at least leased to private corporations for land development, potentially restricting access (or at least free access). So it appears we have opponents on both sides who threaten our way of life. Consider this carefully when you go to the polls. Choose your poison as they say.

Chip

 

[jonsun]

money wins

 

[Ballenxj]

Not to be political but it seems that the real danger of losing the land comes not from overpopulation, nor a growing number of people choosing this lifestyle, but from government shutting off public access. Consider that there are radical environmental groups, like the Sierra Club and others who would like nothing better than to close all public land off to all vehicle access (if not all human access whatsoever) to protect the environment.

By in large, one group trying to impose their own will and wants over another group has been a big problem for a long time. This is why van dwelling is so attractive as an effort to escape those types of traps and people.
The big question is, can we do it without one of those groups screwing us over?

 

[SoulRaven]

Now, I hear there were several hundred there last year.   Wow.   I have to wonder...if you are parked far enough away to avoid any crowd, are you still "attending" the RTR from that distance.   The video from the drone showed mile after mile of parked vehicles.  

Then too, I read and see the massive messes left by people all over BLM land everywhere.   Such large numbers of people destroying these places with trash.


Does anyone else have this sinking feeling in their gut?

I was told that there were roughly 700+ permits issued last year.  But that number is misleading.  I was far down the main road in a "cul-de-sac", if you will.  It was as far as you could go.  AT LEAST 5-10 of my neighbors, who were all very friendly, I might add, only stayed for 3 or 4 days.  Two guys I made good friends with only stayed one week.  There WERE a lot of people.  And if you get far enough away to have some breathing room,  your neighbor 100 yards away is probably attending the RTR.  So, yes, you ARE still attending, and you will probably go over to the main area occasionally for presentations and meetings. 

As far as trash goes, all I can say is that I have not seen it.  ESPECIALLY at the RTR.  Bob makes a daily point about trash, and people are pretty darn good about policing their area.  

You can join groups at the RTR that will be going to other places.  So, it's kinda like Woodstock!     You can join a commune! 
Mostly just kidding, but I think this "tribe" is accomplishing many of the goals of the Woodstock Nation.  Fellowship, caring, low environmental impact, getting out of the rat race.  Anyway, when I was there , there was a group going to Baja, Slab City, Ehrenbereg,  the Yuma area (lots of BLM land, as well as easier access to Algodones) , and several others my old head doesn't recall.  

I often have a sinking feeling in my gut, but that's because I love to take risks and do a lot of really dumb stuff.  As far as that relates to this lifestyle.... No, in fact, considering how many people are out of work these days, I believe it is growing.  Where I'm staying, there are a lot of cars just pulled off of the road, and people are sleeping in their cars.  Most of them were here when I got here, and will probably still be here when I leave.  And , also, I'm 65... how much longer does it HAVE to last?  I want to get in my chops while I still can.  

And nothing lasts forever.  As far as the West goes... this part of the world has been going through so many changes since Cortez landed in what is now Mexico.  To the natives of this area, stuff started changing a long time ago.  The West doesn't look anything like it did 200 , 150 , 100, 50 or 25 years ago.  Change IS the constant.  

So, I would say , use it while you still can, and do what you can to make it last.  

Regards,

Pat

 

[John61CT]

I think the "lifestyle" aspect will likely pass, or at least wax and wane like hemlines.

But looks like in the USA inequality will continue to grow, middle class will continue to hollow out, boomer geriatrics will have a lot of poverty and increased semi-homelessness.

Unless our government moves toward the "socialistic" safety net of the rest of the developed world, I think the vandwelling population will rise exponentially for those reasons.

 

[SoulRaven]

+1 ^^^^^^

 

[highdesertranger]

ah, don't get me started. highdesertranger

 

[sephson]

And then there are people like me. I spend most of the year in the sticks and bricks, 9 to whenever lifestyle and poke my toe in the nomadic, vehicle dwelling world when time permits.

I was able to make to the RTR this year for four, maybe five days. Ordinarily, I leave a campsite cleaner than I found it, but at the RTR I found that there wasn't much excess trash for me to pick up. My neighbors did an excellent job picking up after themselves. As for the size of the RTR, the larger community essentially broke down into smaller "neighborhoods", just without the association breathing down our necks. Everyone I met there was friendly and respectful, even when there were disagreements in the campfire discussions. Unlike in my normal, everyday, sticks and bricks life, I was able to have honest political discussions and walk away friends when all was said and done. There are a few new friends I'm still in regular contact with that I met at the RTR.

Granted, there is always cause for concern when a group grows in size, but realistically, other than a few outliers, I don't think the concerns for the future should be about the fulltime community growing too large, rather it should be about my demographic, the dabblers. A significant portion of the sticks and bricks community is so used to other people picking up after them wherever they go, that it doesn't even occur to them that out on BLM land in the desert, there is no cleaning crew to pick up their trash. I think you'll find though, that with very few exceptions, once it's pointed out to them that most will be happy to pick up after themselves and possibly even take a little extra out with them.

 

[deadwood]

I think that we think there are a lot of people living the nomadic lifestyle. And I'm sure it seems that way when a bunch of like minded people get together for something like the RTR. Youtube has changed the perception a lot as well. There are so many you tubers doing videos of their van or rv life that it seems like everyone is doing it.

But percentage wise I think it is such a small number as to be insignificant. I think we are just so much more aware of it because we live it. So we talk to like minded people on forums. We recognize people like us on the road. But I think for most of the population they are just going about their everyday lives in the rat race. Of all my regular friends that I have known for quite a while not a single one would even think about van life. If I tell them what I'm planning they look at me like I have a third eye.

