Diesel vs. Gas

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Hey Grant,

If you've got 20 minutes, take a look at this video:



You might extract some useful information from his rant . . .

Regards
John

 

[29chico]

Yeah, am going back and forth on this one, Bob. On the one hand, computerized diesels can easily run wood gas or biodiesel. Older ones require engine modifications to allow adjustment of injector pressure or to just turn them off at the right time. On the other hand, older ones are easier and cheaper to work on. But then again, older ones both have more miles on them and were made to looser tolerances with older materials, so they are much more likely to need to be worked on. And, of course, older ones are cheaper to get in the first place, with price differences sometimes enough to cover the cost of a remanufactured engine.

Wait... I think I just talked myself into getting an older one. I gotta stop listening when I am talking to myself. [emoji6]

So, what are the last year's Ford, Chevy, and GMC put non-computerized diesel engines into van chassis?

How does one easily  run a modern diesel on wood gas?

 

[Ballenxj]

Wait... I think I just talked myself into getting an older one. I gotta stop listening when I am talking to myself. [emoji6]

So, what are the last year's Ford, Chevy, and GMC put non-computerized diesel engines into van chassis?

As long as you're getting the right answers, talking to yourself can be OK. 

Dodge Cummins Turbo engines have been a front runner for me. A guy I know buys only 93 or older as they have non computerized injectors.
I guess 89 was the first year?  http://www.trucktrend.com/cool-trucks/1102dp-the-first-5-9l-powered-ram-pickup/
At least I learned something from him.

 

[GrantRobertson]

How does one easily  run a modern diesel on wood gas?

You pipe the woodgas into the air intake and the sensors and computer automatically adjusts. It is just a happy accident of the way the system is designed. The more actual fuel in the woodgas, the less diesel injected. So you can fire up your wood gas generator and then start the engine on diesel and take off. When the woodgas generator starts generating woodgas the computer automatically reduced the diesel injected.

You do get less power out of woodgas but it is enough to get you down the road. I can only assume that if you mash the gas pedal, the system will inject more diesel and you won't even notice the lack of power.

 

[highdesertranger]

I believe on GM's 1992 was the last year for non computerized. I thought wood gas was a gasoline engine substitute. also many of the older diesels run biodiesel, on the GM's I think the biggest mode is to run the military injection pump or have yours rebuilt to mil spec, because all the wear parts internally are harden or chrome plated. waste motor oil/tranny fluid is also a major alternative fuel. highdesertranger

 

[29chico]

You pipe the woodgas into the air intake and the sensors and computer automatically adjusts. It is just a happy accident of the way the system is designed. The more actual fuel in the woodgas, the less diesel injected.  So you can fire up your wood gas generator and then start the engine on diesel and take off. When the woodgas generator starts generating woodgas the computer automatically reduced the diesel injected.

You do get less power out of woodgas but it is enough to get you down the road. I can only assume that if you mash the gas pedal, the system will inject more diesel and you won't even notice the lack of power.

Interesting in theory.  Have you considered the implications that feeding an unregulated volume of hydrocarbon fuel into a diesel engine might cause?  A diesel engine has no throttle plate to regulate is speed and power output.   Earth moving equipment that damages a natural gas pipeline have been known to "run away" and have the diesel engine destroyed by excessive RPMs.  Old school Detroit Diesel engines that were installed on earthmovers often had an emergency intake air shutoff system installed for this very reason.

So you would need a throttle at the output of the wood gasifier and the usual accelerator pedal that varies the amount of liquid fuel injected.  Not a simple design.   Even more fun would be had trying to drive a rig with two "throttles" in traffic.

 

[highdesertranger]

ok so you are still using diesel as the primary fuel. when I hear wood gas I think of England during WWII. so your thinking along the lines of propane injection. so where did you hear you could do this on a computer controlled diesel. got a link? most of the alternate fuel diesels I have read about are using the old mechanical injection motors. highdesertranger

 

[GrantRobertson]

Interesting in theory.  Have you considered the implications that feeding an unregulated volume of hydrocarbon fuel into a diesel engine might cause?  A diesel engine has no throttle plate to regulate is speed and power output.   Earth moving equipment that damages a natural gas pipeline have been known to "run away" and have the diesel engine destroyed by excessive RPMs.  Old school Detroit Diesel engines that were installed on earthmovers often had an emergency intake air shutoff system installed for this very reason.

So you would need a throttle at the output of the wood gasifier and the usual accelerator pedal that varies the amount of liquid fuel injected.  Not a simple design.   Even more fun would be had trying to drive a rig with two "throttles" in traffic.

Well, not having done it myself, I can only tell you what was written by others who have done it. Now woodgas contains far less energy per unit volume than natural gas or propane. And there is a bit of backwards resistance in a woodgas generator, so the engine has to actually suck the woodgas out of the generator. Finally, the woodgas is actually being generated as it is being used. If the engine were to start reving too high it would just start sucking air through the generator faster than it could generate fuel, thus thinning the mixture. So it is self regulating.

