Keeping warm in sub-freezing weather, using only a tiny amount of fuel for heat.

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CosmickGold

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Arlington, Texas
I just had the good fortune of two nights of 19F cold outside as I slept in my van. I say "good fortune" because it's rare to have a winter where temps ever drop into the teens even once here in Arlington, Texas. These two nights of cold were just what I needed to test my van for winter warmth, and the test was a marvelous success, requiring only a tiny amount of heating fuel.

No one uses electric heat from house batteries to heat their entire van, as the electrical drain would be tremendous, killing the batteries. But I don't need to heat the whole van, I only need heat myself as I sleep. That's the trick, focus on heating yourself, not the whole van. It only takes a tiny fraction of the electricity to heat one person, as it would take to keep an entire van warm.

ww12VSocket.jpg
So yesterday I installed this 12-volt jack on the wall right next to my bed.

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I also bought this 12V electric car blanket to plug into it while I sleep. At bedtime, I set this blanket to medium and wrapped it around my chest over my T-shirt, then put on a comfortable thin-but-insulated jacket and zipped it up over the electric blanket. Then I went to bed under two regular blankets. (It's amazing how much warmer two blankets are than one, regardless of what two blankets you use.)

I also had thick socks on my feet to ensure my toes stayed warm, and insulated gloves on my hands (required by my too-easy-to-chill fingers). Then I slept in total comfort, toasty warm all over! The cold was not uncomfortable to breathe, because my body was so warm. (I cut a small slit in two of the glove fingers so I can still use the touch screen of my cell phone even with the gloves on.)

I'd been concerned I might be wrong about the power draw, and might be about to kill my house batteries before dawn. But checking the gauge in the morning, I found the pull on my batteries had only dropped them 0.2 volts. (What a relief.) Now during the day, the solar panels can bring them right back up again.

Concerned water in the van might freeze, expand, and break containers and pipes, I keep the van about 10 degrees above freezing, ensuring all water stays in the liquid state. So I have a propane furnace with a thermostat on the wall, which I set to 41 degrees F. Set so close to the outside temperature, it requires very little propane to accomplish my goal even when temperatures are in the teens outside.

Planning well ahead for this, I have my van fully insulated on walls and ceiling with HaveLock wool. The metal van floor is covered with a layer of inch-think foam insulation, and that is covered with a layer of white linoleum. This combination makes my floor very soft on my knees. I cringe when I see videos of people putting hardwood floors in their vans, having seen pictures of the damage and callouses done to knees of van dwellers who must crawl over a hard floor every day. My floor actually feels good on my knees when I need to get down there for something.

I have lots of windows for light, but to keep the cold out, I cut a section of that inch-thick foam for each window. These covers are held in place by a bungee cord over each window running from top to bottom over the center of each. Then I place a two-inch-square block of wood under each bungee cord at the window's center to hold that foam insulation firmly against the glass. (Works like a charm.)

Having made all these insulation preparations -- and by keeping the temperature only a little above freezing -- the propane needed to heat my van is as insignificant as my mini electric blanket's drain on my batteries. Warmth in my van is almost free!
_________________________

But be sure to have backup ways of staying warm! I have two propane tanks so if one goes empty, the regulator automatically switches over to the second tank and shows me a red warning that the first tank is empty. (After I refil the first tank, the red warning will show when the second tank goes empty)

But what if batteries go dead and I can't run the furnace? As my furnace backup, I have a little cook stove burner connected to the same propane line, normally shut off both at the stove and at a valve on the wall.

But what if both tanks run out of propane? I doubt I'll ever let that happen; yet to be safe, I have plenty of blankets and warm clothing to put on (plus my little electric blanket to use if I still have electricity).

Cold winters should be fun, not brutal!
 
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Good stuff there.
Should help many. Thanks

Only thing I would offer is a diesel heater instead of a propane heater.
Completely dry, clean heat and very low cost to run.
A 2kw unit would keep temps well above freezing for about 30 cents for 8 hours.
When I run my 5kw diesel heater it costs about 50 cents to top it back up the next morning.
The unit can run all night on 4, 7Amp (max), 3000mAh 18650's in series. Which is next to nothing.
 
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Good stuff there.
Should help many. Thanks

Only thing I would offer is a diesel heater instead of a propane heater.
Completely dry, clean heat and very low cost to run.
A 2kw unit would keep temps well above freezing for about 30 cents for 8 hours.
When I run my 5kw diesel heater it costs about 50 cents to top it back up the next morning.
The unit can run all night on 4, 7Amp (max), 3000mAh 18650's in series. Which is next to nothing.
Is the heater itself next to nothing?
 
Is the heater itself next to nothing?

Sry, but I don't understand your question.
Obviously the heater is very nice.

