110 volt LED Light versus 12 bolt LED

[Oneleggedcowboy]

So I know Jimindenver has a constant on inverter and runs 110 volt all the time. In my remodel of my electrical system I will be running a 12 volt refrigerator constantly off my inverter. Actually all the 110 volt wiring will be live with cutoff switches to anything plugged in to prevent phantom loss. I also have 12 volt lights wired up in part of the trailer but other parts have existing 110 volt LED fixtures. 

Since the inverter is running 24/7 what is the usage difference of the 110 volt LED and the 12 volt LED?  Keep in mind the 110 volt LED lights up the area so much better that 2 of the 12 volt Led.

Next is how much phantom loss of electricity will I have if nothing is plugged in except the refrigerator.  According to the inverter manual it uses .4 amp per hour so thats 9.6 amps per day.
I have 6 trojans and 370 watts of non tilted solar. I have tried it and even here in NC it runs the refrigerator with no problem. I tested it for 2 weeks. The solar system would be back to fully charged begore 12 noon. It's a 3.2 cubic with a freezer and only one door. 

Thanks folks, I know I need a Kill a watt meter but hey I have yall and you are much better!!!

 

[highdesertranger]

why would you run a 12v refrigerator off of 110v? you are losing 10% or more power right off the bat.

I don't know what inverter you have but inverters are only 70-90% efficient. in other words you are losing 10-30% of your power by running something though an inverter. this is separate then the parasitic draw which adds even more loses.

comparing to Jim is like apples to oranges he has over 1,000 watts.

what's going to happen when you run into a week of cloudy weather? 370 watts isn't all that much especially for six 6v batteries.

highdesertranger

 

[MrAlvinDude]

As you say that all of your 110V devices will all be with switches on the 110V wires, then none of these devices will have any phantom energy consumption, when the switch is off.

 

[DannyB1954]

Anytime you convert electricity to a different form you will lose energy in the process. Usually in the form of heat. Like HDR said. You are taking 12 volt DC from the battery, converting it to 120 Volts AC, and then sending it to the 12 Volt DC refrigerator which has to convert the 120 back into 12. That is twice that it is converted, so figure a 40% loss. In addition you will be losing energy 24/7 keeping the inverter on for the refrigerator. Inverters use electricity whenever they are turned on. They are busy making the voltage conversion waiting for something to start using it. Running the refrigerator on 12 volts DC from the start, you can shut the inverter off until you really need it.

You can get brighter 12 Volt DC LED lights. They are even using them for head lights now. The problem with 120 volt LED is again in the voltage conversion. LED's run off of very low voltage, (like 3 volts). To run them on 120 AC volts, that needs to be converted to a lower voltage. Many times they do that with a resistor. This wastes energy as the resistor usually gives off heat. again, anytime that you have an inverter turned on you are losing energy. The larger the inverter, the greater the losses. If you really want 120 volt LED lights, I would get tiny inverters to run them and only turn on the inverter when I want light. a 100 watt inverter will use less electricity than a 2,000 watt inverter. The large inverter could consume more energy than the light itself does. Using 12 volts to make 120 volts to make 12 volts again is not very productive.

If you drive at all, a system that charges your house batteries while you drive is a handy thing to have.

 

[RogerD]

Your fridge is 3.2 cubic ft?

Is it 120v and not 12v?

Don't see how something that size is only going to use 9 aH per day at 12v.

 

[XERTYX]

I think they meant the inverters idle usage was 9.6Ah

If it's a fridge freezer with one door it sounds like a dorm fridge.


*Edit*
Also as far as advantages of 12v led bulbs over 120v led bulbs would be that those 9.6Ah used by the inverter at idle could very nearly power a 12v 5 watt LED bulb for 24 hours.

5w X 24h = 120 watt hours. 120Wh / 12V = 10Ah

 

[Oneleggedcowboy]

