You don't need a gun in the wilderness

bullfrog said:

Wonder how many bear attacks that result in a death happen a year in the lower 48 states?

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From Mr.Google:

Around 11 People in North America Die From Attacks by Bears Annually. Since 1900, 61 people have been killed by a black bear in North America. These are the rarest attacks compared to the ones by grizzly bears. In contrast, grizzlies killed 24 people in North America between 2000–2015.

It's not that many compared to other ways of dying but after seeing "The Revenant", a lot of people want to pack an equalizer whether it would actually do any good or not against a grizzly.....

One of my close calls of being shot was my first day in Arizona late night in a gas station getting a Slurpy so I could stay awake to drive. Armed robber at the counter was shot at by all other six people except me including a little old lady that shot a can of green beans above my head trying to get her pistol out of her hand bag. Clerk shot and killed the robber when he turned to return fire but the clerk was wounded twice by people trying to shoot the robber but fortunately lived. Urban Arizona is much more dangerous than any LTVAs in my opinion and experiences. North America includes a lot of places most don’t travel as well. Had a neighbor’s son that hit and killed a bear driving on Interstate 10 at night around Crystal Springs the turn off to Moab Utah so they are around but they mainly avoid humans as there is a hunting season. Probably many more bears killed than humans!

bullfrog said:

a little old lady that shot a can of green beans above my head trying to get her pistol out of her hand bag.

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See, that would be me.
If the robber didn't grab it from me first.

tx2sturgis said:

Just my take: Being prepared is not the same as being fearful.

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This is true... but one thing I've noticed is that most people who aren't long time gun aficionados but insist on carrying "for protection", are in fact fearful. And they aren't prepared. It's more of a placebo... gives a sense of security.

I carried a .357 magnum at first because I had it and it seemed sensible. But after awhile I really thought about it and realized I'd never use it. For a gun to be effective against human and non-human threats, it needs to be loaded and in your hand, ready to fire... at the first sign of *potential* trouble. If it's a human and they pull a gun first, you're screwed... so you pretty much have to draw on everyone you meet! Not happening...

bullfrog said:

One of my close calls of being shot was my first day in Arizona late night in a gas station getting a Slurpy so I could stay awake to drive. Armed robber at the counter was shot at by all other six people except me including a little old lady that shot a can of green beans above my head trying to get her pistol out of her hand bag. Clerk shot and killed the robber when he turned to return fire but the clerk was wounded twice by people trying to shoot the robber but fortunately lived.

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Good lord! You are saying that all 6 people shot but missed?! And I suppose you did nothing at all... when you should have had your phone out filming the whole thing!

^^^It was summer of 1970, what do you mean a camera in a phone! Lol!!! It isn’t unusual for people under stress to miss. In fact it is pretty common. I was too busy trying to get out of in front of the old lady’s gun. I was just glad the wet spot on my head was bean juice not blood! Take a look at some of the police shoot outs in California statistics when they are trying to apprehend shooters armed with AR or AK type of weapons. Usually in apartment complexes or urban settings. Several hundreds of shots fired, ending with a few flesh wounds and after bleeding for a period of time and getting weak the person kills himself rather than being arrested. Crazy but brings up a good point. How many people can shoot accurately enough to do any good under stress? There is a lot of truth in saying “I hope he is aiming at me cause he never hits what he is aiming at!”

rruff said:

I carried a .357 m For a gun to be effective against human and non-human threats, it needs to be loaded and in your hand, ready to fire... at the first sign of *potential* trouble. If it's a human and they pull a gun first, you're screwed... so you pretty much have to draw on everyone you meet! Not happening...

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I disagree.

I dont carry a fire extinguisher at all times yet those can be very effective when needed, as long as they are nearby.

Same with a firearm. If you have it on your person or close by, it can be an effective deterrent.

Guns do not have to always be 'in hand' to be effective...and they are used in self-defense scenarios thousands of times per year.

One source:

https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/firearms/defensive-gun-uses-in-the-us/
But it is up to the individual and of course, they need to be aware of local and state laws and comply with those laws, obviously.

^^^ I really like the map! Some surprising statistics shown there, like where I live remotely much of the time in the Four Corners area no defensive weapon use! And the super “dangerous” life threatening area along the border with Mexico where I usually spend the remainder of the year, little or no defensive weapon use! In fact most areas where BLM and wildlife lands are have little or no defensive weapon use. Looks like most people are shooting at each other in the eastern states and along the coasts, something to consider as well.

Whether you carry or don't carry, remember this.

Your brain and how you use it is much more important to your safety than anything else.

And keep in mind those are 'reported' uses. Probably millions of times a year, a gun is on display in some way, or known about, and everyone behaved themselves, and there is nothing to report.

It is tough to prove the negative.

tx2sturgis said:

One source:

https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/firearms/defensive-gun-uses-in-the-us/
But it is up to the individual and of course, they need to be aware of local and state laws and comply with those laws, obviously.