Do you mean the price of the heater?
If so, the price is competitive at around $125 USd

Maybe you mean the power to run it?
That is to say it requires very little power.
The only thing I would update is that the number of 18650's that would run it "all night" would depend on starting it up once only and then running it on it's lowest setting. That said, I'd probably recommend 8 - 3000mAh - 7A rated 18650's (if someone were going to power it that way)
 
Start a thread. Tell us what you have and what you want to do.
That way all your questions can be answered in one place.
 
I'm a no-frills kind of guy and keep it very simple. I am constantly traveling versus camping in one spot for several days, so my situation is a little different then most of you. I can't sleep with socks and gloves on, but all the power to you if you can. My bed set consists of a sheet, a light blanket, a heavy blanket, and a medium weight sleeping bag that I use as a comforter. As the temperature drops, I add layers. If the temps are supposed to fall below freezing, I have a candle lantern that warms up my cargo van very nicely. As long as the inside of your vehicle is 34 degrees or higher, your water should be fine. If your water lines are inside the walls or cabinet space, you will need to find a way to heat those areas. Even with a space heater, your cabinet doors can keep the heat out. I travel with a 5 gallon jug of water and I wrap it in a blanket while the cab temperature is high. I have woken to frost on the roof of my van from my exhaled breath, but the water was just fine.
 
I think that most people are looking for 2 things when planning for a heater. Those 2 things are 1) cheap and 2) convenient. There are 2 frequent solutions to this inquiry.

One choice is a portable propane heater that you can take out of the box and heat your vehicle with in a matter of minutes. This fits both cheap and convenient.

The next popular choice is a diesel heater, but only if it is made in China (cheap). These take some time and skills to install and provide fairly reliable, clean cheap heat.

Most arguments rage between these 2 and usually hit fever pitch on the topic of condensation from the propane heaters and dry heat from the diesel heaters.

Very few people take the step to install a more expensive, usually European, diesel heater, even though there are many essays and videos pointing out the construction and safety differences between the Chinese and European heaters.

There are many things that almost never enter the discussion.

There are a wide variety of heaters that look almost the same. They include cheap knock-offs and expensive originals that burn diesel, kerosene, gasoline, propane and butane. They all burn the fuel in an enclosed burn chamber, with air pulled in from outside and exhaust that is sent outside. No combustion takes place with air from in the vehicle. No exhaust is expelled into the vehicle. No moisture from combustion stays in the vehicle. It leaves the heater with the exhaust.

There are heaters of all sizes, burning all fuels, for all size vehicles that are vented outside.

I'm just trying to throw a little bit of common sense into your heater plans. For example; if you have a gasoline vehicle, a propane stove and maybe water heater, does it really make sense to carry a jerry can of diesel fuel for you heater? If you have a diesel engine it might make great sense to tap a diesel heater into your vehicle fuel supply.

If you already have propane for cooking or hot water, it might make sense to look at a propane heater. There are many propane heaters of many sizes, starting at around 2000w. If they are of the type directly vented to the outdoors, just like the diesel heaters, they won't put moisture into your air.

Short rant.
Pet peeve.
Thank you.

MG
 
Hmm, if you have frost inside I'd suggest cracking a window to help ventilate to remove the moisture. As it melts it could collect inside the interior fabrics and result in mold. A less effective method could be desiccant containers. Some of those can be reactivated by heating to release the moisture. A small solar oven would do the trick, even a simple folding one with a mirrored surface and an oven bag. This might even work on the dashboard.
 
There are heaters of all sizes, burning all fuels, for all size vehicles that are vented outside.

I'm just trying to throw a little bit of common sense into your heater plans. For example; if you have a gasoline vehicle, a propane stove and maybe water heater, does it really make sense to carry a jerry can of diesel fuel for you heater? If you have a diesel engine it might make great sense to tap a diesel heater into your vehicle fuel supply.

If you already have propane for cooking or hot water, it might make sense to look at a propane heater. There are many propane heaters of many sizes, starting at around 2000w. If they are of the type directly vented to the outdoors, just like the diesel heaters, they won't put moisture into your air.
 
Hi all, my first post so please excuse me if I do it wrong.

I for one would never, never use a portable propane heater in an enclosed space. It depletes the oxygen and the only way to replenish it is to open the doors or windows, thus defeating the purpose.

Too many people have died from doing just that.
 
I keep my cargo trailer 72-degrees in cold weather.... I'm not into breathing cold air and trying to get by too cheap.
 