Ok the inverter idle is 9.6 amps. The fridge is a compressor fridge with a decent size all considered freezer.
I need almost all the fridges space for my medical supplies.
I don't want a larger propane fridge because I dont want to buy propane.
I will be running the 12 volt LED lights but I will have the option of also using 110 LED.
All of this is for convience.
If I can run the rig with constant 110 volt power for 2 weeks on the east coast then out west will be even easier.
I have pulled a modified horse trailer for living over 100000 miles with dorm fridges and them running off my rig with no problem so it ain't gonna tear the fridge up.
I would ask tongue in cheek if yall would help me with my question and the answer which no one has yet to address. I don't wont a half dozen 12 volt fridges to be able to hold all my medical supplies and a little food. My fridge will hold it all. As a matter of fact I hope the fridge does quit so I can get a larger one.
Yall do know the new motor homes come from the factory with 110 volt household fridges and they run just fine. Plus most get solar installed and run off that just fine.
Please just address my questions. I am well versed in solar. I have a slide in pickup camper with 490 watts solar. I have a travel trailer will 400 watts solar. I have a weekender living quarter horse trailer with 320 watts solar. Now I am fixing this large toy hauler gooseneck horse trailer with 370 watts solar!!! All self installed and works like a charm. Yall get the credit for these setups because yall taught me on here how to do it. I just am curious about energy usage for a LED light with 110 volt versus equivalent 12 v? Also how much phantom loss if a inverter is running and powering a 110 volt wiring system with nothing hooked to it?
Thanks folks!!! Bill

 

[highdesertranger]

wellin your first post you said you had a 12v refrigerator,

"In my remodel of my electrical system I will be running a 12 volt refrigerator constantly off my inverter."

I was just asking why you would do that.

so I guess you are just asking about the phantom loss?

technically if you are running a refrigerator off the inverter you don't have a phantom loss a phantom loss is when the inverter is powering nothing I believe you have already posted that number. however you do have the conversion loss. this all depends on your specific inverter. it's anywhere between 10-30% of loss in the conversion of 12v to 110v again it depends on your inverter. look at the spec sheet for your inverter if it doesn't mention this it's probably one of the lower end units and they don't want to tell you.

"Yall do know the new motor homes come from the factory with 110 volt household fridges and they run just fine"

this is not exactly true either. your high end motorhomes come with 110v refrigerators because those are expected to be plugged in at the campground. your smaller RV's are either the old tech 3 way or true native 12v compressor refrigerators.

also most of your solar system they put on RV's are just used for flashy selling points, most are not true boondocking systems.

highdesertranger

 

[B and C]

Ok the inverter idle is 9.6 amps. ...  Also how much phantom loss if a inverter is running and powering a 110 volt wiring system with nothing hooked to it?
Thanks folks!!!    Bill

You answered your own question.  9.6 amps powering nothing.  Wiring itself doesn't use power, it is just a transport means for those items that do need power.  This 9.6 amps plus whatever your dorm fridge consumes is what your base power use will be.

Edit to add: plus the conversion losses.

Get an ammeter that reads DC amps and you will get a direct reading of what the system is consuming.

 

[DannyB1954]

Some people use the thermostat inside of the refrigerator to turn on the inverter that powers it. There was a thread on this site that discussed how to do that. This way the inverter shuts down unless needed.

The size inverter that you need depends on the refrigerator that you are using. If you plan to get a larger refrigerator, it should be based on that. How much your inverter uses while idle should be either written on a decale on the inverter or available from the inverter manufacturer.
A more accurate way to know would be to put a meter in series with it and turn it on.

I thought I did answer your LED question. If you power an inverter to run a 120 volt light, the inverter will use up power in addition to what the light uses. How much depends on the inverter that you use. Using 12 volt DC lights eliminates inverter losses. A 7 watt light will use 7 watts. It doesn't matter 120 ac or 12 dc.

It is easy to create energy losses. Some have used their batteries to run an inverter to run the battery charger and then wonder why it doesn't work. Every electrical device that you use will use energy.

 

[maki2]

Time to give yourself some basic education about what LED lighting is and how it works. Also what is needed to allow the DC LEDs to be able to run off of AC electricity.

Remember you already have DC in you on the road vehicle so would you want to convert your DC system into AC (what an inverter does) and then have it power an AC LED light bulb that has circuitry withing it to convert AC power into the DC power that the LEDs need to light up?

That makes no sense and you will be wasting your precious electrical power to gain zero advantage.

What LED lamps are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_lamp

 

[jimindenver]

All being equal the difference between a 120v LED and a 12v LED is the power it takes for the inverter to produce the 120 Vac to run it. So not much really. The reasons the 120v LED's are brighter is simply that they are bigger and use more power than your 12v ones.

I have a 300 watt equivalent 120 Vac LED that makes my porch light look dim and really it's not. It's not that the 120v version is better, it just suck a lot more power and not just because it is 120v. I could buy or make a equally bright 12 volt version and it too would suck a lot of power and need thicker wiring to run it.

