BLM: Deep sand, tight spaces, hills, and scouting

[tsilb]

I went out this weekend to do some boondocking in some BLM land near Moab and Dinosaur NM. Some of these areas don't have Street View and only barely show you anything on satellite. Turns out some of the roads were pretty rough, even though they look perfectly safe from space.

Two of them near Dinosaur were a couple feet lower than the surrounding land, for reasons I can't imagine. Like they were dug straight down. The roads were of loose sand. I actually got spooked and left because the sand was deep enough in a few places I got briefly stuck. Even worse, my van is 20' long and the sunken area was only about 22' wide. Combined with a lack of traction, that scared the crap outta me.  Luckily I was able to get to a part of the "road" that had big rocks my tires could grab onto. If I had put anything on my towing hitch, I would've had to unhitch the whole setup. I want to stick some things back there like a generator, propane tank, extra fuel, and maybe a bear-proof garbage container. That'd be a lot of work just to turn around.

Thankfully my wife was with me and she knew I have a better chance of getting over the deep sand if I get a running start. Imagine a giant white cargo van rocking back and forth, and getting a running start, uphill, in deep sand, in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure it would have been quite a humorous sight for any more experienced folks, had there been any around. Not a great first experience!

Another place near Moab had a perfectly driveable road, but it had a low spot that intersected what was clearly a dry riverbed. But it was muddy and it had rained recently. Paranoid as I am, I decided it was too likely to get me stuck on the other side, and I had to leave the next day. So I left that spot too. This really sucked, as we could see what appeared to be a brown camping sign only a few hundred feet further.

I tried an actual BLM campground just outside Canyonlands NP, but I got really spooked when the entire "road" slanted about 30 degrees down to the left, and the slanted part was muddy. If I rolled there, the terrain would have directed me into a very long, rocky, and deep canyon!

I found a few more BLM campgrounds near Moab that seemed more trustworthy (smoother roads), but they were pretty packed since it was a holiday weekend. Also they were sand and dirt and rain was likely. I don't know how to get a RWD cargo van out of a mud pit, so I got spooked and left again. Someone tell me these places aren't all like this! Am I just being too paranoid?

I freaked out and gave up. Ended up sleeping at a Pilot Travel Center, which was pretty nice. Noisy, but free and with amenities. But I don't want this to be a regular thing; I want to get out there.

We'll have a second vehicle (An SUV with a "sand mode" specifically meant for this stuff), but for all I know it'll have the same trouble.  I had never driven on sand before, and now I'm starting to want to avoid sand entirely.

1. How do you deal with rain when driving on these sand and dirt roads?
2. How do you decide whether you can "trust" a given road, especially when it's not wide enough to turn around? Do you scout the roads? How? How far? I'm finding a road will be gravel for 1000' and then turn to a mixture of sand and very fine dirt; but by the time I figure this out, it's hard to turn around.
3. I see a lot of roadside pulloffs and campgrounds on BLM land. Is it better just to look for these areas instead of going deep into the backcountry? How did you get over the uncertainty of these roads?
4. How much do off-road tires help on sand, very fine dirt, and mud? Do they make off-road tires for cargo vans?

 

[highdesertranger]

hi and welcome first off go to the newcomers corner and introduce yourself. now I will try to answer your questions.

1. in the backcountry when it rains you stay put don't try to drive out especially if the local area is high in clay, until the roads dry a little bit. this is when you need to be prepared and have the water and food to stick it out a few days.
NOTE, sand is actually easier to drive on when wet, it compacts and gives you traction without digging in.
2. this will come with experience. I can turn my 23 foot truck around on a 8 foot wide road. you got to know what your doing, practice makes perfect.
NOTE, you must not care about scratching your paint or slamming your bumper into a rock or the side of a mountain. sheet metal damage is optional.
3. on BLM land you can camp anywhere unless prohibited you don't need to go to a campground. same with National Forest.
4. off road tires help tremendously. however more important is airing your tires down. however you must be able to air back up before driving on pavement. they make off road tires for almost anything. if you plan on driving off road you need a high weight rating tire like a load range E. nowadays it's almost impossible to find an E rated tires for anything under a 16 inch wheel.
couple of more tips,
1. start off slow and easy, if you are unsure don't do it.
2. try to go with an experienced person until you are comfortable driving off road.
3. if you ever get stuck or break down off road DO NOT try to walk out for help cross country, stay with your vehicle
4. carry a good spare, sooner or later you will need it. I carry 2 because sooner or later you will need 2 if you go out far enough
5. always start with a full tank of gas and plenty of water, I cannot stress this enough.
6. many backcountry areas have no as in zero cell service, plan accordingly
7. from my experience most electronic maps are useless in the backcountry there are a few good ones but for the most part no.
I could go on and on but for now that's enough. ask as many questions as you want there a lot of great people here that will try to help you out. highdesertranger

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

HDR is probably king of off road advice around here so I can't top the advice he gave you, other than to say experience is how you get comfortable getting off the beating track. And there's absolutely no way around it, to gain experience will inevitably result with you getting stuck. However, getting stuck then gains you more experience.....you learn how to get unstuck. And ultimately, you soon enjoy getting off the beating path whether you get stuck or not because you know you can get yourself out.

Just as a quick example on experience. I did a trip to Hawaii with my brother and we rented a Jeep. I was able to bring the Jeep places in 2wd that he couldn't make it to in 4wd. It was his first time ever driving on real world off road trails and i'd already been doing it for 15 years, started the day I got my license.

Youtube videos are also your friend, you can watch some real world scenarios of people getting stuck and then unstuck.

 

[rvwandering]

Great tips from HDR - he really is the king of off road advice.