The metal van floor is covered with a layer of inch-think foam insulation, and that is covered with a layer of white linoleum. This combination makes my floor very soft on my knees. I cringe when I see videos of people putting hardwood floors in their vans, having seen pictures of the damage and callouses done to knees of van dwellers who must crawl over a hard floor every day.
Does the foam insulation eventually fill the dips in floors that have ridges? Like pickup truck beds and many cargo vans? Or is it firm enough to stay atop the ridges? I ask because I recently watched a YT vid where the guy used plywood sheeting for his floor and said one benefit is that if water ever gets inside his pickup, all he has to do is park it on an incline. Made sense to me, because I tend to buy leaky campers:)
 
"Made sense to me, because I tend to buy leaky campers:)"
You would be amazed how fast you can get mold in a wet camper! My "cramper" leaked during my road trip last year and one week after I got home I discovered mold on my bed platform. My suggestion is to get out your garden hose and spray that sucker down to find any leaks and fix them, even before you start any build-out. It's a LOT more work after you've got everything in there.
 
"Made sense to me, because I tend to buy leaky campers:)"
You would be amazed how fast you can get mold in a wet camper! My "cramper" leaked during my road trip last year and one week after I got home I discovered mold on my bed platform. My suggestion is to get out your garden hose and spray that sucker down to find any leaks and fix them, even before you start any build-out. It's a LOT more work after you've got everything in there.
I know. And yes, the new used topper leaks. Every window needs to be popped out and new seals put in. I bought the gasket (foam stripping) that goes between the topper and bed rails. The old seal is so dry you can break off pieces in chunks. Like hard, brittle plastic. It is mostly missing.

First thing I did was take it through a car wash. Next day it rained pretty hard. I'm assuming the water came in through the window seals, but maybe not having a seal under the topper caused it. At any rate, it needs all new seals.

I need to get to southern Illinois, because my daughter down there knows ppl who can help me and not charge an arm & a leg.

Once I get it water tight, then the fun begins:)
 
Hi all, my first post so please excuse me if I do it wrong.

I for one would never, never use a portable propane heater in an enclosed space. It depletes the oxygen and the only way to replenish it is to open the doors or windows, thus defeating the purpose.

Too many people have died from doing just that.
Definitely heat your vehicle anyway you want but propane heaters like the Mr. Buddy, Mr. Buddy Jr, Black Cat, etc work great in a car and are perfectly safe as long as you crack the windows. Even with the windows cracked, they will warm the vehicle just fine. I used my Black Cat in a 6 person tent, which is basically using it outside, and stayed warm. The main issue I have with them is the level of moisture they release into the air so there needs to be a lot of air flow in the vehicle or/and something to absorb the moisture.
 
When it does get cold (below 35 degrees) in the south and southwest, how long does it stay cold (daytime temps)? A week or longer? I've never lived in a warm climate.
 
Does the foam insulation eventually fill the dips in floors that have ridges? Like pickup truck beds and many cargo vans? Or is it firm enough to stay atop the ridges? I ask because I recently watched a YT vid where the guy used plywood sheeting for his floor and said one benefit is that if water ever gets inside his pickup, all he has to do is park it on an incline. Made sense to me, because I tend to buy leaky campers:)
It has been nearly three years and I've not noticed any dipping into those ridges, though they are certainly there to give the metal floor more strength. What does happen is the dents from chair and table legs have a tendency to become permanent.

Regarding water leaks, I hear that vans are relatively safe from rain water getting in, walls and roof construction being one-piece, strong and solid. But all these rigs with aluminum siding screwed or rivited on the outside and similarly constructed roofs, such as slide-sn campers and motorhomes of any size, will wiggle until they eventually spring rain leaks.
 
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This reminds me I still have a 12v electric jacket I wore under my leather jacket when riding a motorcycle in cold weather. Gloves too. I installed 12v outlets at either end of my bed. I was going to sell it along with other motorcycle gear, but just realized it may come in handy for this use.
 
re -- propane appliances indoors
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Real-world... not theory/guessing nor book-learning nor second-hand information:
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We heat with a Wave 3 catalytic heater.
Irregardless of outside temperature, we always open two windows on opposing walls.
The escaping heat carries humidity plus odors, and constantly refreshes our breathing air.
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2003, we constructed our ExpeditionVehicle based on property-sitting gigs in newer 'tight' stand-still houses with dual-pane sliders compared to ancient abodes with rattley single-pane push-up windows.
Discussing this prior to the build, we quickly concluded we like the facsimile of the outdoors -- lots of fresh air -- while indoors reading or snoozing.
For us, the amount of propane consumed in a 'loose' rig compared to a 'tight' rig... miniscule.
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And I must emphasize -- open the windows!
Delaying our untimely demise from the horrors of suffocation, we supplement our air-exchange with two CO detectors from different manufacturers.
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Based solely on the heat-loss part of the equation, a 'loose' rig with open windows probably seems primitive.
Ooga booga!
 
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