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Tx, Please grab a better source. Heritage is about as far right as you can get.

tx2sturgis said:

I dont carry a fire extinguisher at all times yet those can be very effective when needed, as long as they are nearby.
you want to
Same with a firearm. If you have it on your person or close by, it can be an effective deterrent.

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A fire isn't someone with a gun aimed at you. Going for your gun then isn't an option... unless you want to die. You aren't going to know if a person will pull out a gun until it's too late. You have to be preemptive... *you* need to pull first.

tx2sturgis said:

And keep in mind those are 'reported' uses. Probably millions of times a year, a gun is on display in some way, or known about, and everyone behaved themselves, and there is nothing to report.

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If guns were so effective at preventing crime, wouldn't you expect crime rates in the US to be low for a developed country rather than one of the highest? And when looking at murder our rate is clearly the highest.
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsphttps://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ranking/crime-rate-statistics
I don't have a problem with people carrying guns, but the idea that they are preventing crime and keeping us safe isn't supported by data.

Oh boy, I thought we were going to have a statistics forum for this, um, stuff.

Or maybe we can move this part of the conversation too the Paranoia thread lol.

Just hate to see a very good thread end up having statistics wars that take up 3 pages and the actual conversation is lost...

I have a problem with many people that are allowed to own and carry guns in this country. Many people seem to overlook the “well regulated” part of the second amendment. Remote living and this lifestyle are attractive to people who have issues they try to live with by avoiding contact with large groups of people. When introducing new employees here at Bullfrog I often state “Everyone here at Bullfrog has issues and if you stay here long enough you will too.” Self inflected death by hand gun is fairly common in areas like this and mild mental illness many times becomes major when the person has little social contact with someone who cares or professional help. Many turn to drugs and alcohol but if a gun is at hand many times you end up dealing with a body instead of a drunk. If you have issues and are aware of them please don’t use self defense as an excuse to get a gun as protection. If you have good days and bad days, if you drink excessively as in got a DUI, ever had a restraining order against you because of your temper or even had thoughts of doing unthinkable things a “normal person” wouldn’t do don’t process a gun or allow yourself access to one for your own good and those around you that may care. I ain’t a doctor but my advice is to go see one and get help before living remotely in the wilderness and being around a firearm 24/7.

Happy Camper said:

Oh boy, I thought we were going to have a statistics forum for this, um, stuff.

Or maybe we can move this part of the conversation too the Paranoia thread lol.

Just hate to see a very good thread end up having statistics wars that take up 3 pages and the actual conversation is lost...

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You are right, its a thread about an opinion piece, after all.

But in my younger days I have actually been on the receiving end of a few personally threatening situations, some involved guns, others involved knives.

In my case, it's not paranoia. I am alive today because I defended myself. No shots were fired.

A handgun DOES have deterrent value.

When I was around humans in a hive situation, (living and working in the city) I was armed around my family. I did have to pull a gun twice. Never had to pull a trigger. In the country I had to shoot a couple of snakes. They did not back down and go rapidly away.

Now I just cary my mouth and talk my way out of city situation in the rare times I need to. I avoid snake county.

Rat snakes are the exception. A 4+ foot keeping our house under construction free of pests.

Thanks everyone for making this thread a really good example of people presenting their view points and passing them on to those that may be considering getting a gun to carry for protection while living this lifestyle. These kinds of threads make me feel good about what goes on here!

My cousins lived in an area where they were warned off of going onto certain properties. One of those was owned by an older gentleman at the time who would load his pellet gun with rock salt and had no problem using it. I guess a few if their friends were recipients of the express rock salt delivery system.

Salt in the wound I was a term I was familiar with.

Salt causing the wound I hadn't heard of. Apparently he aimed low and only hit in the buttock region. Talk about a pain in the ass...

rruff said:

Good lord! You are saying that all 6 people shot but missed?!

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This does not surprise me in the least

dhuff said:

"Others don’t know you—they don’t know your training, demeanor, judgment, or intelligence. All they know is that you have a weapon and, with it, the power to hurt them. And that’s all that truly matters. Guns intimidate." --- Drew Pogge

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Personally, I'm an advocate of concealed carry. When you don't advertise, you're less likely to attract a human predator, and also less likely to send the little wussies into a panic.

A woman YouTuber was in the wilderness when she was attacked by some guy she didn't know. She sped away in her car and he followed her and then proceeded to run her off the road. She made it to a fire station where she got help and the guy was arrested.

Two women were camping in the woods, they mentioned to friends a strange guy was camping near them and they planned to move. There bodies were found a few days later.

I've spoken to quite a few women doing vanlife who had escaped dangerous situations.

That man can write about anything he wants and feel any kind of way he wants, but as long as I'm a solo woman in this country surrounded by other people, I am not safe in the back country.