Back to electric shop for adjustment??

[Ella1]

Continuing from VAN thread "deep cell battery cut-off switch"
I took the van to  Certified Auto Electric in Tucson.
This is the statement list of what he did, and he took before and after photos:
March 7, 2017
large voltage drop from alternator to main and aux batteries
traced drop to the added isolation system
the wiring is insufficient to carry the current
Repair wire harness
remove added battery isolation system, replace fusible link, install new isolation system with 4 gauge battery cables
rest found no voltage drop to battery systems
After establishing that there is a problem in one of the wire
harnesses, open up the harness and repair the immediate problem.
Install battery charger cables for both batteries
Install extra battery cable per customer request
Added cable from aux battery to under driver's seat.

When I left Thurs eve, the volt meter read a hair over 14. Drove the 10 miles home and didn't drive again until Saturday. No change when turning on the AC or lights.
Saturday, Mar 11,  about noon, I drove ~4  miles, stopped at a light. Car shuddered,  power dropped, and I noticed both check engine soon light and use unleaded fuel only lights were  on.  This is the same type of gas I've used since getting it in 1998. I had to drive another mile before I could turn home. I turned into a parking lot and similar behaviors occurred.

Monday AM took it to my regular mechanic. It turned out the water pump failed. Now I have a new pump AND belt tensioner. And NOW, the volt meter is reading a bit UNDER 14 volts. Now when turning on the AC, the reading changes a tiny bit, with the lights, there is more drop, and is more noticeable.
Before I left the mechanic, --the same ones who weren't concerned about my low voltage readings for years--checked it, and said it's in range, there is nothing they did to cause a drop, except the new belt tensioner may cause that difference. He--the manager--is NOT concerned about it.

Do I need to--should I-- take this back to the electric shop for an adjustment? [/color]

Thanks for your guidance.

 

[SternWake]

The voltage the vehicle's voltage regulator allows is rarely ever constant.  It is affected by alternator and engine temperature, and possibly a battery temperature sensor too.

Dashboard gauges are notoriously inaccurate.  First thing I do when a guage reads outside normal parameters is suspect the gauge.

If you take your vehicle back, they will feel obligated to find something they can charge you for.

 

[Ella1]

Thanks!

 

[DannyB1954]

The range for voltage in a vehicle charging system is between 13.8 and 14.6. At least that it how it used to be. Most will be closer to 13.8 than 14.6. The lower voltage may now be caused because the vehicle can now effectively charge your house battery and the house battery is absorbing everything the alternator puts out. A heavy load will drop the voltage.

Many vehicles have optional high output alternators. Maybe one is available for yours.

 

[SternWake]

Did your engine coolant temperature gauge ever Shoot up higher than normal when the van shuddered, lost power and the check engine light and use unleaded fuel only lights came on?

Seems kind of random that the water pump would be related to this shuddering and loss of power without also showing obvious signs of engine overheating.

If youhave been plugging in your battery chargers, the alternator will have very little work load as fully charged batteries can accept only very little current, at 13.6 or 14.7v or whatever your vehicle's voltage regulator is allowing.

Your voltage regulator is inside the alternator.
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=45745&cc=1028067&jsn=464&jsn=464

http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=38521&cc=1028067&jsn=457

The loss of power/ shuddering at a stop light issue, might still be present on future drives, and I doubt it has anything to do with your charging system.

 

[Ella1]

Did your engine coolant temperature gauge ever Shoot up higher than normal when the van shuddered, lost power and the check engine light and use unleaded fuel only lights came on?

I've been trying to remember. I got home Thurs eve  from CAE and parked facing in. I was having work done on the house Fri, so I backed the van out onto the driveway Fri AM. That's when I discovered a puddle that was sort of driver side front, a bit forward of the wheels. I did wonder about it, but after driving, there has sometimes been some overflow. It hasn't happened for a while. Then the worker arrived, and that was that. I didn't move it again until Sat when I started my drive.

No. I'm relatively sure of that (no  overheating). Since the electrical was upgraded, I've been watching ALL the gauges, more than I should be, probably. I can (relatively) safely say that the engine temperature qauge did not go above normal. At the time that was happening I was watching the volt meter in particular. When I got home, I backed in. Just in case it needed towed.

Seems kind of random that the water pump would be related to this shuddering and loss of power without also showing obvious signs of engine overheating.

 WHAT would cause it then? I did explain the shuddering and loss of power to the manager at the garage.

I blotted the Friday residue, and that of a smaller puddle Sun eve, for the mechanic. I was told the radiator was about half full.