Where you've been traveling was a sea millions of years ago so the sand is deep and loose over much of the area. In some places mud is in the mix which becomes very slippery when wet. If you see a sign that says "impassable when wet" believe it!

The good news is there are many roads in other desert areas and through forests that are hard and firm so you won't have to worry as much. Just be careful when driving off of a solid road into a boondocking spot. It's a good idea to check on foot first to make sure that what looks firm really is.

Google satellite view is helpful to a point. After you're more experienced at driving on remote roads you'll be able to tell more about the condition of the roads by checking satellite view. I look at street view where the road takes off from a paved road which doesn't always help much, then I look for deep ruts, washed out areas, and large spots to turn around. I'm still wrong a good deal of the time so I have a backup camping spot in mind. We've also had to literally back up more than once.

We rarely drive more than 5 miles on dirt roads to get to a boondocking site so we're not experienced at really remote camping. We often use the close in roadside pull offs as long as they're fairly quiet and far enough away from the road to avoid dust from traffic. Try camping at some of these and then walk in to check out the road conditions. Also use freecampsites.net as a scouting help. Road information is included in many of the write ups.

And welcome to the forums!

 

[rvpopeye]

Welcome aboard tsilb!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

1. How do you deal with rain when driving on these sand and dirt roads?
2. How do you decide whether you can "trust" a given road, especially when it's not wide enough to turn around? Do you scout the roads? How? How far? I'm finding a road will be gravel for 1000' and then turn to a mixture of sand and very fine dirt; but by the time I figure this out, it's hard to turn around.
3. I see a lot of roadside pulloffs and campgrounds on BLM land. Is it better just to look for these areas instead of going deep into the backcountry? How did you get over the uncertainty of these roads?
4. How much do off-road tires help on sand, very fine dirt, and mud? Do they make off-road tires for cargo vans?

First, I would strongly encourage you to check with the BLM or Forest Service web site for information before you go into an area.  Or better yet, visit their office and talk to a ranger.  You can get a lot of good information that way.

To your questions:

1. Rain > Southern Utah is the only place I have found that you absolutely cannot drive on dirt roads if they are wet.  They are teflon tires on butter slippery.  Sit until they dry out.  As HDR mentioned sand actually compacts if wet and is usually solid to drive on.  Loam (decayed vegetation) will not support a vehicle if waterlogged, you can get buried up to your axles.  Gravel and rocks can be slippery but usually passible if wet.

2. Trust > Experience, as ERLH stated.   If I don't know what is ahead I get out and walk.  If I am uncomfortable I don't go there.  I have walked a mile, returned to the truck, driven a mile, got out and walked again; I'm not in a hurry.
As HDR said, learn to turn around on an 8 ft road.  Practice on pavement, in a parking lot.  Get to know what you need to see in your mirrors and how far you can go before dropping off the roadway.

3. Camping > I prefer being alone so I go far off the beaten track.  Every year I get a little more adventurous.  Experience again.  If you are comfortable in a campground or roadside pullouts, use them.  Try going a little further each time you go out.  Just don't get yourself into a place you can't enjoy because of worrying about getting out.
Always carry extraction equipment and learn how to use it.  Carry at minimum a shovel, a good jack (like a high lift), a wide base for the jack, a pull strap, a saw, an axe, traction mats.

4. Tires > Highway tires suck in the back country!  World of difference with off road tires.  Your best bet is an all-terrain tire (I have Cooper Discoverer AT3; good on most surfaces, fair in mud).  Talk to a tire dealer about availability for your van.

The big thing is listen to your gut, experience, and always have a plan for getting out of a situation before you go in.

P.S. Last summer the area around Moab was restricted from dispersed camping on FS and BLM land.

 -- Spiff

 

[DLTooley]

If the road looks dicey don't chance it. It might get better, or it might not. Stop where you can still turn around or back up. Walk the bad stretch to see how far it goes. In colder weather mud will freeze. Tire chains can be used for traction when stuck by just laying them out flat. If the road is so muddy that I'd need to put them on I wouldn't drive it. Make sure you have a shovel. Speed makes a difference. Having a super low first gear is good in some conditions, without you want to keep up speed in sand and mud. I find 25-30 mph is good - I fish tail just a little, but not too much.

A big part of experience is adjusting your camps based on the weather. Use the weather reports on your smartphone while you still have service. Weather radios are good, but coverage is not universal.

 

[tsilb]

P.S. Last summer the area around Moab was restricted from dispersed camping on FS and BLM land.

They'd post this somewhere, right?

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I agree with the suggestion that you can only learn by doing, but may I suggest that whenever possible, you find a second vehicle to travel with.  Nothing like having a second vehicle with a tow strap to help out when you get stuck while trying to learn by doing.

 

[DLTooley]

The presence of other vehicles, in your party or otherwise, is a big calculated risk factor - as also is the amount of drinking water you have.

The visitor center in downtown Moab has at least a few informed folks. They don't advertise it but the State Trust land is the best near Moab option. They have been closing that down as well most notably the once prime spots out Kane Creek. The State Trust spot I go to is Willow Springs, IIRC - not too far north.

 

[bullfrog]

RVSue has several good spots listed on her site around Green River and Bluff that she has pulled a Casita trailer with her 2 wheel drive van to camp. Granted she has been doing this awhile. Make friends with some of the Utah DNR officers by calling and asking to do some volunteer work or "ride a longs" be sure to ask about easy remote spots to get to and when you go ask if they could do a "wellness check" if you don't call back after a day or so. I once had such a person's wife call saying her husband was 5 days overdue! Since I knew where he usually went it only took 10 hours so to find him broke down and we were able to get him going. He was living on fish and had plenty of water so it was really no problem, but we are really good friends now.