Colorado US Forest Service - Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts - Request for comment

The Long Term Visitor Areas (LTVA) have been very successful for many even though they could be better and better maintained. Maybe by designating more areas on federal lands closer to towns with strict enforcement and better well maintained facilities and using technology in the rest of the area to insure existing rules and requirements are followed would help people use the lands without destroying them. It is good people can live extended periods in the LTVAs several months during the winter. Why not develop LTVAs at higher elevations where they could stay long term during the summer?

I like that idea! I thought there were higher elevation sites... in CA? Maybe not BLM and maybe I'm just mistaken.

It would help a lot I think. It seems most of the issues are at the high elevation where a lot of people camp near town. I think NFS might need to get in the act though, since they usually administer the land in those places.

I stumbled here a few years back while searching for technical advice. My above post was not meant to be trolling, but simply the reflections of changes in camping from part-time to media influences that encourage full-time living on shared public lands never meant for full-time living. The name of this forum at the top of the page does not include the words full-time or free.

LTVA's are a perfect example of being willing to pay for the privilege, not right, to camp long term somewhere. There should be more of them. Less people pay attention to the word privilege anymore.

My fifty year memories are fuzzy, but I seem to remember 14 day limits back in the 1970's, before full-time living on public lands became a thing. Having camped in the desert southwest, Rockies, and Pacific northwest, I don't remember anything that resembled what is happening now.

To purchase and outfit something to camp/live in requires expenditures. Living from day to day requires purchases. There is no true freedom, we all live with constraints. Spending money on everything else, while expecting to live full-time for free on land that does not belong to you as an individual, full-time, seems out of touch with reality and self-centered. I've spoken with those that have sold expensive property, have a substantial nest egg, bought expensive campers, yet search diligently for free camping full time. If you owned a time-share, and one of the owners moved in full-time, would you care? Squatting is squatting.

I enjoy camping in areas with no amenities. In my recent travels, mainly east of the Mississippi, a number of walk up campsites with iron dukes have disappeared, and now require advance online reservations. There are now on-site hosts. Discussions revealed problems with unruly squatters, trash, substance abuse, and others, caused the effected enforcement to give up and hand it to private contractors. Some require a one or more day ahead reservation for a minimum of two nights. It's made my traveling/camping less pleasant.

I've got ten years, tops. I hope camping privileges and site appearances don't go downhill as rapidly as the last ten.

^^^^^Edit: Duuh, Iron Ranger

jasper said:

I stumbled here a few years back while searching for technical advice. My above post was not meant to be trolling, but simply the reflections of changes in camping from part-time to media influences that encourage full-time living on shared public lands never meant for full-time living. The name of this forum at the top of the page does not include the words full-time or free.

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I dont think of your post as 'trolling'...but something to keep in mind is that millions of Americans have been 'full timing' on public lands for decades. Maybe it seems new, or recent, but it's not.

What IS new is that the numbers have increased and it's all over youtube, facebook, nightly news, and even the big screen (movies like Nomadland).

It's trendy, and it's cool, and it's glamorous now: Hunky dudes and curvy chix living the life in a nice new van camper, and affiliate links allow them to make a living off the viewers, and widespread internet helps many to make a remote digital career out of it, which was not practical before.

Previously, if you dropped out of civilization and lived on the road in an RV, a van, your old family wagon, or a horse-drawn gypsy vardo, nobody knew, and almost nobody cared.

Today, right now, If you could snap your fingers and 'fix' all this, what would happen to the millions who are successfully living on the road, and would have to end up in possibly substandard inner city housing, maybe section 8, or competing for affordable housing...which always raises prices. Or maybe piled up like cordwood in crappy little apartments or parked bumper-to-bumper along public roads and in abandoned retail parking lots.

In other words, where would we put everyone? It's not just a few thousand, the number is in the MILLIONS.

As I see it, 'wear-leveling' (a term used for solid-state drives) is a good solution: Spreading people out on less populated lands, and as a result, reducing the concentrated negative impact on limited resources and supplies in already overcrowded cities.

Or so it seems to me.

jasper said:

My fifty year memories are fuzzy, but I seem to remember 14 day limits back in the 1970's, before full-time living on public lands became a thing. Having camped in the desert southwest, Rockies, and Pacific northwest, I don't remember anything that resembled what is happening now.

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It was happening then, what’s made it a thing really is social media making it visible.

Going back further recall that the Civilian Conservation Corps actually put people to work during times not all that different from today, in the NFS.

It used to be it was de facto legal to camp over 14 days if you were making a living in the forest. Typically that’s forest work including firewood cutting and livestock. I imagine it also included folks with foraging permits. I personally did so as a tree planter for two seasons prior to College.

Recently I could not find that legal citation, so I imagine it’s part of any specific special use permit on a routine basis.

NFS LTVAs are a good option, the only one I’m aware of is the Alabama Hills in the Eastern Sierra. If I recall right the current District Ranger there used to run the Telluride (Norwood) District.

A third option would be long term work camps near labor starving resort towns, on a local government supported special use permit with GOOD management.

This is real work and it takes someone paid and someone connected with the Community. The NFS needs to do the paying, maybe with a local match. I can do the community stuff here around Telluride, both NFS and BLM. But I can’t do it alone.

If a camping spot is good, special use permit or not, it will face increasing demands. That path goes from dispersed to designated dispersed to paid. There are costs which the LTVA budget will reveal in any case. Personally, I’d also like to see competition for fee concessions.

Currently the most qualified person is Steve Headrick. Unfortunately he let himself get provoked last summer around Flagstaff. All in all very telling. Personally I think he should get NFS expense paid community service!