If you have been plugging in your battery chargers, the alternator will have very little work load as fully charged batteries can accept only very little current, at 13.6 or 14.7v or whatever your vehicle's voltage regulator is allowing.
No, I have not yet plugged the charger in. No need to right now. I get out a lot more in the summer than from Nov to March/April. If I need to let it sit for long, I'll plug it in, but James at CAE said with the corrected wiring, he didn't think the charger would be necessary. I told him I hibernate during the winter. (yes, even here in Tucson)

Your voltage regulator is inside the alternator.
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=45745&cc=1028067&jsn=464&jsn=464
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=38521&cc=1028067&jsn=457

The loss of power/ shuddering at a stop light issue, might still be present on future drives, and I doubt it has anything to do with your charging system.

After I left the mechanic Monday, I did several errands without any problems, and was able to drive a bit yesterday. I'm afraid all this is getting to me. I am going out soon, so fingers and toes are crossed.

I'll let you know if I make it past 5 miles... :s
Thanks.

 

[SternWake]

It takes a long time to fully charge batteries, time your alternator does not have. 80% to 100% takes about 4 hours at ideal voltages.  YOur alternator is not allowed to achieve ideal voltages and you do not drive for 4 hours anyway.

Any lead acid battery is happiest when fully charged, not so happy when left to hover inthe 75 to 85% range.



if you want to maximize the battery life, fully charge them and do not rely on the alternator to take care of them on short trips. Mechanical and even auto electric guys have little idea of what a battery desires, nor do they care.

I don't know what is causing the loss of power and shuddering.  Hopefully it was the water pump and it does not return and your vehicular issues are behind you.

 

[Ella1]

 It takes a long time to fully charge batteries, time your alternator does not have. 80% to 100% takes about 4 hours at ideal voltages.  Your alternator is not allowed to achieve ideal voltages and you do not drive for 4 hours anyway.
You're correct, I rarely drive 4 hours, even on a round trip. Hmm. Just to be clear, do you mean 4 hours without stopping, or with a short stop for a snack /gas break?                        

Any lead acid battery is happiest when fully charged, not so happy when left to hover inthe 75 to 85% range.  
if you want to maximize the battery life, fully charge them and do not rely on the alternator to take care of them on short trips. Mechanical and even auto electric guys have little idea of what a battery desires, nor do they care.
I think what you are saying, is plug it in, after driving less than 4 hours total, which most of my trips are. Basically all the time when it's sitting home. Is that correct?
Or, should I plug it in and watch the indicator lights, and unplug when they indicate "full"?

I don't know what is causing the loss of power and shuddering.  Hopefully it was the water pump and it does not return and your vehicular issues are behind you.

I hope so too. I just drove it about 46.7 miles, mostly at 45 -50 mph. I did make a few stops of 15 minutes or more along the way, and there was no trouble. I have a 12v plug-in meter and watched it, comparing to dash voltage meter. The dash voltmeter almost constantly indicated a bit less that 14 volts, the plug-in one, while engine was on was almost always 14.1 to 14.3, even with AC. When I turned the headlights on, it dropped to 13.8.

 

[SternWake]

I can only guess at the state of charge of yor batteries.  
You now have the ability to plug in, and recharge your batteries fully.  It would be wise to do so, to get the batteries full ASAP.

We do not know if the guys who worked on your vehicle bothered charging your depleted batteries, or simply jumped your vehicle after working on it, and if this is the case, then they might require you to drive for 6+ hours before they would even be close to fully charged.

Or you can plug in your charger when parked and let it go.

 Abused batteries self discharge faster then new ones.  They self discharge faster in warmer ambient temperatures.  Parasitic loads, from door lock key fobs, the engine computer, the radio presets, all combine to form some sort of parasitic draw on the engine battery.  The inverter on the House battery, even turned off, might present a very small parasitic load on that battery.

Once a battery is below 80% the sulfates on the plates begine to harden, and fight redissolving back into electrolyte when recharged, and as a result, the battery capacity shrinks.  The lower below 80% and the longer it stays there, the harder it is to redissolve the sulfates back into electrolyte and the battery ages and loses capacity even faster.

Return batteries back to 100% state of charge as often as possible as soon as possible, for best life.

The effort you choose to go through to achieve this, is up to you

 

When you turn on the headlamps the voltage at the battery terminal might still be 14.1v, but the ciggy plug voltmeter is likely partially sharing the circuit which feeds the headlights.  More amperage  load on the wiring, more voltage drop.  It is to be expected.  Battery terminal voltage can easily be 0.3v different that the ciggy plug voltmeter depending on the loads on the shared part of the circuit feeding both.

The best place to take voltage readings is right at battery terminals.

YOur voltages when you drive are indicative of a functioning charging system.  Just get those batteries back upto 100% via your plug in charger, and if it sits for more than 2 weeks without being driven, the battery 'Might ' be back in the 80% range,  below which one should really try not to let them go, and slowly discharge more and more each day.

