Gizmo or battery alternative?

[Vagabound]

Hi,

Ran across an article about a device like this a few times recently.  Take a look:

Kohler enCube
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec.../?mag=pop&list=nl_pnl_news&src=nl&date=091016

I'm mostly interested to know if this is just the latest whiz-bang, over-priced gizmo that isn't worth much serious attention (removable from my "crap to think about" list), or whether it might be a real contender to replace vehicle house batteries?  Firsthand experience, wild conjecture, pros and cons, yada yada.

Thanks.

Vagabound

 

[jimindenver]

They are a battery, a inverter and some charging ports. You have to recharge it by plugging it in or via solar panel so it may have a PWM charge controller too. For what they want you can assemble the components that fit your needs for less money or much more capacity.

 

[SternWake]

I made a more powerful 'generator' last year for a friend using a Lifeline 125Ah group31 AGM battery, a 45 amp charger, but employed only a 400 watt pure sine wave inverter. It has 2 12v receptacles and a 2.1 amp USB output in addition to one 350 amp powepole receptacle and several 45 amp powerpole receptacles.

That Lifeline GPL-31XT battery had when new, a total of 1500 watt hours. 125x12.
It employed ammeters to display charging amps and battery voltage, and amp hour counter for the loads. I could easily make a better one.



It weighs some 90 to 100 Lbs though, the battery alone is 78Lbs.

Granted the parts including those to charge rapidly ( 100+ amps) from alternator were more than 1200$, not including my labor to design it put it all together in a compact package as possible.

Wonder what battery they use in these, but they are no generator, it does not make electricity, It stores and releases it and then some other generator, whether solar or the grid's generator or alternator are required to recharge it.

Beware of marketing. It is no generator, it is a mediocre battery with mediocre electrical lowest bidder parts in a nice looking package with a professional marketing team only slightly constrained by the lawyers in what they are allowed to print and claim.

My power pack will easily outperform and outcycle and outlast it, but for the 1200 watt inverter, which their battery could not power at a 1200 watt load for more than a few minutes anyway, making that claim near useless.

It should be noted that the AGM batteries when deeply cycled require high amp recharges for best longevity, a 100 watt solar panel will not keep the battery happy for many hundreds of deep cycles, it will lose capacity and take longer and longer to reach full charge of that remaining capacity.



If they employ 1200 watt hours of lithium battery in there then there is also a 'recommended' minimum charge rate required to keep the battery happy for enough cycles. But 1200 watt hours of lifepo4 battery would outperform 1500 watt hours of Top quality lead acid AGM,

But for that price, I doubt it is lifepo4.

I think about making custom versions of these with various components sometimes.

I'd hate to have to deal with the average modern consumer. Lead acid batteries are so easily killed by improper usage, I don;t understand how any retailer can actually warranty batteries for any usage but for engine starting.

I mean a newbie could drain a battery to 9 volts, let it sit there overdischarged for a month, start screaming harrumph in various pitches when the battery refuses to recharge, and demand a new battery under warranty and claim they treated it as described in the instructions.

no thanks

 

[ccbreder]

That sounds like what many of us have built in our RV or van. Except, in general, ours are larger and have more energy capacity.

 

[LeeRevell]

Ignoring the article's poor grammar, and the fact that a battery is NOT a "generator", it seems to be of limited usefulness for anything more than a few hours, depending on load. A good deep cycle battery still is better for van and RV use.

 

[blars]

If they employ 1200 watt hours of lithium battery in there then there is also a 'recommended' minimum charge rate required to keep the battery happy for enough cycles. But 1200 watt hours of lifepo4 battery would outperform 1500 watt hours of Top quality lead acid AGM,

Please give a reference to the "minimum charge rate required" for LiFePO4. I've been researching them for years, using them for 2.5 years, and have never seen that. I rarely charge at over 25A for a 260Ah pack. Rule of thumb for house battery use is 1/2 the Ah of lead-acid.

 

[Vagabound]

OK.  At the end of the day, isn't that thing just a battery with attached doodads, and various holes for the attachment of further doodads?

If so, I guess the attraction is that you don't have to hunt down all the right doodads and build it yourself.

Beyond that, there's cost.  We've had one commenter say that DIY is cheaper, and another explain a more expensive, similar DIY project.  The difference between those two assessments might be due to apples vs. oranges.  Namely, if someone skilled built the identical thing (spec-wise) DIY, maybe it would be cheaper; whereas the more expensive DIY example in here resulted in a more powerful unit.

On the right track?