It's a bit of a moot point now because I have decided to go with an older engine. When I do start experimenting with woodgas, I will have to add some valves to manually restrict the injection of diesel, but I figure that will still be cheaper than the purchase and ongoing cost of owning a computerized diesel. Besides, it will be years before I even start messing with it.

 

[T.he I.nvisible M.an]

Most people are afraid of the unknown ...

Working on ANY computerized engine is no big deal IF you have all the right tools and service information at your finger tips.

In fact in most cases it is actually easier, faster and more direct if their is a computer on the Engine as the computer will tell you what is going on then you can access the service manual to run down the problem.

Betty uses a Cummins 5.9 liter 150hp Natural Gas Engine so I am VERY familiar with Cummins.

I now have about 6 years under my belt working on Betty with ZERO outside help.

Here is the formula for success in dealing with ANY computerized engine (and I will use Cummins as an Example).

I can and have worked on most all of the other Brand names at one point and time. The basic concept is the same for each manufacturer is pretty much the same.

1.) You need a computer to talk to the computer onboard your engine. (any laptop will do)
For my laptop I am using a maxed out Dell Precision M6700.

2.) You need a program to run inside your computer (laptop) that will perform what ever tests you need done.
The Program for Cummins is called "INSITE" I am using Version 7.x as v8.x has turned into a subscription based model.
You don't need 8.x unless you are looking to service 2015 and beyond. Below is a screen capture of my Cummins Insite 7.x running on my laptop. My Cummins Insite 7.x is fully unlocked with all the bells and whistles enabled with no expiration date.



3.) You need an interface That runs between your computer and the engine computer.

 

[wagoneer]

I had a 1986 GMC with the 6.2 That was a great motor pulled my then 22 ft airstream from here to eternity. The 7.3 has been a loyal beast since the injectors were changed. The 2005 Jetta TDI is a super little oil burner.

 

[masterplumber]

'94 was the last non-computerized year for Ford. For pickups that is the year ot get, as it was also the first year of the turbocharged 7.3. prior to that the 7.3 was naturally aspirated. I'm not sure if they put the turbo in the vans prior to the '95 Power Stroke. There were many aftermarket turbos available back in the day however. ATS, the company that still builds performance parts and transmissions for diesel trucks, made a great kit for the 6.9 and 7.3 liter engines. I had a 6.9 liter F350 with one of their turbos on it. It still worked great with close to 200K on it.

The 7.3 naturally aspirated motor is actually pretty good without a turbo for what you plan. My son bought a beat up early '90s pickup with one as a commuter. It had plenty of power, at least running empty, and it got in the low 20 MPGs.

 

[Ballenxj]

'94 was the last non-computerized year for Ford. For pickups that is the year ot get, as it was also the first year of the turbocharged 7.3. 

IIRC, Ford used International Diesel engines in the beginning, and all the way up to just before they brought out their own Powerstroke Diesel.
The non turbo International engines were not power houses, but were reputed to be as reliable as an anvil.

 

[GrantRobertson]

ok so you are still using diesel as the primary fuel. when I hear wood gas I think of England during WWII. so your thinking along the lines of propane injection. so where did you hear you could do this on a computer controlled diesel. got a link? most of the alternate fuel diesels I have read about are using the old mechanical injection motors. highdesertranger

Sorry, HDR, I didn't keep that link. But it seemed to come from an experienced member of a forum and was backed up by several others. I read it a couple of years ago.

 

[masterplumber]

The Powerstrokes were originally also made by International also. Ford didn't make there own until the current generation 6.7 liter. For many parts on my 7.3 liter truck I would go to the International dealer as they were significantly cheaper.

 

[darude]

One additional reason I am considering diesel is the increased options for alternative fuels. Diesels can use biodiesel and can be modified to take vegetable oil.

I am also very interested in wood gas. I have read that the computers in modern diesels automatically adjust if you start piping wood gas into the intake, with no modifications necessary. The more wood gas you pump in, the less diesel is injected.

the new diesels can't be modified to run on veg oil. and from my understanding the sprinter vans can't be converted over to run on veg oil because of the fuel pump and injectors are delicate. but in my opinion there POS . I have an 1982 300D that runs off veg oil belive me it's a beautifull thing not having to waste money at the fuel pump when that money could go for more usefull things :idea:  . I don't know if you ever got your veggie mobile but one of the side effects is that you might get the munchies from smelling the exhaust while driving   and evevery one will be passing you   while your going down the freeway smelling like a doughnut stop . Mexican and Italian resturants are the best source for used oil!! I have also noticed that since I have been running on veg oil the engine is quiter and sometime it has more tourque and HP than running on diesel