 

[highdesertranger]

hey Stern do you know anything about converting Dodge power windows to manual, check out this thread. https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-No-Fan-of-Power-windows-door-locks?pid=272101#pid272101 . highdesertranger

 

[Ella1]

 I can only guess at the state of charge of your batteries.  
You now have the ability to plug in, and recharge your batteries fully.  It would be wise to do so, to get the batteries full ASAP.
The main battery is (relatively) new. Installed Feb 7, about  6 weeks ago, and has had only short "grocery" runs on it.
The auxiliary battery is about 2 years old, April 8, 2015. Had a little use that year.  But was also under the effects of inadequate wiring.

We do not know if the guys who worked on your vehicle bothered charging your depleted batteries, or simply jumped your vehicle after working on it, and if this is the case, then they might require you to drive for 6+ hours before they would even be close to fully charged.
He charged the aux battery.  I will ask him if the main battery needed charged.

Or you can plug in your charger when parked and let it go.
I will do that tomorrow. It's very late.

 Abused batteries self discharge faster then new ones.  They self discharge faster in warmer ambient temperatures.  Parasitic loads, from door lock key fobs, the engine computer, the radio presets, all combine to form some sort of parasitic draw on the engine battery.  The inverter on the House battery, even turned off, might present a very small parasitic load on that battery.

Once a battery is below 80% the sulfates on the plates begine to harden, and fight redissolving back into electrolyte when recharged, and as a result, the battery capacity shrinks.  The lower below 80% and the longer it stays there, the harder it is to redissolve the sulfates back into electrolyte and the battery ages and loses capacity even faster.

Return batteries back to 100% state of charge as often as possible as soon as possible, for best life.

The effort you choose to go through to achieve this, is up to you
I really appreciate your taking the time to explain this to me. I will plug it in when returning home. Do I leave it plugged in until I go out again, or keep an eye on the charger, and unplug when it indicates fully charged, even if not going out for several days? I do think that is what you are saying to do: plug it in and leave it plugged in. Can the batteries be overcharged? Is that a danger? 

When you turn on the headlamps the voltage at the battery terminal might still be 14.1v, but the ciggy plug voltmeter is likely partially sharing the circuit which feeds the headlights.  More amperage  load on the wiring, more voltage drop.  It is to be expected.  Battery terminal voltage can easily be 0.3v different that the ciggy plug voltmeter depending on the loads on the shared part of the circuit feeding both.

The best place to take voltage readings is right at battery terminals.

Your voltages when you drive are indicative of a functioning charging system.  Just get those batteries back up to 100% via your plug in charger, and if it sits for more than 2 weeks without being driven, the battery 'Might ' be back in the 80% range,  below which one should really try not to let them go, and slowly discharge more and more each day.

Then I will leave it plugged in all the time until I go driving. Unless I am misunderstanding you. I do not get out a lot. I hope I can alter that this year.
SternWake, Again, thanks.

 

[SternWake]

I forget which charger you have acquired. do you know make and model #?

Most modern chargers will drop out of absorption and then indefefinitly hold a float/Maintenance voltage.

The only time this might be bad is in super hot ambeint temperatures, *If* the charger does not lower the voltage automatically for extreme temperatures. Likewise in very cold conditions the maintenance charger should ideally raise voltage. The farther away from 77F the battery is, the more important the float/maintenance voltage is adjusted for battery temperature.

There are not many chargers with battery temperature sensors, and a few do have ambeint air sensors, assuming that ambient temperature and battery temperature are one and the same. Some others will simply hold 13.2v no matter what.

YOu can Leave many chargers plugged in all the time, but knowing the voltage the charger holds is very wise.

There are some maintenance chargers, that if the AC is disconnected, will slowly discharge the battery. If this is not known and rectified, then the maintenance charger might discharge and kill the battery if the power goes out for an extended period, or the plug is knocked from the wall.

Many people prefer to simply take off the charger once it claims to have fully charged the battery, and reapply it Every X amount of days until it again flashes green light. This is likely the safest, as long as one remembers to reapply every so often.

if you use inverter with engine off, always plug that battery in again to the charger to top it off.

One can deplete a battery from 100% if 80% in mere minutes, but recharging it back from 80% to 100% is 3.5+ hours at absorption voltages, and 100% is where the battery wants to be, always.