Vagabound

 

[Oberneldon]

Lithium batteries have different charge rates. If LiFePo4 many complete batteries have circuits to protect over charging, low voltage cut-out, etc. some circuits have cell balancing that requires the battery to sit to balance for 30 minutes after charging (can't use under load while charging) Other circuits used do not have cell balancing and protection but can have a load while charging. Each of these circuit boards have a maximum charge rate.

Therefore, lithium batteries used in a gizmos should not be assumed to have a specific charge rate. As lithium may have different chemistry and may have charge circuits.

Brent

 

[highdesertranger]

how can they even call that a generator? it doesn't generate a thing. I saw this last week on a different site and they were saying how wonderfully clean this was. they didn't even mention that you need to charge it. at least the Popular Mechanics article said you need to add solar panels. all that is, is a battery and invertor with some plugs added. highdesertranger

 

[ccbreder]

It is just a battery pack. It should not be called a generator. It doesn't generate any thing, it just stores. The one from lowes cost $1000, probley contains sealed lead acid batteries of some sort. The other, coming soon, that is like a wish-there-was item, will have lithium batteries, $2000.
Let's see, 1400 watts continuous, is about 12 amps at 120 volts. 1200 watt hours means it will run a standard 120 volt appliance for less than one hour.
Two golf cart batteries are about 230 amp hours, that is 11 amps per hour 12 volt. 138 watts per hour for 20 hours. or 2750 watts for one hour. rather less if you figure efficiency. But still impressive compared to that fool thing.

 

[jimindenver]

On the extremely simplified..e version of this, before we had whole house 120v we kept a sealed 35 Ah gel cell under the table with a cigarette plug and a 150w inveter connected. That kept the cell phones up, a few movies on a 9 inch portable DVD player and a radio playing for up to 10 days without recharging. It couldn't run a 15 inch TV/ DVD player more than a few movies but it was great at the low power stuff.

 

[SternWake]

Please give a reference to the "minimum charge rate required" for LiFePO4.  I've been researching them for years, using them for 2.5 years, and have never seen that.  I rarely charge at over 25A for a 260Ah pack.  Rule of thumb for house battery use is 1/2 the Ah of lead-acid.

Sorry brain fart, I was thinking of lithium cylindrical cells, not Lifepo4 prismatic cells.

The advised charge rate of an Energy Cell is between 0.5C and 1C

For newbs that means a 10 AH capacity battery would be advised to be be charged with an initial rate of 5 to 10 amps

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

It really is a joke and in insult that the Kohler and goal zero are marketed as 'generators.'

The thing I built I just called a power pack, and the owner loves the capability of the thing. 

The 1200 watt hour claim of the Kohler is likely a group 27 AGM battery  which can be had for as little as ~180$
A 1500 watt MSW inverter is about the same.
Those are the guts of The Kohler.

They don't say what amperage charger they use. or if they did I did not pay attention, but the automatic PD9245 amp charger/converter I used in my powerpack is also about 180$ (The 45 amp charge rate is higher than the ~30 amp maximum recommended charge rate of a low end 100AH AGM battery.)

Throw in another 180$ of incidentals such as the outlets and usb ports and wiring fuses, and the molded casing, and the profit on these sold at 1100$ is vast.

Throw in buying the items in bulk, and chinese slave wage labor, and these lying  dishonest SOBS would make a killing, and the users of them would drain the batteries all the way not knowing they should only really use 50% of those 1200 watt hours/ 50Ah of capacity.  That the technology inside was not modern even in the 90's.

Scumbags.

 

[Oberneldon]

SW, Yes! It is a shame to see these products mislead people. One such product has a small solar panel with it for charging. It would take forever to recharge a depleted or modestly depleted battery in one of these units. They need to be plugged to charge the battery based on usage.

Your proposal for making your own is absolutely the way to go.

Brent

 

[Vagabound]

...

It really is a joke and in insult that the Kohler and goal zero are marketed as 'generators.'

...

Throw in buying the items in bulk, and chinese slave wage labor, and these lying  dishonest SOBS would make a killing, and the users of them would drain the batteries all the way not knowing they should only really use 50% of those 1200 watt hours/ 50Ah of capacity.  That the technology inside was not modern even in the 90's.

Scumbags.

Well, that about sums it up! ;-)

I knew from the beginning that it was a battery, not a generator, but took them to mean that you could get power from it in remote places like a generator, thus the name.  No further explanation of that needed.

The disappointing part to me isn't that the product is sub-standard.  It's that Kohler put their name on it.  I've always thought of them as a good company with high-quality products.  I guess that "buying by brand name" is one more anachronism that I have to fully purge from my head.  There are mostly just products from China, with everyone else's names on them.  Lipstick on a pig.  