Bullfrog also has substantial experience, and he might be someone easier to get paid. I can do the local in SW Colorado and SE Utah, but I’m not interested in full time paid work. We do need a functional board that respects the very essence of Nomad life, we don’t have that anywhere.

deepcreek said:

3. My own observations, combined with those of hundreds of volunteers here, as well as FS staff, indicate that almost all resource damage over the years comes from out-of-county visitors. That is a fact. Not all damage is intentional, some comes from ignorance or laziness. Just a couple of examples from the past 2 summer seasons: campfires left unattended or not put out properly, or fires lit during a fire ban; dozens of huge fifth-wheel campers pulling into an unused meadow and permanently scarring the grass while imposing numerous new firerings; cutting live trees for firewood; motorized vehicles creating new tracks offroad.

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I don’t see evidence that this damage is NOT local. Garbage dumping is the most typical local negative impact.

I do believe you are close enough to Denver to see overflow urban impact and I’m guessing that’s your biggest problem. Greater Boulder should be similar.

That’s a distinct demographic from the folks here. Tapping into the help of responsible users would be wise. Your attempt here is acknowledged, but typically the interaction is across the board negative.

I heard the Envision Chaffee presentation to the Democratic San Miguel County Commissioners. I reached out via the website with constructive solutions and received no response. This was before Covid, I believe. .

Lol!!! I’ve been trying to retire almost 20 years! Yes a well managed and thought out LTVA should be encouraged, something like Americorps or the Civilian Conservation Corps working and educating people in those areas on ecologically renewable ways to live on wild lands. I always thought the homestead groups like the earth ship community in New Mexico would be enlisted to solve some of the problem, after all we allow lots of commercial opportunities to take advantage of federal lands why not designate and regulate the same amount of federal lands to solve our housing problems in areas where remote workers could be trained and employed as well. This is basically what my wife and I did several years ago by living in an RV and learning the skills on our own necessary to get jobs working for the National Park Service. Education and opportunity is all that many people need to succeed. Decent health care and guidance would do the rest.

First, thank you everyone for keeping this thread respectful.

bullfrog ! said:

The Long Term Visitor Areas (LTVA) have been very successful for many even though they could be better and better maintained ..... It is good people can live extended periods in the LTVAs several months during the winter. Why not develop LTVAs at higher elevations where they could stay long term during the summer?

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I think summer LTVAs are a good idea but I don't know where they could be located. The higher elevation places are forested, would need to be modified to support a large number of campers, usually under some kind of fire ban, occasional forest fires, all alpine forests are ecologically sensitive. I doubt you would get many takers for 'Quartzite like' places in N & D Dakota, Montana, Wyoming.

DLTooley said:

Going back further recall that the Civilian Conservation Corps actually put people to work during times not all that different from today, in the NFS .....

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Times were very different: depression not recession, skilled workers out of work, hard physical work. Today, few homeless have the skills or endurance to do any meaningful work a la CCC.

DLTooley said:

A third option would be long term work camps near labor starving resort towns, on a local government supported special use permit with GOOD management.
This is real work and it takes someone paid and someone connected with the Community. The NFS needs to do the paying, maybe with a local match

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This is a very good idea. But I don't see why the NFS should pay. This helps the local economy so the resorts or state should cover the costs. The NFS provides the place to camp, the area provides the costs associated with management (with NFS oversight).

Spaceman Spiff said:

I think summer LTVAs are a good idea but I don't know where they could be located.

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When I was poking around I found a very popular free camp area NE of Mammoth CA, just on the E side of 395. Looked pretty awesome, nice forest, easy access, even a few hotsprings near! Obviously it's got the 14 day limit, and I wouldn't advocate a LTVA there, but there is a lot of NFS and BLM at higher elevation. Like you say, you can't just drive across the desert! But they could supply access and some toilets and designated spots.... use an area that isn't much used due to poor access currently.

Spaceman Spiff said:

Today, few homeless have the skills or endurance to do any meaningful work a la CCC.

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Do you have a source?

Sadly several years ago most states and school districts choose to do away with Industrial Arts ( Shop Class ) in their curriculums. Counseling tended to not be motivated to send students that had the ability to excel in the arts to those classes. Vocational Schools in many cases shifted to Medical and Computer oriented courses or specialized local needs programs. Most trades programs are easier if you are healthy and have physical strength but it is not a requirement. With technology and todays tools almost anyone can truly do most anything if they are determined and motivated. You would be surprised how the human body can adapt. I agree there is a problem in our society with the way people with health problems and mental problems are treated. They definitely shouldn’t be forced into the streets to fend for themselves which they are in many cases.

bullfrog ! said:

The Long Term Visitor Areas (LTVA) have been very successful for many even though they could be better and better maintained. Maybe by designating more areas on federal lands closer to towns with strict enforcement and better well maintained facilities and using technology in the rest of the area to insure existing rules and requirements are followed would help people use the lands without destroying them. It is good people can live extended periods in the LTVAs several months during the winter. Why not develop LTVAs at higher elevations where they could stay long term during the summer?

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There are a few long-term campgrounds in the Eastern Sierra of California. The cost is higher than the Arizona LTVAs but it's still a good option. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/long-term-camping-opportunities-available-eastern-sierra

I have moved a lot of off-topic posts over to a new thread, we want to keep those items but they really needed a new thread title.

If you don't find your previous posts here, please look in the new thread:

https://vanlivingforum.com/threads/...-leadville-and-salida-ranger-districts.48319/