One fallacy we deal with is that people think that if it's 12 volt that it doesn't use much power and that's BS. My Engel 12v 40 quart used as a freezer uses over 4 amps a hour when it's running. When it is hot it shuts off and turns right back on due to the lack of insulation. 4+ amps x 24 is 100 amp hours a day. Is it a bit more because I run it off of 120 Vac? yep but as mentioned, I have nearly 1200 watts and I do not care. I go through 300 amp hours on a light day, a heavy day is north of 650 amp hours.

That brings up the next point. Once you start using and producing a lot of power, nitpicking the little things like inverter losses become a waste. Just make sure you produce more than you use.

370 watts is not a lot to work with honestly. One person here has the energy star rated 3.2 on 600 watts and she does good. Another has a full size two door on twice the solar that you have and runs his generator a lot.

 

[maki2]

Lots of the members are relying on their little solar rechargeable Luci lights for their primary lighting in the evening and fortunately that works out nicely if you don't stay up all night.

 

[Oneleggedcowboy]

Oops my bad with the 12 volt fridge statement, thanks highdesertranger!
DannyB you answered it both times but it didn't sink in until the second time that 7 watts is 7 watts. Now my question is about a 110 volt LED light changing the volts and using energy by shedding it as heat. Apparently a household 110 LED is not a 110 volt light but maybe a 3 or 5 volt light and the bulk base reduces the voltage??? I am confused about this. It sounds like I will have inverter loss plus this vold age reduction loss???
Thanks folks, I can put a solar system together and install it thanks to this forum but that doesn't mean I understand it....LOL.

 

[highdesertranger]

you are losing twice, in the inverter conversion and in the LED conversion. highdesertranger

 

[MrAlvinDude]

"I just am curious about energy usage for a LED light with 110 volt versus equivalent 12 v? "

If your 110V LED is a 5W LED and your 12V LED is also a 5W LED, then they will use the same level of energy, specifically 5W

If your 110V LED is a 20W LED and your 12V is still only a 5W LED, then the difference is 15W. But the amount of light from the the 20W LED will be much more light.


In your 110V LED you might loose some of those 5W (or some of the 20W) in an internal voltage-down-converter.

Some 12V LED designs still have in internal voltage-down-converter, so for those types of 110V and 12V LEDs there is only very small differences in the voltage-down-converter energy losses.


Some 12V (and even some 110V) LED designs will be direct-powered LED designs, and they will not have an internal voltage-down-converter, so no voltage energy loss in those designs.

Here are videos that illustrate the direct-powered LED designs:



The direct-powered LED designs are however very sensitive to over-voltage situations. And as the battery voltage typically swing between 13.5V to 12V (and 110V can also swing +-10%), one needs to be very aware of what voltage is the actual max operation voltage for a direct-powered LED design.

 

[Oneleggedcowboy]

Ok maybe I need to do a little better on solar power. The nice thing about my gooseneck horse trailer/toy hauler is I have a roof that's 7 ft wide and 22 feet long. Lots of room for solar.
So I have 3 solar panels laying around that are 100 watt. I could put 2 of those up there and hook them up to make a 200 watt 24 volt set and run them thru another Evo Worthy MPPT controller. That would give me 570 watts of solar and 675 amp hours battery in the Trojan t105 battery bank. Do you think that would work Jimindenver?

 

[jimindenver]

Regulated vs unregulated LED's use to be a huge debate on the RV forums. Regulated use to cost ten times as much as unregulated and their biggest use was for those in RV parks where a converter kept the voltage up. Most boondockers use their LED's at night when the solar is not keeping the voltage up.

 

[B and C]

I like the regulated ones so that I can use dimmers on them. I only want bright light when doing tasks, otherwise dim lights for ambiance and so I don't completely kill my night vision when I go out. Dimmer lights don't attract as many bugs either. It is bad enough the way it is.

 

[jimindenver]

Ok maybe I need to do a little better on solar power. The nice thing about my gooseneck horse trailer/toy hauler is I have a roof that's 7 ft wide and 22 feet long. Lots of room for solar.
So I have 3 solar panels laying around that are 100 watt. I could put 2 of those up there and hook them up to make a 200 watt 24 volt set and run them thru another Evo Worthy MPPT controller. That would give me 570 watts of solar and 675 amp hours battery in the Trojan t105 battery bank.  Do you think that would work Jimindenver?

I think that you have something to start with. I hope that you have one of the mini fridges that use less power but even then I suggest that you have a alternate means of charging in the event that we are wrong or the sun does not play nice for too long of a time.

In other words, set it up, push the button and see what happens.