Vagabound

 

[blars]

(quoting an article about li-ion batteries)
The advised charge rate of an Energy Cell is between 0.5C and 1C

They forgot the word "maximum" between advised and charge. The only minimum is the self-discharge rate, which is much lower on any lithium than lead-acid. Determining end of charge is harder at lower charge rates. Battery life is longer at lower charge rate, as also mentioned in that article.

 

[SternWake]

I'll defer to you on Lifepo4 Blars.

My only experience with lithium is with 14500 and 18650 cylindrical cells, none with Lifepo4, other than my phone and camera batteries, if those are Lifepo4 and not Lithium polymer.

Battery University is well written but not always 100% accurate concerning lead acid, in my opinion.

I said a while back my current Northstar AGM battery is my last lead Acid battery, in favor of Lifepo4, but perhaps not. I can finally closely approach Ideal on the lead acid, and its performance/ capacity retainment is impressive when near ideal recharging is achieved. Perhaps Lifepo4 will be more initially affordable when I need a new battery, whenever that might be.

No time soon is my Edu mun cated guess.

 

[SternWake]

 I guess that "buying by brand name" is one more anachronism that I have to fully purge from my head.  There are mostly just products from China, with everyone else's names on them.  Lipstick on a pig.  

Vagabound

The executives of the well known brand names seem to apparently have no option but to offshore everyting, cut quality, and increase marketing, or go completely out of business.

Seems so shortsighted, or planned, conspiracy theory like.

They've No fear of awaking the  sleeping tiger anymore

Sad.  
The greatest generation  that made up that sleeping Tiger, must be ashamed.

 

[Vagabound]

The executives of the well known brand names seem to apparently have no option but to offshore everyting, cut quality, and increase marketing, or go completely out of business.

Seems so shortsighted, or planned, conspiracy theory like.

They've No fear of awaking the  sleeping tiger anymore

Sad.  
The greatest generation  that made up that sleeping Tiger, must be ashamed.

Is the tiger China?  Or maybe WWII-era Americans? And who must be ashamed?  Sorry, got lost.

========

I was starting to wonder if you battery-heads were going to notice that the thread had a theme! ;-)

We mostly answered it anyway, so just pulling your leg.

Seeing as how we're talking about general battery crap, let's try this one:  

Despite being generally and mechanically capable, I feel like every time I hear people talking about batteries, there are only two groups.  Group 1 - "What happens if I lick the one with the little plus sign?"  and Group 2:  "The nano-gigs convolute the reduced influx charging rate, but only ...".  There doesn't seem to be a Group 3 for people like me who just want to learn practical battery stuff, but are a couple of levels above Group 1.  The basics:  What to buy?  Why?  How to do care and feeding (not expert optimization)?  How to avoid killing the system?  You know, the basics.  And the explanations being basic enough that average folks can comprehend them vs. feeling forced to give up and contemplate candles as the only viable alternative.

This isn't something that any of you need to fix, it's just me bitching and wondering out loud how to fix that without reading every stinkin' post on Battery University or wherever.

Vagabound

 

[LeeRevell]

I look at how much "bang for the buck" I can get from any battery. Amp hours vs. price. This "power supply" is rated in "watt hours", useless without having to do a unit conversion. But I suspect it is limited in capacity compared to a good deep cycle battery. For the money, and for sheer "usefulality", I will stay with what I know. I already have a portable unit, in a modified marine battery box. Heavier maybe, but very useful for a lot less money. Use the savings for gas money to travel.

 

[ccbreder]

I don't know, but it seems clear. Buy sets of golf cart batteries if you are serious about using energy. Once you learn to care for your batteries, plan to up-grade to sealed acid or even LiFePo if you can afford. If your energy needs are low, get a 12 volt marine hybrid and eventually learn you need golf carts. Get a solar panel, at least 100 watt, better to cover all the space you can on your roof. Get a smart charger if you can ever plug into the grid or have a generator. The trick is to put back int the battery the energy you use from the battery. Get inverters if you plan to use 120 volt anything. Pure sine wave are best. Yes they are! You can have more than one. Smaller for smaller appliances and a larger one. I have a 2000 watt because I need a microwave. I have a 100 watt to charge my lap top. Get anything you need so it uses 12 volts directly if you can. I have a 12 volt refrigerator. Reduce your energy use as best you can. All my bulbs are LED. When you post leave out as much punctuation and grammar stuff you can as it really pisses the up tight folks and they need the adrenaline release. use a lot of obscure words and complicated terminology. You will soon be known as an expert even if you D-K-S.