 

[Ella1]

I forget which charger you have acquired. do you know make and model #?
Most modern chargers will drop out of absorption and then indefefinitly hold a float/Maintenance voltage.
NOCO Genius GENMini2 8 Amp 2-Bank Waterproof Smart On-Board Battery Charger
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CBTRMZ4/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
8 Amp (4 Amp per bank) Smart On-Board Battery Charger for 12-volt batteries; charges and maintains all types of lead-acid batteries from 20-120Ah, including Wet, Gel, MF, and AGM
Designed for safety; Safe for anyone to use. Does not generate sparks, and protects against reverse battery hookup, short circuit, open circuit, overheat, overcurrent and does not overcharge the battery
Brings batteries back to life; an advanced recovery mode repairs damaged areas of the battery to provide longer, healthier battery performance. Recovers deeply discharged and sulfated batteries with pulse charging.

Product Description
Style:2-Bank 8 Amp
GEN Mini On-Board Smart Battery Chargers are rugged and compact waterproof chargers for 12 volts lead-acid batteries. They can be mounted onto virtually any vehicle, like a boat, car, tractor, or RV. Safe to leave connected indefinitely, the GEN Mini interactively diagnoses, recovers, and charges wet, gel, MF and AGM batteries from 20-120 ampere hour and maintains all battery sizes. The GEN Mini is a smart battery charging solution for rugged environments, and includes multiple innovative features, such as 100 percent waterproof design, automatically recovers sulfated batteries, charges multiple battery chemistries, designed for user safety, protects against abnormal conditions, small, compact design, optimizes a battery's specific gravity, charges 2X faster than traditional chargers, works with varying AV voltages, and ignition protected. GEN Mini On-Board Smart Battery Chargers are rated at IP68, ETL approved for United States and Canada, and comes with a 5 year limited warranty.
more info at url

The charger is inside the van behind the driver seat.

The only time this might be bad is in super hot ambeint temperatures, *If* the charger does not lower the voltage automatically for extreme temperatures.  Likewise in very cold conditions the maintenance charger should ideally raise voltage.  The farther away from 77F the battery is, the more important the float/maintenance voltage is adjusted for battery temperature.
It's already (mid March) in high 80's. I hope this does not mean late summer is going to be off the chart.
There are not many chargers with battery temperature sensors, and a few do have ambeint air sensors, assuming that ambient temperature and battery temperature are one and the same.  Some others will simply hold 13.2v no matter what.

https://no.co/products/charging/onboard     https://no.co/genm2

YOu can Leave many chargers plugged in all the time, but knowing the voltage the charger holds is very wise.

from https://no.co/genm2
Maintenance Plus.
A powerful battery maintenance charge that actively monitors and manages charge cycles, but also provides a finishing charge every 24-hours, keeping batteries fully charged with zero overcharge

There are some maintenance chargers, that if the AC is disconnected, will slowly discharge the battery.  If this is not known and rectified, then the maintenance charger might discharge and kill the battery if the power goes out for an extended period, or the plug is knocked from the wall.  

It seems like this can be left plugged in, but I may be reading it incorrectly.
For our summer heat, I think it would be best to not leave it plugged in after it reaches full charge on both batteries status.

Many people prefer to simply take off the charger once it claims to have fully charged the battery, and reapply it Every X amount of days until it again flashes green light.  This is likely the safest, as long as one remembers to reapply every so often.

Okay. This is what I will do, then.

if you use inverter with engine off, always plug that battery in again to the charger to top it off.

I will put a note on the bathroom mirror.

One can deplete a battery from 100% if 80% in mere minutes, but recharging it back from 80%  to 100% is 3.5+ hours at absorption voltages, and 100% is where the battery wants to be, always.

 

[SternWake]

People seem to like their Noco chargers. At 4 amps max per battery, well that is not very much, but is OK with flooded batteries when there is enough time.

Right now, with your somewhat abused batteries at an unknown state of charge, I would leave it hooked up for a few days initially, even after it indicates full charge. The few days should be able to squeeze in that last couple highly resistant %.

I do not see any mention of temperature sensing, so I would not leave it plugged in in tuscon's summertime temperatures for extended periods. If you do, check the battery water levels more often, refill with distilled water.

 

[Trebor English]

You're correct, I rarely drive 4 hours, even on a round trip. Hmm. Just to be clear, do you mean 4 hours without stopping, or with a short stop for a snack /gas break?

A total elapsed time isn't paramount.  The key is no more discharging.  For example, start with taking out 10 amp hours.  Begin the 4 hour drive.  After 3 hours 8 amp hours are put back.  Stop, take a break, and take out 2 amp hours.  Then drive another hour.  Those last 2 amp hours are put back.  The original 10 usage still isn't all put back.  Those 2 amp hours that still need to be put back are buried and hard to recharge. 

If you plug in your battery charger it could charge 1/2 amp for 10 hours, 5 amp hours, and still not finish putting back those buried 2 amp hours.  If the battery sits for a week or a month that buried 2 amp hours of lead sulfate could become permanent.  That loss of useful 2 amp hours is like a loss of 4 amp hours of capacity.