I do agree that there are a lot of people being forced into living in a vehichle. But I also think that the homeless problem in the country is getting close to the tipping point. I don't know what the answer is because the problem is so complex. Maybe more and more will be forced into living in their car or van. I hope not but it looks more like it every day.

I think that for those that choose the nomadic lifestyle it will be a great way to live for a long time to come. Even with all the cities trying to stop people living in vans and RV's. If you keep your van clean. If you respect the area you are in. If you keep a low profile. There will always be a lot more people living in vans and such then we will ever know because they keep a low profile and are just not noticed.

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

The internet has tricked people into thinking this country (and the world for that matter) is much much much much much smaller than it is. And that if a certain activity keeps becoming an issue it will cease to exist. This country is HUGE and there will always be a way to live a nomadic lifestyle within it. If there was a way to eliminate fringe segments of society there would be no drug dealers, no murderers, no thieves, no con artists, no bad cops, no underage drinking, no homeless people, no prostitutes, no gangs, no illegal gambling, dog fighting, tax cheats, etc etc etc. You can't regulate people or activities out of existence in one little city, let alone the entire country.

 

[SoulRaven]

As to the size and significance, I have to agree.  Most of the people I know who AREN'T nomads, find it kind of quaint.  
I am absolutely in the minority, and about the only person they know who IS a nomad.  

So, good points, Deadwood and ERLH.  We are less than .0001 % of the total population.  At least in my estimation. 

Pat

 

[tx2sturgis]

A Super Highway?

More like a 'wormhole' to the Delta Quadrant.

Ensign Kim, chart a course.

 

[Rtavious]

I was there as well with different experience. I wasnt in the thick of tje crowd but on fringe. I showed up on 2nd day of rtr by the 4rth day i found couple piles of human crap including tp behind bush maybe 300 feet from my camp. I packed up and left. Probably be last time I attend.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[rvwandering]

More people are buying RVs and more people are living in their vehicles. The vast majority of both of these groups  are not part of the CRVLing demographic. The RV group wants full hookups and all of the ammenities of a private campground. The group living in their vehicles, not out of desire but because they have no other option, need to stay close to a city for all of the available services. Both groups have caused overcrowding but not very much where you'll want to be.  However there have been changes because of both of these groups.

Many Walmarts now have "no overnight RV parking" signs. This is due to both RVers who take up too many parking spaces and vehicle dwellers who stay for long periods of time.  Some cities have banned RVs from parking on the streets during certain hours or even 24 hours. Unofficial overnight parking areas near cities now have signs forbidding it.  Whenever you get far enough away from the most popular and populated places the signs are mostly absent and you'll have much more leeway if you want to park in a city.

The growth in RV travel has made in hard to get a campsite in large national parks or public campgrounds in areas where tourists want to visit. Even boondocking spots near these places can get too crowed. Stay a bit farther away, visit in off season if that is possible and you'll be okay.

The easiest way to avoid a crowd is to chose a spot on BLM or forest land that is not near a large city or a well known attraction. There are vast areas of public land where nobody camps. They are not hard to find and you'll have no problem getting to them in your RV.  If you want a peaceful campsite they're great but if you need to be close to all of services of a large city then they might not work for you.

The RTR has changed over the years. When it was smaller it was easy to get to know almost everyone but now you'll probably get to know the people who are camping around you but not many of the other participants unless you specifically seek them out. If you don't like where you are camped, move to another area. Most of the problems at last year's RTR were caused by people new to the whole idea and they did not know or understand the basic "rules" of camping on public land. We were almost the last people to leave and the gathering site was spotless.

Bob Wells tends to draw a crowd. :-D  We've gone to several of the GTGs organized by CRVLing members and all of them were small and loosely organized. People get together and just hang out in the morning, evening, sometimes all day. If you need quiet time by yourself that's okay. A few people may take a trip to an interesting attraction or go out to eat. Very low key.

Hope you make it to the RTR! Stay as long as you like and stay wherever you felel comfortable but you should come and see what it's all about.

 

[jimindenver]

The farther away from the main fire pit the looser it became. Less than a mile away I had a clearing the size of a parking lot all to myself and drove in to participate. It loosened up even more after people started to spread out and others left after making their appearances. When I did move back in I took a spot close to the entrance and had a nice buffer between me and those around me. So really it is up to you as far as how crowded it is around you. You can have the hustle and bustle of the main fire pit or be completely isolated within walking distance.

 

[Reno]

I, too have a sinking feeling in my gut in regards to this years RTR. Went to Summer RTR in 2013 in Flagstaff with around 50 others. The next Summer RTR was closed down due to overpopulation.

Seeing the drone shots of Quartzite 2017 reminded me very much of Burning Man in its earlier days. Good luck to you introverts not desirous of appearing in YouTube "documentaries" or all-night raves.

Speaking of YouTube: I believe the tone of the forum and the RTR has changed since Bob decided to make use of the platform to promote the lifestyle, and not for the better.

Best wishes to the thousands of you planning to travel to this years event by van, RV, truck camper, travel trailer, or family sedan.

Hope the weather is fine and you meet many "friendlies"!

 

[TrainChaser]

When you go to a Red Hat Society meeting, you see a lot of red hats.

 

[Svenn]

It's a big country. True many are born every year, but many die too. The population growth is negative for native US citizens and only .7% overall. 

Chip

You omit the non-natives though, who are exploding in population.  Canada for instance recently became the first country in history to be on track to voluntarily displace its population with people from somewhere else:  80% of Canadians will be non-native within a century. 50% of Londoners now, in 2017, were born outside the UK.  

Of course it's unlikely that the non-native demographic in the US will spread out to the BLM lands in vans, but it is something to keep in mind.

 

[John61CT]

I didn't think native Americans were that significant statistically, think we're all at least 98% invader/immigrants?